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Thread: Supports ≠ healbots

  1. #11
    Beta Player Prince CatManDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by driggydrug View Post
    What's wrong with pip flank? It's fun and it works, double jump could be a good alternative to catalyst.
    Catalyst = damage pip, acrobatics = flank pip.
    (Even if the flank concept has been fucked thanks to the burst meta, the flanker is the high risk high reward character with high mobility and medium damage, not a spammy bursty damage dealer... and acrobatics fits this role well)

    Most of damage/flank playstyle talents that healers have are just trollpicks! Look at binary star, exterminate, wekono's curse, focussing lents... they suck!

    And why does combat medic in basekit promote healbot playstyle?
    The thing that's wrong about Pip being a flank, is that it's mostly a meme. It worked way back when legendaries were first added because flanks worked differently back then, being more about mobility and lesser DPS, really only worked because he was somewhat like Buck back then. Once acrobatics was removed when mobility started to get lowered, it wasn't something that worked all that well, and he was mostly just a DPS that is in Cassie's position: Able to overextend a bit, and can only really do a flank if no one is paying attention.

    In all seriousness, if Acrobatics was re-added, it would be a talent that would see use in casual, for people wanting to relive old times, but it wouldn't really work as well. Imagine if they kept Buck's old kit, and just lowered his health a ton. That's essentially what Pip would be with that. So, weak damage, a slow, and decent mobility.

    And combat medic in base kit would make people basically only be shooting their primary fire at allies. A lot of people now seem to see supports as this healbot, and a 'if I don't have high heals I threw' sort of mentality. They would most likely just spam at allies to heal them, much like people do with life exchange ying: Perch super far back and heal. And if you also buff the amount in which it heals, it's more than likely going to be more encouraged to spam your heals on allies.
    Protect your supports please... They want support too!
    Support main/Pip main. Greatest healing: 230,070 | Current goal: 200,000 achieved! Take a look at it! Woohoo!

    Just a silly idea

    Support Pip guide here!

    Fix the Pip bugs! There are 40 of them, so can we fix them please?

  2. #12
    Beta Player Knight Vimora's Avatar
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    I mostly agree with your suggestions, but i think that the healing nerfs and sustain buffs aren't that balanced out. I think Ying would be fine if you dont touch her healing, but Grover's damage and Pips LMB buffs are a bit too much. I dont think combat medic should be in base kit at all. I think you forgot to mention ferocity.

    I don't think grohk should be touched. He's a really good damage support and eh when he goes full healing, if you mess with him it's going to effect his overall feel a lot. Damba too, he's one of the most balanced champions in the game so i think he should be left as is. A simple HP buff should be fine for him.
    Small Information Below

    Mainly a support player, but i play a few others

    Tank : Inara, Torvald, Ash
    Support : Literally Everything
    Flank : Evie (Badly)
    Damage : Kinessa, Lian, Cassie

  3. #13
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    Supports are a very wierd bunch to balance.

    Not only do you have to balence the effectiveness of their team recovery methods, you have to understand what value certain abilities provide and balence them as well.
    There has to be a general theisis on the perfomance levels of these champions utility as a whole.

    Supports do a bit of everything in most cases.
    How do you balence that...

    I know for a fact that supports are meant to come with the games best escape/chase dynamics.

    Gotta say jenos came with a mobility that needed to favour jump height and air control by default over speed to match the escape options of other characters in his class, jenos would benefit being able to get to higber terrain by default without as much card investment making the ability a tad more useful after the nerf.

    Furia was dealt with the worst mobility out of the lot of them, something that favoured her more as a duelist, over a realiable team support, but to make up for it they gave her a psudo powerful heal mechanic with a gimmicky catch system... honestly furia was rushed... infact most of them were... Furia's beam is good but half baked, her ult and mobility need a good look at, mobility needs more options.

    Supports that I favour can act as damage suppressors by default without talents, if grover and ying had access to their attack talent features then they would have more priority to attack and contribute to fighting to make an impact. Jenos ought to get a wepon attack damage mechanic by default to make his smg more interesting and unique to fire, on top of that his weapon and attack talent should at least assist his suppression damage. Supports should not feel like a closet shut in to play.

  4. #14
    Member Baron buoy's Avatar
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    @ayydimitri "honestly furia was rushed... infact most of them were.."

    The worst part is how long it takes for the devs to make another support only to make them into a healbot.

    Ying,Seris,Jenos, and Solar Blessing the champion.

    hopefully Io won't be like that.

  5. #15
    Beta Player Baronet driggydrug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CatManDude View Post
    The thing that's wrong about Pip being a flank, is that it's mostly a meme. It worked way back when legendaries were first added because flanks worked differently back then, being more about mobility and lesser DPS, really only worked because he was somewhat like Buck back then. Once acrobatics was removed when mobility started to get lowered, it wasn't something that worked all that well, and he was mostly just a DPS that is in Cassie's position: Able to overextend a bit, and can only really do a flank if no one is paying attention.

    In all seriousness, if Acrobatics was re-added, it would be a talent that would see use in casual, for people wanting to relive old times, but it wouldn't really work as well. Imagine if they kept Buck's old kit, and just lowered his health a ton. That's essentially what Pip would be with that. So, weak damage, a slow, and decent mobility.

    And combat medic in base kit would make people basically only be shooting their primary fire at allies. A lot of people now seem to see supports as this healbot, and a 'if I don't have high heals I threw' sort of mentality. They would most likely just spam at allies to heal them, much like people do with life exchange ying: Perch super far back and heal. And if you also buff the amount in which it heals, it's more than likely going to be more encouraged to spam your heals on allies.
    Ok, I get your point.
    What I'm trying to say is that flankers and healers concepts must be reverted and improved.
    When I talked about flankers I said that they should work like they used to be : LOWER/MEDIUM DAMAGE and GOOD MOBILITY
    Right now we can't even consider them flankers, the only ones that can still flank without spamming op burst and being braindead are evie and meave.
    The first thing that must be done is REVERT FLANKERS!
    After flankers are fixed healers can be improved and reverted too.
    Let's be honest, both of theese classes have been ruined because of TTK decrease and MOBILITY nerfs... basically the burst meta is what caused bad balancement and gameplay problems.
    And how should burst meta die??
    Revert all the HP nerf, nerf crazy burst and revert mobility.
    And this reasoning must be applied on everyone, not only healers and flankers (which are the 2 classes that suffer more right now).
    As you said, in a better meta, flank pip could work well.
    In this meta an old flank alone can't do anything.

  6. #16
    Beta Player Baronet driggydrug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buoy View Post
    hopefully Io won't be like that.
    Can I have more info about io?
    HP, damage, mobility, healing etc...
    I only know she has a bow

  7. #17
    Beta Player Emperor Valkure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M3RC3N4RI0 View Post
    Buff for others have the disadvantage that they are so effective that it's the only viable Talent for the champions who have those and reduce those champs to bubble-bots or luminary-bots. It's no fun to play Luminary-Jenos and it's no fun to play against Luminary-Jenos
    Amen.
    I completely agree. The only good thing of that talent (+15% bonus on Jenos himself) has been removed, so...
    Jenos is one of the first ban in ranked not for him being good, but for him being a buff-slave to others. The funny part? Since he's always banned, he would probably be nerfed on base kit, when the only bad thing of him is the bonus to others.

    @CatManDude: yes, the game has changed in the meanwhile, but since these threads are restless dreaming, there's written no where we can ask also for that.
    I mean, Acrobatics would be good only if linked to a buff on HP/dmp/mobility/whatever? Good, then we will ask also for that. You are experienced on Pip, write down some data we could work on.
    I've finally found it!

    New to the forum? Have a look >>>here<<<! Some useful answers.

    #AggressiveSupports
    I'm tired of repeating the same things, watch this: link

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  8. #18
    Beta Player Prince CatManDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by driggydrug View Post
    Ok, I get your point.
    What I'm trying to say is that flankers and healers concepts must be reverted and improved.
    When I talked about flankers I said that they should work like they used to be : LOWER/MEDIUM DAMAGE and GOOD MOBILITY
    Right now we can't even consider them flankers, the only ones that can still flank without spamming op burst and being braindead are evie and meave.
    The first thing that must be done is REVERT FLANKERS!
    After flankers are fixed healers can be improved and reverted too.
    Let's be honest, both of theese classes have been ruined because of TTK decrease and MOBILITY nerfs... basically the burst meta is what caused bad balancement and gameplay problems.
    And how should burst meta die??
    Revert all the HP nerf, nerf crazy burst and revert mobility.
    And this reasoning must be applied on everyone, not only healers and flankers (which are the 2 classes that suffer more right now).
    As you said, in a better meta, flank pip could work well.
    In this meta an old flank alone can't do anything.
    I agree with this, with most flank characters. There are some that are currently in a good position, but get outshined either due to other flanks being simply better (I.E Buck). Flanks like Andro and Lex I will agree need some reworks to make them feel moreso like what a flank should be, and less like a budget DPS. Additionally, you bring this up because I said Pip doesn't work as a flank currently. Even if the biggest issues of flanks were to be reajusted to actually be more like a flank, Pip would still be a watered down Buck, which is fine. He was always intended to be a DPS/Support hybrid, and not a flank. If anything, his DPS play style can be more similar to Cassie, where she is able to go up and retreat if needed, except Cassie has too much that enables her to be a bit too aggressive without too much of a worry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valkure View Post
    @CatManDude: yes, the game has changed in the meanwhile, but since these threads are restless dreaming, there's written no where we can ask also for that.
    I mean, Acrobatics would be good only if linked to a buff on HP/dmp/mobility/whatever? Good, then we will ask also for that. You are experienced on Pip, write down some data we could work on.
    The issue is, Pip doesn't need any buffs to damage or anything. I'm simply stating that to make Acrobatics work, you have to rework too much for it to even work, which would really mean to force it into the game once again. As I've stated, Pip is in a solid spot for the DPS builds, and doesn't need a flank build (ever since his rework to support, he was a DPS/Support hybrid). If anything, the only buffs that Pip actually need, are to his healing builds. Hell, his actual damage build could be knocked down a peg, and he would still be in a good position.
    Protect your supports please... They want support too!
    Support main/Pip main. Greatest healing: 230,070 | Current goal: 200,000 achieved! Take a look at it! Woohoo!

    Just a silly idea

    Support Pip guide here!

    Fix the Pip bugs! There are 40 of them, so can we fix them please?

  9. #19
    Beta Player Baronet driggydrug's Avatar
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    Guys unfortunatelly io is going to have 2200 trash HP but you know what??
    I will use the 200 hp bonus card + the gravity one + the shield one during the leap + a cooldown reduction for the leap + the luna talent that saves your ass every 60 sec.
    FULL SUSTAIN BOISS!!!

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