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Thread: Valk's first and last balance thread on supports

  1. #121
    Member Marquess Averey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AverBeg1 View Post
    Pro players protect all of their players not only supports lol, and it's not because 'they can't win a duel ever' like you suggest, it's because that's how you play as a team. Flanks are definitely not OP 1v1, DD wins 1v1 against flanks if they are the same skill level.
    There is really no reason to shift the burst only on dps, before we already had examples of flank burst on weapon base damage alone, not counting abilities which make said burst even greater with combo. Yes, many dps do even more burst, but some flanks deal same amount of burst or even more than some other dps. While their damage is generally much higher than supports, making them have an advantage over others in terms of self sustain and burst, so supports have both low survivability against and no comparably high damage to defend themselves with. If the supports don't have said damage, then at least their survivability needs to be increased, which you agree on thankfully.

    Quote Originally Posted by AverBeg1 View Post
    Flanks aren't meant to only be finishers either, they are supposed to pressure behind shields and force supports to stop healing as well. Having them only do enough damage to finish low targets would effectively remove them from the game because they would only be useful on a team that's already winning heavily.
    Having a previous mobility meta with average less damage and more survivability and damage on supports, while the flanks had more survivability either, kind of disproves that the flanks would lose their meaning, as harassing, shifting team attention has a great tactical value to it, its not only about getting the target bursted.

    Quote Originally Posted by AverBeg1 View Post
    Well it's not technically a 'shield' but I have said multiple times that Andro could use nerfs to his survivabilty. 2100 HP, reversal, and all those dashes combined with the ability to headshot and combo abilities is just too good still, even after they nerfed Defiant Fist damage and mobility, people just play Godslayer now.
    Yes, his kit is generally unchanged and the nerf did not do much at all, so he is still played with all his advantages unchanged and he definitely needs further changes (either the pistol damage looked at, or the fist damage and range lowered).

    Quote Originally Posted by AverBeg1 View Post
    I'm not going to bother with your other post, you pick specific things to have a go at, when I have already addressed the issues you are arguing, in the same post you are picking apart line by line. Could you instead take my entire post as a whole instead of thinking of me as your enemy while reading line by line looking for something to disagree with, if you have something to say about my main points rather than out of context statements I will then respond. Thanks. Repeating myself is very tiring.
    Your posts are big, and with much most definite statement text I have to go through, and I reply to specific statements that I disagree with, including your respective answers to them, where you also repeat things people answered to already either. If you are not "going to bother to reply", your choice, but as the discussion goes on some posts will be left unanswered, then.
    Last edited by Averey; 01-21-2019 at 08:41 AM.
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  2. #122
    Beta Player Prince GaoShun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AverBeg1 View Post
    Yes, you can 1v1 flanks as a support, most certainly not DD with a TTK of <1sec. But flanks, very possible, especially without caut. I'd like to see the "support pro players" quotes on who they can 1v1, I bet they say "in pro play a support is never in a 1v1" and "in solo queue anything is possible" just claiming that they absolutely can't 1v1 anyone is ludicrous. I play support, I can 1v1 most flanks, I play flanks, I can get 1v1d by good supports that use their abilities properly. Mostly Ying and Damba are the scariest 1v1s. Never said that supports shouldn't be buffed because of this. In fact I have said multiple times, supports could use hard survivability buffs via HP or improved escape mechanisms I just don't agree with buffing their damage, I feel like most supports do pretty good damage already.
    There is a difference between can and possibly can.
    Have I won over flank players in 1v1? Oh yeah, a lot of times there was once where I juggled an Androxus so bad he didn't want to attack when my Ying had full HP, or the other time where an Androxus player sent me a love letter "Go fk yourself" after dominating over his char with my Furia.
    But taking every thing else outside of my personal skill (and luck I guess) support cannot win against flank in 1v1. DPS, sustain, mobility flanks have them all at a better percentage.
    And saying yes, a support can win 1v1 based on personal skill doesn't mean the champion itself can do that. It means the player is good enough to overcome the other side.
    Furthermore, some flank main used this basis to justify the situation of support class as "good enough" this I have a problem with.

    HP buff for some champions are welcomed addition but some support champions do need extra DPS for example Grover & Jenos

    Also, DD and flanks do not have better sulf-sustain than supports. You will find that all DD have less,
    not all DD have less there is on champion with the best self sustain : Dredge. Able to heal, shield and escape with teleport with ease.

    and any flanker with better sustain than support also has less than 2k HP.
    FALSE
    They have that sustain because they can't play backline with their team and be effective (unlike DD and supp), they have to get into fights (unlike DD and support), and because they have less HP than everyone else.
    You are saying flanks have less HP than everyone else, please check first
    2 of these champions cannot be killed when they activate their self sustain, and the other has 2600HP. All supp champions have 2200HP

    Buck has 2300HP base + 300HP (bulk up) and can heal 1500 over 1.5 or 2100 over 1.5sec.
    Talus has 1900HP x 2 (rune reset-> back to full HP) so technically 3700HP max
    Zhin's smolder LC technically gives him another 2000HP

  3. #123
    Beta Player Emperor Valkure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AverBeg1 View Post
    How does the flanker being level 3 matter?
    Please, darling, I don’t have that much time to answer and, trust me on this, it is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT for me, lately, because the login doesn’t work.

    So, if you are here just to repeat idiotic sentences we ALREADY CONFUTED MILLIONS OF TIMES, don’t even try to make me lose the extremely few time I have to stay on forum. You perfectly got what I was saying: a super good support able to counter a very bad flanker (a newbie, and YES, the level means a lot, that’s why they should not be available for purchase) is not a proof that supports aren’t wrongly UP and are in strong need of many unnerve.

    Quote Originally Posted by AverBeg1 View Post
    I don't need to make videos to prove my point since I use real examples in realistic situations
    No, that’s the point, since we all see the “realistic situations” every damn day in our games.

    As said, if the best argument you have in this discussion is “I am right, for I say this”, then don’t waste my time, you are here arguing just for the sake of arguing, not because you have something intelligent to say.

    I suggest you:
    1) To play only healer in the next month
    2) to read all Ravielsk’s posts on the topic. You know, they contain Math and Math is not an opinion.

    Something I’ve noticed so many times in my forum experience: those pontificating about how supports are good and not in need of huge unnerve and precisely those that don’t play support almost never. Funny.

    Quote Originally Posted by YoYtuvieja View Post
    Cauterize this perfect as it is, it is something that affects the healing, not the survival of the support, it is something that affects the healing that you give to your team and since the supports were much better than now, it did not affect you that you do not have self healing, when any damage or flank kills you without problems is not because you lack healing or cauterize is because you have a base kit poor in your survival.
    I can’t give you rep on mobile, but that’s 100% accurate.

  4. #124
    Beta Player Baron
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    I have 200+ hours with Evie and 150+ hours with Ying.

    Let me correct you guys.

    Supports are not weak.
    Supports mobility is not worse than front liners or damage champions.
    Supports survivability is not low. In fact they have the lowest death rate.
    Supports are the healers of this game. They supposed to heal. Thats why they get most rewarded if they heal. They are not healers because they called supports is a bad argument. They could be called as medic too, wouldnt change anything.
    Healing is important. That is why cauterize exist. And always bought every game.
    Flankers choose supports because they are easy targets ? No. There is no such a thing. They choose most avaible easy target possible. Alone or low hp targets. Or which they think is the most important. Like that Kinessa who is shooting at your support. Making your support yell at you.
    Flankers are not the counter uf supports. Snipers are the counter of supports. Also champions like Sha lin and Drago with high damage and long range.
    Stop comparing flankers mobility with supports. It is pointless and stupid. Flankers are supposed to be most mobile class.
    Stop ignoring difference between classes and their roles.
    Stop comparing supports with broken OP champions. Any champion would look weak if you compared him with a OP champion. The solution is to nerf the OP champion not buff all the other champions.
    Self heals doesnt increase your max hp. That is how not they work. It doesnt matter how much self-heal Evie has when Strix can just one shot kill her.
    Stop blaming support champions for your own mistakes.
    If you are running away from your team when attacked that is your fault. You should run towards your team. Lure the attacker to your team. Basic strategy even casual players use.
    If you use support skills (like "Void Grip") for 1vs1 situations that is your fault.
    If you are staying away from your team that is your fault.
    Stop being subjective. Be objective. When you comparing stuff dont ignore the roles, class differences, pros and cons. Just comparing supports cons with other classes pros not gonna help.

  5. #125
    Member Marquess Averey's Avatar
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    Not every support is Ying, play some other ones, but I doubt you will as it is not the first time you ignore posts written in response to your claims which you repeat with the same tendentiousness, about supports being fine and all the others player's feedback being wrong about supports being underpowered or frustrating to play in the burst meta, when they have low survivability or chances against a flank who corners them, you alone are right here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joccasela View Post
    Flankers choose supports because they are easy targets ? No. There is no such a thing. They choose most avaible easy target possible. Alone or low hp targets. Or which they think is the most important. Like that Kinessa who is shooting at your support. Making your support yell at you.
    Flankers are not the counter uf supports. Snipers are the counter of supports. Also champions like Sha lin and Drago with high damage and long range.
    Not ever, there is no such things as focusing or killing a support first because of their support for the frontline/dps or due to how easily they are killed in the first place. Wrong again.
    Yes, flanks killing dps always first because they are the actual counter to supports, flanks have nothing to do with it nor do they kill supports far easier than supports can defend themselves or escape.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joccasela View Post
    They are not healers because they called supports is a bad argument.
    Stop deciding for other people how they have to play the game, especially when you force your wrong view on supports along with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joccasela View Post
    Stop blaming support champions for your own mistakes.
    If you are running away from your team when attacked that is your fault.
    As Valkure said, in the biased claims of some people it is always your fault as support when you die after you leave spawn. Nothing new here either.
    Last edited by Averey; 01-22-2019 at 11:12 AM.
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  6. #126
    Super Moderator Emperor Wallachia's Avatar
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    I made a joke before, but due to the amount of reports I have to take this seriously.

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