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Thread: Valk's first and last balance thread on supports

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    Beta Player Emperor Valkure's Avatar
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    Valk's first and last balance thread on supports

    Oh, sure, you can check. Notwithstanding fiercely debating with flank mains for 2 years, I've never written a full support balance thread.
    I am planning my departure, since I personally can't stand this shit anymore, but at least I want to write down how the hell supports should be balanced to be able to exist in this game.

    I personally don't care about your opinions, I've debated for too much and too long with random users. This is my testament. Take it as you want. You already know everything on the sound of "(ONLY) supports should rely on team play", "they will be broken (these are mostly unnerf, so, NO)", "you want your champ OP for you're bad (no, since my champs are severely UP and I still have good performances)" will be simply ignored.

    Grohk

    Remove Spirit's Domain. I love you, Geste, but this talent sucks.

    Lower the dmg of Shock Pulse and add the slow effect back into it.
    Unnerf Ghost Walk duration back to 2sec.


    Grover

    Create a hybrid talents between Efflorescence and Rampant Blooming (something like an increased 50% radius and passive health, with 80 extra heals when pressing Q)
    Deep Roots cripples for 2sec, or for 1 sec with some extra dmg. No one would waste time on the talent as it is now.

    Unnerf main fire dmg (300 --> 330)
    Fix vines. Seriously, it doesn't work half of the times, and add a visual indicator for its range.


    Furia
    Cherish in her base kit.
    Remove Celerity, add, instead, as talent, the possibility that Wings of Wrath follows WASD direction (as for Cassie and Lian). This would grant her more survivability.
    Solar Blessing: reduce heal per sec and add longer existence-time for the beam. If they want to be healed, they have to stay in the same spot. No pain, no gain.

    Add 15% movement speed in basic kit.
    Revert the following nerfs:
    - Furia will no longer generate ultimate charge from dealing damage while under the effects of her ultimate
    - Reduced damage done at extended ranges
    - Reduced main fire dmg
    - Reduced Light of Dawn shielding. I mean, I waste 5 points on that, it MUST be worth it


    Jenos

    Celestial Touch in main kit.
    Luminary grants 15% bonus dmg also to Jenos, as it was.
    Binary Star needs some unnerf on dmg (it must be tested)

    Unnerf basic dmg (nerfed for "balancing" Binary Star!) 108-->120
    Remove cooldown on Stellar Wind
    Unnerf Stellar Wind 65%-->75%
    Jenos can now use his F to run away while gripping enemies. He can't shoot, but at least he's not playing the sitting duck when wasting his only "defense" ability.

    Fix the bug of invisible ulti or ulti firing at "Step into" instead than "Perish", so that he would not get free kills.

    Mal' damba

    Remove Ripened Gourd and bring back Gourd slow effect.

    Unnerf the following:
    - Spitting Cobra Increased Cooldown from 3s to 4s.
    - Spitting Cobra Damage reduced from 450 to 400

    Since the many nerf on Wekono's Curse, here's the list:
    * May now be cast on enemies to deal {42.5|2.5}% of the healing value as damage over time.
    * Lowered Damage values:
    Level 1 from 595 to 440.
    Level 4 from 700 to 560.
    Level 10 from 910 to 800.
    we now have just 560, but with basic dmg decreased, less HP and so on. Come on! I'm giving up my fu**ng main healing which is HUGE, it must be worth it! So, I'd say:
    Wekono's Curse now deals 650 dmg over 2 sec.

    Fix Ritual Magic when using Wekono's Curse. I mean, it's since damn OB64 that we repeat that.

    Pip

    Mischief removed: it was useless in every case.
    Catalyst in main kit, as it was.
    Bring back Acrobatics as 3rd talent.

    Reload time of 1.5-->1.2 sec or, alternatively, Side Tanks has 0.6-->0.8 sec
    Sprint affects the height of the jump, not the speed.


    Seris

    Soul Collector in her base kit. Give her some ability to defend herself.


    Ying

    Focusing Lens in main kit, as it was.
    Life Like as it is now.
    Life Exchange heals done by RMB lowered to 600.
    Resonance has again the explosion when the ulti expires, as it was.

    Basic speed +10%
    Dim link pre-fire unnerf to 0.1 sec.



    This is a rework to supports aimed to make them able to be as good as they were about 1 year ago, in the golden age of this game, you know, when the player base was 65k only on Steam (ask yourself why they left...). This allows every support player to defend him/herself and to carry. If MM and MMR are solely based on win rate, the hell, if I have an afk or a troll or just a bad player in my team, I MUST BE ABLE TO CARRY. Why you want supports crying in a corner, with huge lose streak just because they've picked a support for the team, and not a fu**ng broken Andro?

    And now, say what you want, I don't care. This is how supports should be for being balanced. You don't win in a fps because your champ is better than another, you win because YOU are better than another player. Every champ should be able to win a 1vs1 if the player is skilled. Now, supports are just free kills.
    Deal with this.
    Last edited by Valkure; 12-21-2018 at 08:07 AM.
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  2. #2
    Member Marquess Averey's Avatar
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    I think those are good proposed changes overall, they would make the support role matter more in an too underpowered aspect (being a viable offensive LC). The talent reworks make sense, especially for Jenos, Furia and Ying. Pip too, though I don't play him much unfortunately.

    Currently, supports are only decent in a heal role when they are accepted into the team composition. Problem with this, it is only one of the possible support roles, which gets countered greatly but the burst damage numbers and cauterize. It is not an enjoyable experience to play support in random ranked que. The team dependance is also which limits the support potential greatly, because you need teammates to stay alive, other classes are more self reliant.

    The burst meta will not change with 2.01, some cases will become slightly or even more better at healing (Seris), but thats about it. Other chars, being flankers and dps, receive buffs and are more strong in sustaining or dealing burst now either. It is my opinion either that more offensive or supportive LCs could have been looked at and incorporated with changes, making supports to be less frustrating and more self reliant to play, instead of being easy bursted down at any positioning as they are now - both in the frontline and in the backline, while teamwork requiring for them to stay alive is lacking even in higher Ranked tiers to say the least.
    Last edited by Averey; 12-21-2018 at 05:57 AM.
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    Beta Player Baron AARPONG's Avatar
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    2.01 is more of a acclimatization update to the way talents and items work so i presume big balance changes to come next update like support moji.

    I agree on most of these points except for pip. Mischief is waaay better than combat medic in any situation.

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    Beta Player Grand Prince M3RC3N4RI0's Avatar
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    The supports need a general rework to be fun to play again. The healing output is too high. A while ago a main healer was healing around 700HP per second at max (with the exception of Damba at 900Hps). Now Ying has a Hps of 1200 with life exchange. Grover's heal got massively boosted. Stuff like healing-through-walls also increases the heal-output. The dps was unlike the hps nerfed. Therefor the supports had to adapt their playstyle to remain effective.

    If a support has a dps/hps of 700 the playstyle can base more on healing or more on doing damage. If the dps is 500 and the hps is 1200 then only a healing centered playstyle is effective. With a big gun and a small heal (like Moji) I will use the gun and vice versa.

    For getting back the old healer/fighter hybrid which was so much fun to play, the heal must be massively reduced so the fighting support has not to compensate for the healing machine in the other team that does 1K heal-per-second on half his team at once.


    Grover should be reworked to his old close combat healer self. More HP and damage, less healing range. But if even Grohk throws his totem from safe distance nowadays there is not much hope.

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    Beta Player Emperor Valkure's Avatar
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    As you can read in many other threads, I am 100% for reducing healing output. As long as burst dmg is reduced. Since, from what I've read, this is not yet happening, I will keep the healing output as it is and buff other aspects of supports kit. I will be more than happy to suggest healing nerf as soon as burst dmg will be deleted.
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    Member Marquess Averey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M3RC3N4RI0 View Post
    The supports need a general rework to be fun to play again. The healing output is too high. A while ago a main healer was healing around 700HP per second at max (with the exception of Damba at 900Hps). Now Ying has a Hps of 1200 with life exchange. Grover's heal got massively boosted. Stuff like healing-through-walls also increases the heal-output. The dps was unlike the hps nerfed. Therefor the supports had to adapt their playstyle to remain effective.
    The healing increase was the answer to the damage increase. The high damage numbers and high healing numbers both are too high, if you nerf only the healing you will make the healing support role, which is underpowered in many aspects, holding even less value. The damage burst currently is simply too high, even tanks can be bursted down, supports are dead even faster on a successfull flank attack.

    You can offset supports with damage from dps with great damage output, a support has to heal the damage of a 5 person's team which was drastically raised as well for flankers, making them put out more damage in some cases than dps. Cauterize counters the healing for 90% additionally, which is huge and works as counter to burst healing. To lessen this state, the burst needs to be decreased, and the healing both, then add mobility back up to flankers and increase the support damage.

    As in the state of the burst meta Valkure's proposition regarding talents is reasonable, considering it does not overnerf the support role while looking to add to the the nerfed and underperforming aspects of the supports (unviable offensive LCs in many cases).
    Last edited by Averey; 12-21-2018 at 10:14 AM.
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    Beta Player Archduke GeSteYiam's Avatar
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    I'll write about what i disagry with
    Give back the lost HP if not all some of it like 100-400 hp to every support
    Grohk:
    No thanks, i don't need a melstrom grohk slowing me behind walls every 1 second, i would not mind some other utility added to the pulse or if the slow was like 20% at max

    Furia:
    I consider the nerfs you listed well deserved nerfs exept the main fire damage reduction? when did that happen btw i don't remember it. Especialy her low damage drop off at range was insanely powerfull.
    Light of Dawn was overnerfed but it was too strong. Half unerf should do it although it will be useless now that everyone will run both caut and wreker

    Jenos:
    I think it would be more beneficial to him to have less damage dropoff instead of more damage (since he is sitting in the back) and a bigger magazine(since he damage before reload is the lowerst in the game i believe) also i would buff his damage to 110 cause 108 bothers me, also there has to be something done about his 3rd person shooting exploit if they remove the cooldown off stelar wind

    MalDamba:
    Weckonos curse power comes not from it's damage but from the ease to land it at any range. Lian has an ability that deals 800 damage at range on a 15sec cooldown, you cannot have damba do 650 every 3 seconds
    I had to check the wiki to understand what you ment about the spiting cobra cooldown, state what you are talking about
    Also i wan't the damage buff to his snake toss as it was in his main kit and the super cobra talend reworked.
    (to those who dosn't know damba's snake toss used to do more damage the later you reload dealing max damage at 0 ammo reload)

    Pip:
    Catalyst as is is too powerfull to be in his main kit. Both his slow and shots are extremely easy to land

    Seris:
    The reason i prefer what evil mojo gave to her base kit is that it will reduce toxicity, If sould collector was in her main kit while better seris players will still get harassed to pick void abides.

    Ying:
    I like the new ulitmate way more than having healing stations everyone will ignore.
    While the new DL postfire extremely long i consider the old one extremely fast, i would frefer a hald unnerf instead of a full unnerf like 0,3 which is the time to shoot once before you blink and even the fastest not full auto weapons won;t shoot you a second time in between blinks

    Grover:
    Buff his main kit max damage from 750 to 900
    Root 2 secs is a bit to long imo, 1,5 is better
    Last edited by GeSteYiam; 12-22-2018 at 05:55 AM.

  8. #8
    Member Marquess Averey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeSteYiam View Post
    Furia:
    I consider the nerfs you listed well deserved nerfs exept the main fire damage reduction? when did that happen btw i don't remember it. Especialy her low damage drop off at range was insanely powerfull.
    Light of Dawn was overnerfed but it was too strong. Half unerf should do it although it will be useless now that everyone will run both caut and wreker
    I think the main weapon damage can very well be unnerfed slightly, a Furia already has a much lower TTK than any flank on base, and even under wrath you can't compete with flanks or dps bursting you down. Her shots are too slow either.

    Furia actually has the highest deathrate among all supports.

    LoD is just overnerfed, as you say, and needs an unnerf to it, 1 point for 50 shield is ridiculous. As Valkure says, Cherish in the base kit at least would help too, it is just not good at all as healing Talent.

    Also some interesting thoughts about the upcoming patch:
    Quote Originally Posted by Doshneil View Post
    I believe the biggest downside to the patch is that it will decrease the time to live of healers and tanks, while boosting damage/flanks damage output and self survivability higher. This is all due to the item shop changes. Technically it will boost healing output for most when combining chronos and morale boost, but in practicality it will be harder to apply those heals when you will be dead in a blink. Im sure it will make the pros and hi ranked matches harder and longer, but for gold silver and bronze it will not work out like that.

    Just imagine a flank with haven, resilience, nimble, and life rip 1 vs 1 any healer. This loadout will devastate most any healer with just weapon damage, let alone abilities and card loadouts.
    Last edited by Averey; 12-23-2018 at 05:36 AM.
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    Beta Player Marquess KicsitCsicska's Avatar
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    There are good ideas, but much more buffs than nerfs. We need heal nerf before buff everything on them.
    I don't know some old stuffs, like Acrobatic or Ritual Magic. You should write them here.
    Anyway Mischief helps Pip to use his F skill (and every other skills) more often, it could be also great with a buff.
    The old CC on Ghrok was terrible. Slow us down all the time, we wasn't able to positioning, it was realy anying to play against.
    The Wekono's Curse's damage amount is the same as the healing's in the same duration. This is why it is elegant now. It needs rather a duartion buff from 2s to 2.5 with the same dmg/time -> 700 damage could be dealt.

    Too much talent into the base kit could make them OP. Base speed don't needed, because we can already buy Nimble without ban Chronos or Morale Boost! Jenos with Nimble2 is awesome!!


    Here are my ideas how to make them funnier to play and solve the boring need healer - need Cauterize meta:

    -Reduce the effect of Cauterize from 30%/lvl to 25%/lvl.

    Furia:
    -Renerf the cd of Kindle Soul from 4s to 5s.
    -Nerf Solar Blessing's elementary heal from 300 to 200.
    -Remove her high range damage nerf.

    Ghrok:
    -Increase his basic HP by 100.
    -Rebuff the HP of the totem from 1000 to 1500. (because of the bulldozer buff)
    -Increase Ghost Walk's duration from 1s to 1.5s.
    -Reduce the healing of Healing Totem from 420/s to 350/s.
    -Reduce the healing of Spirit's Domain from 900/s to 750/s (without the 30% bonus possibly)

    Grover:
    -Buff his min damage, max damage by 100.
    -Buff his basic HP by 100.
    -Nerf the healing of Blossom from 900 to 600.

    Jenos:
    -Remove the instant heal.
    -reduce his heals from 220/s to 200/s.
    -Multiply the weapon damage by 10/9.
    -Void Grip deals its damage instant.

    Mal Damba:
    -Rebuff his damage from 400 to 450.
    -Increase his HP by 50. (old times he had 2650)
    -Reduce the cd of Slither from 8s to 7s.
    -Reduce the bonus of Eerie Presence from 0.5s/lvl to 0.4s/lvl.
    -Reduce the heal bonus of Spirit's Chosen from 300 to 200.
    -Reduce the duration of Mending Spirits from 5s to 4s.
    -Reduce Gourd's healing from 300/s to 240/s.

    Pip:
    -Remove the boring Combat Medic.
    -Bring back Mischielf with an other bonus too: also reduce the cd of Healing Poting by 1s.
    -Reduce the healing from 1200 to 1000.
    -Buff the damage of Potion Launcher from 600 to 650.

    Seris:
    -Increase her basic damage from 210 to 240.
    -Increase the damage of Rend Soul from 100 to 150.
    -Reduce her healing from 1000/s to 750/s.

    Ying:
    -Halve the prefire time of Shatter and Dimension Link
    -Reduce her HP from 2200 to 2100.
    -Renerf the healing of Illusions from 420/s to 350/s.
    Reduce the healing of Life Exchange from 800 to 600.
    -Increase the damage bonus of Focusing Lens from 150 to 180. (It is equal to 2 ticks' damage)

    Khan:
    -Reduce her healing of Battle shout from 1000 to 800.
    Last edited by KicsitCsicska; 12-24-2018 at 04:29 AM.
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    Beta Player Duke Eloxist's Avatar
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    I'm just gonna say this since I don't really have an opinion on the other changes.

    Spirits domain is pretty good now after the buffs, 900 HPS and 1170 with Rejuv is pretty good.

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