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Thread: Supports ≠ healbots

  1. #1
    Beta Player Knight driggydrug's Avatar
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    Supports ≠ healbots

    In ob68 devs decreased healer's HP/sustain/mobility and increased their healing output , that change was absolutely terrible.
    They turned supports into fragile easykills healbots that heal a lot but die quickly.
    This change makes no sense because
    1) it promotes the burst meta, the most terrible meta for paladins.
    2) it promotes a dumb, braindead and boring playstyle : the healbot one

    Why supports aren't named healers? Because they should help the team and survive (maybe by appling CC like grover) , not only heal and die.
    And right now if the healers die the entire team get bursted quickly.
    Supports are too fragile and easy to kill, their hp should be unnerfed , same for their mobility (everyone should receive an HP and mobility unnerf , HP and mobility nerf + damage buffs made the meta change in worse... now with burst meta ttk is too low, flankers are just damage dealers) , their healing output should be decreased to compensate.


    Grover

    HP 2300 --> 2600

    Damage 300 --> 560

    Bonus damage scaling value 150% --> 80% (so damage at max range 750 --> 1008)

    Throwing axe moviment speed 350 --> 260

    Bloosom healing 900 --> 850

    Unstoppable damage reduction 6/12/18/24/32% --> 5/10/15/20/25 %* for 4 --> 3 sec


    Grohk

    HP 2200 --> 2600

    Damage 75 --> 60* ( max damage 60 + 30% = 75)

    Shok pulse damage 150 --> 100* but now applies a little slow

    Totem
    Increased radius
    Health 1000 --> 2500
    Lasts 6 --> 15 sec
    Cooldown 15 --> 20 sec
    Now has a animation of totem that comes out from the ground of 0.4 sec

    In this way totem will become a big healing source to place on point in the right moment that can heal a lot and sustain tanks. Since it lasts more time and it has more HP it will be focused more and this will probably increase bulldozer pickrate.

    Ghost walk duration 1 sec --> 2 sec

    Phantom: bonus duration of ghost walk {0.3|0.3} sec --> {0.2|0.2} sec

    Shamanic might bonus HP {100|100} --> {50|50}

    Spirit's domain : Your Lightning Staff now also heals allies for 900 --> 1000 health a second and it has increased range


    Furia

    HP 2200 --> 2500

    Kindle soul Burst healing 1000 --> 900 + additional healing 500 --> 400

    Wings of wrath : increased range and now it can travel in every direction (horizontal and vertical and it's not a backward dash anymore) , holding space bar after using wings of wrath will make furia plane.

    Solar blessing: it's a very risky talent that works with teamwork and good positioning but it's very rewarding in terms of healing.
    With sustain buffs it can work better but its healing output must be reduced
    Pyrestrike healing 300 every 0.05 sec --> 150 every 0.05

    Exterminate: Pyre Strike it's 50% faster and if it hits an enemy it stops moving until its duration ends.

    Furia's wings of wrath isn't a good excape compared to vine, shadow travel, ghost walk, weightless or even slither, little pyreballs aren't even that impactful in terms of damage.
    Since furia is very fragile, her excape is bad, her pyre strike is easy to avoid, she has no self healing but she heals a lot, I can consider her 100% healbot.
    Her damage is fine, but she needs to be more resilient... however , her healing output must be reduced to compensate the sustain buffs and put it in line with other healers.


    Jenos:

    HP 2200 --> 2400

    Astral wind : it has no more cooldown

    Luminary : bonus damage 15% --> 10%

    Jenos' bonus damage it's too much for an ability with so much duration time.


    Seris:

    2200 --> 2400

    She's fine, her HP talent is really useful , her excape is very effective and her self healing is great
    However a small default HP increase is needed for every damager and healer

    Pip:

    HP 2200 --> 2400

    Combat medic rework : you can now double jump during weightless and its duration is increased by 2 sec

    Potion launcher: now also heals allies for 700 per shot


    Mal d'amba:

    HP 2200 --> 2450

    Slither : you can now control its direction

    Erie presence
    Reduce the Cooldown on Mending Spirits by {0.5|0.5}s --> {0.3|0.3} if you miss

    This card is in every deck because it basically deletes every mistake you make with mending spirits.
    Damba is a rly skill based champion so a rightclick miss should be slightly punished.
    After a small nerf this card will reduce the cooldown by 1.5 at 5 points which is still a great effect.

    Wekono's curse: meding spirits damage increased 560 --> 650* , now it also apply a slow

    Wekono's curse is a great damage talent but it isn't as rewarding as wekono's wrath, a spammable 1100 burst combo that stuns enemies and forces them into resilience.


    Ying

    (She is my least played healer so fix my suggestions if they're not good)

    HP 2200 --> 2350

    Reduced falloff and damage increased 90 --> 110 per tick.

    Dimentional link : postifire 0.5 --> 0.1

    Illusion healing 420 --> 380

    Resonance: now it also heals allies for 500 if illusion get shattered or destroyed


    Thank you for reading, can't wait for valkure's answer lol.
    Last edited by driggydrug; 06-11-2019 at 12:02 PM.

  2. #2
    Beta Player Emperor Valkure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by driggydrug View Post
    Thank you for reading, can't wait for valkure's answer lol.
    ¬_¬

    First of all, no, I swear, I haven't paid him for opening this thread. Really.
    Second: useless to repeat that I completely share the opinion. In general, I find healing-bot the most nonsensical thing to play and I hate being defenseless against enemies because supports are balanced in order to depend from the team and everything else (especially flankers) is balanced for melting enemies on its own.
    Just to clarify my point, if someone likes to play healing bot, s/he should be allowed to that. We have a talent and card system, which is what makes this game great, that should allow 3 different play styles (namely healing-bot, hybrid and full dmg), but we all know the main problem that I indicate as
    Basic kit 50 dmg and 50 heals
    Healing build 50 dmg and 200 heals
    Dmg build 80 dmg and 50 heals
    [random numbers just to give the idea]. That means that going dmg or hybrid implies giving up on tons of heals while getting low dmg increase. Plus your whole team going afk, you know...

    And now, let's comment on the champs.

    I start with Ying. First of all, there are some issues that must be addressed. The dim link and shatter bug (as explained here http://forums.paladins.com/showthrea...nk-not-working ) and the new bug confirmed yesterday, that when you shatter, many times clones stay there for double or triple the time they should, before exploding. If we keep this pace, Ying will seriously endanger Pip's position as "the most bugged in the game".
    I think Ying needs Focusing Lens back in basic kit, as it has always been and, of course, the dim link pre-fire unnerfed. Also, Brittle should be unnerfed, for it was totally idiotic to nerf it in order to fix LE.
    I don't think she needs a healing buff. Once supports will be fixed, everyone's healing output will be reduced, so her state as she is would be ok.
    In general, I will ALWAYS be against making Resonance also healing, when destroying clones. It would not be OP. It would be simply GAMEBREAKING. Bomb Ying would be able to win a game on her own, so, no, leave Resonance as it is. If you really want to buff it, just give us back the explosions at the end of the ulti, in the last position of the ally.

    About Grover. I like the basic concept: you are adding up to his dmg, while reducing dmg-red card and healing output. But I think the long-range dmg would be too much. Grover has 2 main problems: Vine bug (...) and short-range dmg. At short range he's dead for he can't deal enough dmg, nor escape due to Vine problem. His short range dmg has been nerfed, time ago, so I'd say to unnerf it and finally fix Vine.
    Also because Grover can heal for proximity and making him useful only when sniping from a roof is not a good solution for the team.
    I think axe speed doesn't need a nerf, because it's already slow enough to be dodgeable. Maybe he could use 10% of basic speed increase, just to be able to keep the pace with team, without buying Nimble 3.


    On Grohk. Said that dmg Grohk is the only viable dmg-support at the moment, I disagree with your totem modification. I personally play healing Grohk with the opposite concept: move totem as much as you can to help team while pushing. Health, radius and duration are fine (you already have cards to pimp them), I'd lower the cd of 1 or 2 sec in basic kit. Ok also for the basic kit increase (but nerf on the card) on ghost walk duration.
    Send Spirit's Domain in the trash bin (sorry, Geste), it's just too bad.

    About Furia, I don't want her healing bot anymore. She was fine at release (she could be a monster, but was an easy-kill at short range). Now she's just easy kill. She just needs unnerf. I agree that Solar Blessing heals too much. I'd rework it as you can press again Q to stop it, so the allies can walk to it to get healed (many times the beam just walk in the middle of team without even stopping!), with a decrease in healing numbers.
    But, Furia must get 20% basic speed bonus. Let her heal less but be more mobile. And let her use spacebar to fly, as Drogoz. She's an angle with wings, for heaven sake!

    Jenos is picked ONLY for bonus dmg. I agree that should go from 15 to 10%, but it must apply also to himself (as it was). Then remove cd on Astral Wind and give him back his old speed. I cannot be followed by holding-the-LMB Shalin while I escape with my F, it's just too stupid. Unnerf also basic dmg that has been nerfed for balancing Binary Star (...) at that time and then never reverted, even after Binary Star nerf.
    PS: I want to see also Torvald's 30% bonus dmg reduced. Seriously, it's insane, especially with also a shield.

    I think Seris is ok, I would not touch her.

    There are many main Pip here around, so I will wait for their comment. In general, I don't like the idea that LMB heals allies by default.
    Good job in bringing back old Acrobatics (flank Pip will be back), but not with 2 sec extra duration. I saw what zVersee could do with that O.O 2 sec extra and he will win alone against 5.

    About Damba and sweet Augusto... you CAN control Slither direction, you know?
    I would not touch Eerie Presence. They tried. It fails. Leave that as it is.
    Ok for some extra dmg on Wekono's Curse, but I would not add the slow. Instead, I would bring back the slow effect on Gourd. It was fun.
    I've finally found it!

    New to the forum? Have a look >>>here<<<! Some useful answers.

    #AggressiveSupports
    I'm tired of repeating the same things, watch this: link

    "It's just Casual/ Go Ranked if you want a decent team/You are low tier, so you're bad." Rage

  3. #3
    Member Baronet buoy's Avatar
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    SIDE NOTE,

    YOU FORGOT TO TAKE FEROCITY INTO ACCOUNT WHEN CHANGING GROVERS AXE.

    Iirc it adds a 70% increase in something?

    Also I think most people would prefer celerity than a buffed exterminate

    also something might need to be done with from above, Pip weightless cdr, pretty weak now,

    but it might be too much (if buffed) with your proposed CM change.

    (hope acrobatics comes back.)

    (personally I don't understand how someone enjoys playing a healbot, damba is an exception because the flank gets stunned feared and bursted down when they were expecting a free kill.)

    Also @valkure

    "Ying will seriously endanger Pip's position as "the most bugged in the game"."

    didn't his main bugs get fixed?
    Last edited by buoy; 06-12-2019 at 06:39 AM.

  4. #4
    Beta Player Knight driggydrug's Avatar
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    My idea with grover was to make him a real projectile champion. Throwing his axes rn feels so strange, it looks like I'm shooting paper balls.
    I wanted to make axes more consistent at close range , where the speed nerf doesn't matter and powerful but hard to hit at long range like it used to be.
    Probably 1008 damage without ferocity is too much

    I agree with @buoy , after a buff for wings of wrath, old celerity would be a better talent!
    I prefer a mobility talent instead of exterminate
    I also agree with @Valkure , furia has goddamn wings, she should be more agile! Let her fly like drogoz booster, a flying support looks so fun!
    Wings of wrath buff + celerity back + flight added in basekit + HP buff + healing nerf will make her much more enjoyable.

    Seris is ok but she still needs an HP buff to make this dumb meta die.
    And she's not the only one ofc. Bk, drogoz, all healers, nando and more! We need less damage, more HP and more mobility.
    This treatment will automatically turn flankers into real flankers and healers into real supports (as I said in the thread).

  5. #5
    Beta Player Emperor Valkure's Avatar
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    @ Buoy: a suggestion. Contact CatManDude and ask about Pip's bug list. But keep your distance, because there's serious probability he would explode rage-induced :-P

    @Driggy: send a PM to Averey, he's THE Furia main here around, he has some great suggestions for adapting her play styles to different situations.
    I've finally found it!

    New to the forum? Have a look >>>here<<<! Some useful answers.

    #AggressiveSupports
    I'm tired of repeating the same things, watch this: link

    "It's just Casual/ Go Ranked if you want a decent team/You are low tier, so you're bad." Rage

  6. #6
    Member Baronet buoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkure View Post
    @ Buoy: a suggestion. Contact CatManDude and ask about Pip's bug list. But keep your distance, because there's serious probability he would explode rage-induced :-P

    @Driggy: send a PM to Averey, he's THE Furia main here around, he has some great suggestions for adapting her play styles to different situations.

    @valkure

    Funny story......

    I pmed him a few weeks ago on wheter or not he could remove the potion bug from the thread since it was fixed, he says the thread is out of date and *he isn't all that active here.

    *does not seem to be the case anymore.

    why would he explode with rage?

    also do the @s do anything?

  7. #7
    Beta Player Emperor Valkure's Avatar
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    @ is just for getting the attention of the reader. I should use quotation, but being on mobile it's a mess, so @ solve many problems.
    About the exploding rage, it was because Pip has that roughly thirty bugs that has not been fixed for YEARS and when finally they declared that they were fixed... they weren't ^^'
    I've finally found it!

    New to the forum? Have a look >>>here<<<! Some useful answers.

    #AggressiveSupports
    I'm tired of repeating the same things, watch this: link

    "It's just Casual/ Go Ranked if you want a decent team/You are low tier, so you're bad." Rage

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    Beta Player Grand Prince M3RC3N4RI0's Avatar
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    I disagree about luminary. This Talent should be completely removed together with Torvald's bubble slave Talents. Talents should in general not buff teammates but buff the own champion. Buff for others have the disadvantage that they are so effective that it's the only viable Talent for the champions who have those and reduce those champs to bubble-bots or luminary-bots. It's no fun to play Luminary-Jenos and it's no fun to play against Luminary-Jenos. So please delete.

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    Beta Player Prince CatManDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by driggydrug View Post
    Pip:

    HP 2200 --> 2400

    Combat medic rework : you can now double jump during weightless and its duration is increased by 2 sec

    Potion launcher: now also heals allies for 700 per shot
    This would promote two things. Healbot playstyles, and the awful 'pip flank' meme taking 300% effect. Just gonna plug my thread here, as Pip is currently fine, save for his healing talents right now.
    Protect your supports please... They want support too!
    Support main/Pip main. Greatest healing: 230,070 | Current goal: 200,000 achieved! Take a look at it! Woohoo!

    Just a silly idea

    Support Pip guide here!

    Fix the Pip bugs! There are 40 of them, so can we fix them please?

  10. #10
    Beta Player Knight driggydrug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CatManDude View Post
    This would promote two things. Healbot playstyles, and the awful 'pip flank' meme taking 300% effect. Just gonna plug my thread here, as Pip is currently fine, save for his healing talents right now.
    What's wrong with pip flank? It's fun and it works, double jump could be a good alternative to catalyst.
    Catalyst = damage pip, acrobatics = flank pip.
    (Even if the flank concept has been fucked thanks to the burst meta, the flanker is the high risk high reward character with high mobility and medium damage, not a spammy bursty damage dealer... and acrobatics fits this role well)

    Most of damage/flank playstyle talents that healers have are just trollpicks! Look at binary star, exterminate, wekono's curse, focussing lents... they suck!

    And why does combat medic in basekit promote healbot playstyle?
    Last edited by driggydrug; Yesterday at 03:44 AM.

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