Page 8 of 8 FirstFirst ... 6 7 8
Results 71 to 74 of 74

Thread: Lets try and clear up a few things about roles

  1. #71
    Beta Player Baron Dovahkat963's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    207
    Level
    27
    Points: 2,100, Level: 27
    Level completed: 67%, Points required for next Level: 50
    Achievements:
    Closed Beta Tester Forum Tier 2 1000 Experience Points 1 year registered Tagger First Class
    Ok to be honest I'm not 100% sure where this discussion has gone. Most of it was discussing what flanks and supports should and shouldn't be, points about how skill is the primary factor in any matchup, and now its looking like an Overwatch argument? Did we forget that we're talking about Paladins here? Whatever, I'm just going to give my opinion of what flanks and supports are and what they do. Don't agree with me? Thats fine, you don't have too. Free speech and all that.

    To me, flanks are, first and foremost, distractions. You move around the side, get the attention of the backline by poking them, then you use your mobility/survivability to keep their attention while not dying in the process. Congratulations, you have split the enemy team in half. The pressure has been taken off your team so they can take down the frontline and whoever is sticking with them. Oh, you managed to pick off one of the backline during your distraction? Good for you. You did a good. Optional objective completed. Obviously you need to be careful and manage cooldowns, leave yourself a way to gtfo if things go south. If you blow all your mobility and have nowhere to hide, you die. You got yourself into that situation, now pay the price. Find someone out of position while moving to distract? Then punish them for it. You have the tools to do it. If they turn out to be more than you can handle, then again, leave yourself a way to get out of there.

    But what if distracting isn't possible? What if the enemy is extra perceptive and is blasting your head off the moment you pop out? Then you be a pseudo-damage dealer. Take cover, contribute to the damage, protect your teams backline. See someone low health trying to run? Thats when you go back to being a flanker and finish them off before they get a chance to heal.

    There are exceptions to everything of course, no two flankers are the same. Some flankers ARE meant to be assassins who quickly pick off one person then back off before they get ripped apart. Not fun to be on the receiving end but its a role some flanks have nonetheless.


    As for supports, yeesh this one is a minefield. But I will try to offer the best explanation I can. Supports make the rest of their team better. It's what they do. You make the frontlines die less, make enemies easier targets for your damage dealers and flanks, and you contribute to the damage being dealt to make enemies die faster. Your job is whatever is needed of you at the time. Remember back up there the situation where the flanker has run out of options and is going to die? Well assuming you can reach them, you might be the one who saves their butt. Anyone could do that, damage dealers by killing the enemies first or frontlines body-blocking for them, but supports have the best chance of doing it by tossing them some heals and maybe some CC in the process. Not always possible of course, depends on how far they pushed themselves into enemy territory.

    As for a supports 1v1 capability, it exists, it should exist, and removing it would make supports useless. Ideally you shouldn't HAVE to 1v1 someone, but we don't live in an ideal world. Sometimes your team gets tunnel vision. Sometimes you got yourself into that situation. It happens. But it shouldn't be an automatic death sentence when it does. I personally have won 1v1 encounters against flanks and even frontlines as a support. Not often, but it isn't a rare occurrence either. And its always because I outmaneuvered my foe and landed more of my shots then they did as a result. Not because I was rock and they were scissors. Because I outplayed them despite the odds being in their favor statistically speaking. Statistics are a trend. Not a verdict. Just because someone is statistically more likely to win an encounter doesn't mean it will happen every time. Even if the odds were 99 to 1, there is always a chance that the 1% can happen repeatedly. Unlikely but possible. That can pretty much sum up a 1v1 for a support. Victory is statistically unlikely but always possible. As it should be.


    And there is my 2 cents on the matter. If you read the whole thing, then thank you for your patience. Feel free to point out any flaws in my logic that you may see. I won't mind. If you just skimmed what I wrote looking for things to pull out of context and argue about then I will gladly ignore whatever you write as well.
    I don't normally rage about how I died, but when I do...

    Its when freaking Andro catches my ankle as I escape around a corner from like 100 feet away!!!

    My Champion Concepts

  2. #72
    Beta Player Emperor Valkure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    12,425
    Level
    100
    Points: 77,767, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Achievements:
    Closed Beta Tester Overdrive Tagger First Class 50000 Experience Points Forum Tier 4 1 year registered Forum Tier 3
    Quote Originally Posted by promatchgriefer View Post
    Seems like this thread has devolved into more so flanks need to be nerfed than anything else. At this point it's not even so much about balance as a whole (which is what it was intended for)
    So now the thread is back again to be a balance one. Interesting. You keep changing idea...

    Quote Originally Posted by promatchgriefer View Post
    The idea that supports should be able to hold their own is something I will never agree with because I don't believe that it's their role to battle whomever they come in contact with and be able to win.
    Now open your youtube page. Go to HiRez page on youtube. Check the streams or about 1 year and half ago. Listen to them SPECIFICALLY DECLARING THAT, and decide if you can deal with it or leave the game.
    I see no other option. I mean "That's their design philosophy and that's the philosophy people should adapt to." ;-)

    Quote Originally Posted by promatchgriefer View Post
    1. The role of the supports have already been outlined by Hirez developers. It's not that one class is more overpowered it's just that every class has a role.
    Yes, the problem is that Devs said what WE are saying, totally opposite to what YOU are saying.

    I have no time to answer to the others, but I'd like promatch to focus on this:

    DEVS THEMSELVES PROCLAIMED THAT SUPPORTS ARE NOT THERE TO BE HEALING SLAVES, BUT TO FIGHT, BE ABLE TO WIN 1VS1 AND SO ON.
    I've finally found it!

    New to the forum? Have a look >>>here<<<! Some useful answers.

    #AggressiveSupports
    I'm tired of repeating the same things, watch this: link

    "It's just Casual/ Go Ranked if you want a decent team/You are low tier, so you're bad." Rage

  3. #73
    Member Knight Averey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    67
    Level
    3
    Points: 193, Level: 3
    Level completed: 86%, Points required for next Level: 7
    Achievements:
    7 days registered 100 Experience Points
    Quote Originally Posted by EssenceStudio View Post
    First Off I wouldn't say that Kindle soul is a very team-based ability. Even Solar Blessing isn’t that teambased you can put that beam anywhere and its going to get value. Also Don’t act like she does bad damage a “good” furia is doing 330 every 0.35 seconds. That is not including her movement ability which does another 600 damage/ to put into perspective assuming the player didn’t take Haven, Furia can do a 1700 Burst in 1.2 seconds. That's almost killing Evie. her fall off on her gun isn’t that bad either.
    SB is completely teambased, if your team scatters and does not use it the ability and all its heal is rendered useless. "Putting the beam anywhere and get value" could not be more wrong. KS is her RM heal ability as other support have.
    As en example Andro can do a 2200 burst in 1.5 seconds, and kill her while she has even less chances against him when she heals and has her PS on CD.

    She does less damage than flankers or dps, how is that unclear? And I said nowhere that I want her to do the same damage as flankers, nor have others said it, but what needs to be done is allow supports to be a bit more survivable against the burst, simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by EssenceStudio View Post
    I mean Caut will always be in the game. Like I said previously even if you nerf flanks it's not like caut will change.
    And Cauterize is the counter to heals making your heals 90% less in the mid game on an attacked target, rendering even burst healing unable to cope with the damage output on everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by EssenceStudio View Post
    (Think of Tyra, Vik, Sha) they provide defensive(if they are good) so you can heal a bit more freely.
    Think of very few people bothering about anything other than shooting something in front of them, and that even in mid to high tiers, while you as support are left to fend for yourself while having to position, heal, damage and support the team all at the same time, instead of just positioning and damage. This is a team game, but the fact that it is a teamgame should be applied to every class, not just the support.

    Quote Originally Posted by EssenceStudio View Post
    You make it sound like there will be multiple flanker attempts, so I said that if there is a multi-flank attempt there is very little you can do.
    Not so much you can do about a single flank attempt on you either, you might want to read this post which explains it very well.

    Quote Originally Posted by EssenceStudio View Post
    GENJI IS ONE OF IF NOT THE MOST POPULAR CHARACTERs IN THE GAME. Look at Sombra she is considered to even be a brig counter, but yet she is less picked then Tracer, who is hard-countered by brig. Popularity Runs a Big AAA game like OW.
    So a game needs to be balanced on popularity? OMG. Because it is in the end - popular and most picked dps are brokenly OP (Tracer still is, without Brigitte able to counter her now anywhere near consistently, Genji ult having the least possible counters if you even can call them that), while supports are being nerfed into a state which does not give them even a chance to pose a threat to dps, so the dps can just misposition themself freely and not getting punished for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by EssenceStudio View Post
    Game Changing Ult, Nice…. Did you know That most Genji Ult used at High play often are helped, with another ultimate, and or Genji being Nano-Boosted. “PRACTICALLY HAS VERY FEW COUNTERS”, are you kidding me. Any type of CC will basically stop Blade in its tracks. You want to know what actual consistent Game-changing ults are Grav, Valk, Shatter These all consistently change games.
    Did you know that the NanoDB practically has no counters in the game, with very few exceptions, as Genji even kills through Transcendence with Nano and there are no consistent ways to counter it because he simply can avoid all the CC and even CC ults? Shatter consistent counter to DB, when Genji needs to press doublespace like he usually does anyway to avoid it completely. Funny joke.

    Quote Originally Posted by EssenceStudio View Post
    Wow another false statement Genji is NOT GOING THROUGH 100 armour you are delusional if you think that
    Genji needs three swings of his Blade to delete a Brigitte and anyone in the vicinity with her ult on, just as info for you. Wiping 3+ teams and making ults wasted, no biggie. But I forgot, he needs to be OP because he is a flashy ninja dps. o.O

    Quote Originally Posted by EssenceStudio View Post
    Lucio is used for a Speed Boost to reposition the team, Brig is a Brawler. They are completely different. I never said she was uncounterable, but I did say that she did control the game in a way that very few support have done in the past.
    Lucio is used as a second support who heals and boosts, how have you been playing him. o.O He can outheal Moiras or Mercies, not that the second is any wonder after she has been nerfed into a joke just like Brigitte getting the Mercy treatment is now. To reduce his role to a speed boost is just one-dimensional on a character with many responsibilities, including controlling the enemy in close on his own due to his own utility.

    Quote Originally Posted by EssenceStudio View Post
    Also When I said Aggressive I also meant speed Wise. Mercy has much more mobility then Ana
    That is far from being the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by EssenceStudio View Post
    She still can Stun through Shields and Still has the CC that made her strong in the first place.
    Plus even Now she is still a pretty hard counter to most OW flanks.
    Did you even read the patch notes or played her yourself on the PTR? Seems like neither the first, nor the the second is true when I read things like this "she can still stun through shields". o.O

    Quote Originally Posted by EssenceStudio View Post
    Not answering; This too tied and not worth my time.
    That's rich, coming from someone who calls others delusional as if it gives more validity in a discussion. /shrug

  4. #74
    Member Knight
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    71
    Level
    9
    Points: 488, Level: 9
    Level completed: 76%, Points required for next Level: 12
    Achievements:
    31 days registered 250 Experience Points Closed Beta Tester
    Quote Originally Posted by Dovahkat963 View Post
    Ok to be honest I'm not 100% sure where this discussion has gone. Most of it was discussing what flanks and supports should and shouldn't be, points about how skill is the primary factor in any matchup, and now its looking like an Overwatch argument? Did we forget that we're talking about Paladins here? Whatever, I'm just going to give my opinion of what flanks and supports are and what they do. Don't agree with me? Thats fine, you don't have too. Free speech and all that.

    To me, flanks are, first and foremost, distractions. You move around the side, get the attention of the backline by poking them, then you use your mobility/survivability to keep their attention while not dying in the process. Congratulations, you have split the enemy team in half. The pressure has been taken off your team so they can take down the frontline and whoever is sticking with them. Oh, you managed to pick off one of the backline during your distraction? Good for you. You did a good. Optional objective completed. Obviously you need to be careful and manage cooldowns, leave yourself a way to gtfo if things go south. If you blow all your mobility and have nowhere to hide, you die. You got yourself into that situation, now pay the price. Find someone out of position while moving to distract? Then punish them for it. You have the tools to do it. If they turn out to be more than you can handle, then again, leave yourself a way to get out of there.

    But what if distracting isn't possible? What if the enemy is extra perceptive and is blasting your head off the moment you pop out? Then you be a pseudo-damage dealer. Take cover, contribute to the damage, protect your teams backline. See someone low health trying to run? Thats when you go back to being a flanker and finish them off before they get a chance to heal.

    There are exceptions to everything of course, no two flankers are the same. Some flankers ARE meant to be assassins who quickly pick off one person then back off before they get ripped apart. Not fun to be on the receiving end but its a role some flanks have nonetheless.


    As for supports, yeesh this one is a minefield. But I will try to offer the best explanation I can. Supports make the rest of their team better. It's what they do. You make the frontlines die less, make enemies easier targets for your damage dealers and flanks, and you contribute to the damage being dealt to make enemies die faster. Your job is whatever is needed of you at the time. Remember back up there the situation where the flanker has run out of options and is going to die? Well assuming you can reach them, you might be the one who saves their butt. Anyone could do that, damage dealers by killing the enemies first or frontlines body-blocking for them, but supports have the best chance of doing it by tossing them some heals and maybe some CC in the process. Not always possible of course, depends on how far they pushed themselves into enemy territory.

    As for a supports 1v1 capability, it exists, it should exist, and removing it would make supports useless. Ideally you shouldn't HAVE to 1v1 someone, but we don't live in an ideal world. Sometimes your team gets tunnel vision. Sometimes you got yourself into that situation. It happens. But it shouldn't be an automatic death sentence when it does. I personally have won 1v1 encounters against flanks and even frontlines as a support. Not often, but it isn't a rare occurrence either. And its always because I outmaneuvered my foe and landed more of my shots then they did as a result. Not because I was rock and they were scissors. Because I outplayed them despite the odds being in their favor statistically speaking. Statistics are a trend. Not a verdict. Just because someone is statistically more likely to win an encounter doesn't mean it will happen every time. Even if the odds were 99 to 1, there is always a chance that the 1% can happen repeatedly. Unlikely but possible. That can pretty much sum up a 1v1 for a support. Victory is statistically unlikely but always possible. As it should be.


    And there is my 2 cents on the matter. If you read the whole thing, then thank you for your patience. Feel free to point out any flaws in my logic that you may see. I won't mind. If you just skimmed what I wrote looking for things to pull out of context and argue about then I will gladly ignore whatever you write as well.
    Last part is 100% accurate. That's all they do and expect the same from everyone. I've just started ignoring it.
    The thread was suppose to be about balance in general but devolved into the support vs flank argument. No one has said anything about removing a supports 1v1 strength. Like you said though it does exist and I even pointed out that you shouldn't have to 1v1 multiple times. This isn't like Overwatch where the meta is rock vs scissors. I even mentioned that a flanks role is significantly diminished by team awareness. I think the majority of people making complaints about the matter aren't playing the correct way. It's more than likely very low tiered players anyway which hurts credibility.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •