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Thread: How to deal with 2-3 flankers on the enemy team

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    How to deal with 2-3 flankers on the enemy team

    Greetings,
    I have one question: how to deal with 2-3 flankers on the enemy team when playing a support (I play Mal'damba mostly). If there is one flanker, I normally can deal with them pretty easily, but if there are 2-3, which in casual is oftentimes the case, I get killed in the first 2 two minutes of the match or so. I even tell my teammates: Guys, there are 2/3 flankers on the enemy team. Please watch out for them, or they'll just kill me. And still if frequently happens that my entire team gets wiped out by the flankers. So how to deal with such a situation as a support?

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    Beta Player Baron Leafstorm's Avatar
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    I usually try to stay closer to my team. One thing I learned is that nobody ever listens, so if i stay next to an ally then either the flanks are gonna have to be more careful or that ally will actually notice them too.

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    Beta Player Prince IamRick1996's Avatar
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    3 methods for it
    1. Stay near your dps ally and let him handle that problem for you
    2. if the enemy flankers is far too good for your ally to handle. just go "fuck it", handle it yourself and hope for the best the you could win at least one fight
    3. if the enemy flankers are truly far to good. ask the entire team to go "fuck it" and collapse on that flanker
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    Beta Player Marquess TangAce's Avatar
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    stop healin start killing
    also you can just go on point near tank lmao
    but anyway when teammates aren't doing anything useful...not much one can do, all these players with big stats but in the end they never helped anyone nor did something useful

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    Beta Player Emperor Valkure's Avatar
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    1) play Bomb Ying. After the 2nd time you’ve killed them all, they would look for your tank, instead
    2) ask for team to help. Of course they wouldn’t, and that’s why you will come to number 3
    3) come here, on Reddit, on AoC pages and ask FOR THE DAMN FLANKERS TO BE NERFED AND SUPPORTS TO BE UNNERFED, the hell, this game is shit-balanced with burst meta. And they had a long time to fix it. You cannot win a 1vs1 if you’re a support, go, figure, if they are in 3.
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    Beta Player Marquess TangAce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkure View Post
    1) play Bomb Ying. After the 2nd time you’ve killed them all, they would look for your tank, instead
    2) ask for team to help. Of course they wouldn’t, and that’s why you will come to number 3
    3) come here, on Reddit, on AoC pages and ask FOR THE DAMN FLANKERS TO BE NERFED AND SUPPORTS TO BE UNNERFED, the hell, this game is shit-balanced with burst meta. And they had a long time to fix it. You cannot win a 1vs1 if you’re a support, go, figure, if they are in 3.
    flankers ain't the problem my friend, damages are
    flankers have been nerfed so so much, now zhin gonna be nerfed as well (i like that nerf anyway)
    but lian getting a buff (how is that hapening wtf) bk still destroying anyone, not talking bout imani either, and so on
    maybe team would help a bit more if they weren't getting destroyed by damage, while a great flank might 1v1 a bad healer, it's not that easy if the support plays good, well ofc assuming they ain't healing bots
    and supports can carry games at least for a part, an amazing support can change everything
    only damage aren't relying on the team to carry anyway, a support needs the team to help, flanks need to have space to operate, tanks ofc need a support ...but damage...they can do whatever they want, nerf damage
    nerf damage god damnit x)

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    Member Marquess Averey's Avatar
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    To the OP - run for your life. There is not much you can do vs 2-3 flanks all seeing in you an easy to kill target (I usually do when I play flank myself), if you are going supportive then one flank if used right can kill you with not much trouble for the flank depending on the pick.

    As support, you are the most team dependant class in the game, ask for their help. Unfortunately, the supports are more often then not left to survive for themselves and receive no help from their teammates, while it is expected of them mostly to fill the role of a complete healer, which makes you very much defenseless against anyone else. Valkure is right - we need to ask for supports to have a viable offensive role as well, not just as healbots.


    Quote Originally Posted by TangAce View Post
    flankers ain't the problem my friend, damages are
    Both pose a problem in the current state, really, flanks even more so because they combine insanely high burst damage output together with plentyful options of intense survivability/mobility/phasing you name it, which makes flanks outplay dps (supports are currently plenty much fodder with just two exceptions).

    In the burst meta state it makes flanks the most important pick along with the dps as they are the soure of the burst damage. Often so the fight is won by the team which has a better flank, not the better support.

    Quote Originally Posted by TangAce View Post
    flankers have been nerfed so so much, now zhin gonna be nerfed as well (i like that nerf anyway)
    I remember how much flanks were buffed in the recent time - Zhin got buffed, Koga was buffed to the point of making the previous burst meta seem childs play with his claws spam - and it is still unchanged, he still does the same damage&range, Moji buff for 1850 dps and so on. The nerfs did not touch the damage they do, nor does the current nerf impede Zhin even because he gets compensational buffs together for his benefit - something which other champions did not receive in any form.

    Quote Originally Posted by TangAce View Post
    maybe team would help a bit more if they weren't getting destroyed by damage, while a great flank might 1v1 a bad healer, it's not that easy if the support plays good, well ofc assuming they ain't healing bots
    and supports can carry games at least for a part, an amazing support can change everything
    That is an old topic, but I have to disagree with you here Tang. Supports enable the teammates, but enabling does not mean carrying. I had countless games when me or our support were better than the enemy support (if we take that as a measurement in a fight condition), it did not matter. Not only does the healing matter less when there is low damage or bad point presence, by the current item design it gets additionally countered almost completely by 90% - and otherwise they got nerfed on their survivability, damage, range and utility et cetera (the last grover nerf makes very little sense considering that).

    It is as Valkure says, due to the game design, the meta and the flank&dmg low TTK champions with lesser survivability and lower damage have an inbuild disadvantage, when the same skill prerequisition is met. It should not stay that way however, and the game could be at least in part changed for more mobility and sustain, allowing for more deep and tactical approach to the gameplay.
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    Beta Player Marquess TangAce's Avatar
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    the thing is if we go this way, for me it looks like saying we want what overwatch does, supports making everyone immortal as long as they are healing, and that's not what i wanna see in this game
    if you play a support with damage talent and support loadout, it's much easier to defend yourself

    flanks have to get close to be effective, damage are effective at any range, a flank puts himself in danger, a damage does not, point is flank is high risk high reward, if enemy is not careful it's their problem, they should learn to be careful, you can make a flank almost useless, actually flanks shouldn't go all in but rather be poking waiting for opportunity, that's what a flank is
    to me the problem is more the player than the role, and we don't choose our teammates that is

    koga is rather easy to kill so is moji btw, most flanks are easy to kill if one is careful, the number of time i'm the only one waiting and seeing an enemy flank sneaking around, and i see my team fighting without noticing, they'd just have to wait 2sec before going in the fight, 2sec to 3v1 or 5v1 the enemy flank
    numerous time also when i as a flank can't do much cause an enemy damage is waiting with the support while my team isn't making space or any pressure, tanks fighting on the point, and so on

    zhin is still getting nerf (or changed if you want), in a good way

    however it is true some supports could use some buffs, cause most of them are rather talent dependent, i'd prefer to see possible use of damage talents while healing

    a support will never solo carry a game, nor any champ should be able to, if someone solo carry a game then problem is probably MM, every role has it's up and downs, every role needs the other roles to help

    my main concern beside MM is how some champs are clearly better than others

    but any support can defend himself, it all depends how it is played, i almost never use healing talents for that matter, yes people will get angry and most of the time report me, but you can be way more useful than a healing bot
    every support has a damage talent, ah yeah you'll heal bit less, or not cause you'll die less
    only some supports like ying needs a healing talent because it turns their healing into burst heal, which is the most effective due to caut, however damba for exemple isn't totally burst heal, people like damba even if it's not as effective as burst heal so why wouldn't they like a jenos or a ying without LE, cause they simple don't know how to retreat or clean caut, yes people play as they are immortal
    also there will be big difference between a full stack and a full solo, or between bronze and diamond, you can't balance the game for both communication and non communication, or for better and worse players
    there is a solution, make champs less spell relying and more shooting relying, but then the game becomes OW and there's no point playing it


    i'd rather see a better MM, a way to find groups, people using voice chat, and so on, than to see the game balanced over and over, cause one will make things better while the other is simply making us going in a circle
    get rid of burst meta, supports becomes god, then comes hyper mobility again, then high hp pool, then burst again and so on

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    Member Marquess Averey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TangAce View Post
    the thing is if we go this way, for me it looks like saying we want what overwatch does, supports making everyone immortal as long as they are healing, and that's not what i wanna see in this game
    On the contrary, because Overwatch does nothing like that. The base healing in OW lacks behind the damage of an AoE tank, one tank btw. So a main support for the team can not even outheal the damage of an AoE tank, and only partially so during a lackluster ult which has been a massive nerf as compared to an impact a Mercy, for example, had before. The TTK in OW is even worse than in Paladins due to how low it is and how quickly you can be bursted down - we are talking about abilities which make about 400 dmg a sec when we have heals going for like 50-55 hp/s, or a 33 hp/s aoe, it is not even a comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by TangAce View Post
    flanks have to get close to be effective, damage are effective at any range, a flank puts himself in danger, a damage does not, point is flank is high risk high reward, if enemy is not careful it's their problem, they should learn to be careful, you can make a flank almost useless, actually flanks shouldn't go all in but rather be poking waiting for opportunity, that's what a flank is
    We have flanks in the game which outdamage dps, and down tanks no problem, and I am not just talking about Skye which melts tanks in 1.5 second. Other flanks are perfetly able to go toe to toe not only against dps but even against frontlines as well - for me this is simply overtuned. Zhin, Koga, Talus, they all can fight and down a tank. While many damages do not have the same options of intense survivability or mobility.
    This high burst damage along with the mentioned survivability/mobility goes along with a very forgiving range in many cases, like Skye still doing great dmg sticking to the team behind a shield quickly bursting selected targets down, Koga's reach on claws (which should have been reverted rather than nerfing agility), Yomi Zhin posing as a sniper and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by TangAce View Post
    however it is true some supports could use some buffs, cause most of them are rather talent dependent,
    Yet as with the recent Grover nerf, you are pushed more into the role of a full supportive playstyle which lacks defense, and the utility it had got nerfed along the way of balancing the higher healing output. It is not a good way for supports to be balanced, and many supports certainly could use targeted buffs on them improving damage in some cases or giving better survivability, as the frustration playing them incorporates not only the lower survivability and fighting capabilities then other classes, which makes them easy to kill target priorities, but is also not balanced in terms of the reduced impact or role they play on the battlefield.

    Quote Originally Posted by TangAce View Post
    a support will never solo carry a game, nor any champ should be able to, if someone solo carry a game then problem is probably MM, every role has it's up and downs, every role needs the other roles to help

    my main concern beside MM is how some champs are clearly better than others

    but any support can defend himself, it all depends how it is played, i almost never use healing talents for that matter, yes people will get angry and most of the time report me, but you can be way more useful than a healing bot
    every support has a damage talent, ah yeah you'll heal bit less, or not cause you'll die less
    Supports cannot carry a game simply because they are the most team dependant class, followed by frontlines, while flanks and dps are the less team dependant. And, as such, able to carry a game by themselves. Healing does not net you kills, damage does - but even if you go offensive and leave out the most healing talent you do not gain a comparable increase and damage because your basic kit is underperforming/nerfed and does not let the support do the same damage as effectively/easily as a dps or a flank would, which leaves hybrid playstyles lacking and frowned upon by the playerbase, unfortunately not without reason.

    This was already put in math numbers by Ravielsk in a great post before, which I was quoting on many occasions, as it perfectly explains the inbuilt TTK advantage a flank has over a support and how it is an overkill after the controversial survivability nerf on supports. Looking on statistics we have the same picture, offensive Legendaries on most supports having miniscule picks with negative winrates across the competitive board, which would be one hint at the underpowered performance of hybrid roles.

    Quote Originally Posted by TangAce View Post
    also there will be big difference between a full stack and a full solo, or between bronze and diamond, you can't balance the game for both communication and non communication, or for better and worse players
    there is a solution, make champs less spell relying and more shooting relying, but then the game becomes OW and there's no point playing it
    The high base dps output (1444 dps on Andro, 1850 dps on Moji et cetera et cetera) makes it already drift towards OW balance of lowest TTK. The game needs to be balanced for the playerbase to enjoy the champions and for every champion to be viable in use or Legendary - and while one can't achieve ideal balance (as evidenced by games much older than Paladins which are still being balanced to this day), it does not mean the balance of the game should not be altered to be more fair and skill based instead of current burst spam design (Koga claws, Moji design etc) being the better option.


    Quote Originally Posted by TangAce View Post
    i'd rather see a better MM, a way to find groups, people using voice chat, and so on, than to see the game balanced over and over, cause one will make things better while the other is simply making us going in a circle
    get rid of burst meta, supports becomes god, then comes hyper mobility again, then high hp pool, then burst again and so on
    One does not exclude the other in any way. Implementing better communication and teaming up features (like a group finder for modes) does not mean the balancing of the game should come to a stand still and be set in the current burst meta stone for all eternity. For one, changing of balance is natural, and with the burst meta in place many people do not find it engaging or that interesting to play - because the burst itself is based only partial on "skills" but mostly on very high base dps as well. Secondly, it is, as said, not about anyone becoming god but about giving other classes than just flanks which were repeatedly buffed to be the main burst damage carriers in the game some breathing space, which I personally would only welcome in the game.
    Per aspera ad astra.

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    Beta Player Esquire
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    is one truth - if other team have not prefect but good - shalin+zhin+evie - you lose - (or koga who is going for dragon stance heal)
    zhin is almost immortal and his shoots have soooo wide range!!, DOUBLEBLINK evie can kill u and u will not hit her even once and shalin will stun u and u die and u can't kill koga because he is healing himsalfe and all bad buffs he removes instant by "Right click".
    Go make u perfect one of that champs or if u don't kile gameplay of them just abandon game like others who don't like see all that champs in almost 70% oa all games.

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