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Thread: Lets try and clear up a few things about roles

  1. #61
    Beta Player Archduke GeSteYiam's Avatar
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    Still i am over lvl 400 and i didn't know about the half comeback mechanic which i learned after watching the hrx. I am still not sure when the half comeback mechanic activates.

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    Seems like this thread has devolved into more so flanks need to be nerfed than anything else. At this point it's not even so much about balance as a whole (which is what it was intended for) or even specifically targeting a few champions. The idea that supports should be able to hold their own is something I will never agree with because I don't believe that it's their role to battle whomever they come in contact with and be able to win.

    According to Hirez developers, support champions focus on three main things.
    "Strategic play, Team cooperation, Situational awareness"
    Three things that most players (especially in lower elo) don't maintain properly. This is objectively true.
    So the idea that support champions should be geared more towards an "I can do it myself" kinda of utility is nonsensical.
    That's their design philosophy and that's the philosophy people should adapt to.

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    Member Knight Averey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by promatchgriefer View Post
    The idea that supports should be able to hold their own is something I will never agree with because I don't believe that it's their role to battle whomever they come in contact with and be able to win.
    And again, no one besides yourself said it for it to be the goal of people, who just want supports to be less guaranteed kills for flankers on which many, at this point, are overpowered.

    Quote Originally Posted by promatchgriefer View Post
    Three things that most players (especially in lower elo) don't maintain properly. This is objectively true.
    So the idea that support champions should be geared more towards an "I can do it myself" kinda of utility is nonsensical.
    That's their design philosophy and that's the philosophy people should adapt to.
    Supports should be able to contribute a comparable amount of impact to the game as other classes, with utility, damage, healing et cetera on supports if we want the game to be balanced properly without having one overpowered class overshadowing others.

    Right now your team result depends on who has the better flankers or dps, and the support role is diminished. That is something which people agree on needs to change, and flankers requiring skill to secure their kill "in a teamplay" environment, and teamplay is something which should apply to them as well, not just to certain other classes.
    Last edited by Averey; 12-06-2018 at 02:06 PM.

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    Forum Moderator Grand Prince Peinzius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeSteYiam View Post
    Still i am over lvl 400 and i didn't know about the half comeback mechanic which i learned after watching the hrx. I am still not sure when the half comeback mechanic activates.
    Comeback mechanic happens in Siege when one team is behind the other.

    If a team is 1 point behind the other, they gain 3 1/2 % per tick on the capture point while the other team gets the normal 3% (you can also think of it as getting 3% for a tick, 4% for the next, 3% for the next, 4% etc.)

    If a team is 2 points behind the other, they gain 4% per tick on the capture point. The other team still only gets 3%.


    It's designed to give the losing team a chance to win. It has it's positives and negatives, it can be controversial.
    Last edited by Peinzius; 12-06-2018 at 02:03 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Averey View Post
    And again, no one besides yourself said it for it to be the goal of people, who just want supports to be less guaranteed kills for flankers on which many, at this point, are overpowered.


    Supports should be able to contribute a comparable amount of impact to the game as other classes, with utility, damage, healing et cetera on supports if we want the game to be balanced properly without having one overpowered class overshadowing others.

    Right now your team result depends on who has the better flankers or dps, and the support role is diminished. That is something which people agree on needs to change, and flankers requiring skill to secure their kill "in a teamplay" environment, and teamplay is something which should apply to them as well, not just to certain other classes.
    1. The role of the supports have already been outlined by Hirez developers. It's not that one class is more overpowered it's just that every class has a role.
    2. Team results don't depend on better flankers or dps. That's just nonsense. Frontline is higher priority than flanks and has been for a very long time.
    3. Flanks do require skill to secure kills "in a teamplay environment." Obviously if you don't have the awareness to see a flank coming you're going to get destroyed. A flanks job isn't easy especially if you have that awareness mentioned by the developers. It's nearly impossible to flank a team that doesn't allow themselves to get flanked.

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    Beta Player Archduke GeSteYiam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peinzius View Post
    --
    I c, hmm, thing is i learned about half comaback only recently. what i was thinking isn;t possible, anyway ignore this post and thanks for going into the effort to explain it to me.

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    Member Knight Averey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by promatchgriefer View Post
    1. The role of the supports have already been outlined by Hirez developers. It's not that one class is more overpowered it's just that every class has a role.
    And flankers are less dependant on the team while excelling even at attacking the frontline, and outputting more damage than dps while having far more mobility options. Just because you don't see it and want the supports not able to defend themselves against flankers does not mean the issue is not there.

    Quote Originally Posted by promatchgriefer View Post
    2. Team results don't depend on better flankers or dps. That's just nonsense. Frontline is higher priority than flanks and has been for a very long time.
    Are you talking about those 3+ flanks compositions I played in where we wrecked everything (I play as flankers too, you know), or the fact that you as support can try and make as much effort as you want, while not being able to contribute half the impact on the game a flanker can have, because with bad flankers you lose, bad supports get carried while good supports lose against a team with worse supporting, and it happens constantly.

    Quote Originally Posted by promatchgriefer View Post
    Obviously if you don't have the awareness to see a flank coming you're going to get destroyed.
    And supports already need to have their attention at:
    1) Situational awareness. 2) Healing prioritization. 3) Proper positioning to not be bursted down by flanks or dps at range or in close. 4) Less time to react and try to escape (with many supports having much worse mobility options than flankers). 5) Life dependancy on cooldown management just as flankers, but the flankers don't use it to heal other teammates and have them available for themselves all the time.
    All this without the same impact on the game as flankers or dps, who are more important for the team win, and as many already said, it directly impacts the MMR system for the support as well, making him less impact on the game results depending too heavily on the teamplay, which is simply not existant or very low present at many ranked tiers. So you just repeating the same points from before again, which already have been answered as well regarding teamplay, and also going far more into detail than I am.

    This, and this, and this, you did not answer those points.
    Last edited by Averey; 12-06-2018 at 02:53 PM.

  8. #68
    Beta Player Baronet
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    I will mention I'm NOT saying flank shouldn't be tuned up a bit, BUT I do not think some of the Supports we have now should get buffed. I do believe the we should get buffs for Grover and some turning for Furia, but everybody else is in grey area until the big (2.01?) patch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valkure View Post
    Except that Damba's stun is effective only with the correct LC, the ulti is an ulti, so you use it about 6 times in a game, Furia's burst has been nerfed and the CC is not there, for you're using the beam to heal your tank (RMB has been nerfed, you know) , Pip's ulti is still about 6 times. And... CAUTERIZE & RESILIENCE.
    The supports DON'T HAVE outplay potential. That's our problem. ;-)
    Valk, Damba Stun is very effect unless Damaba is fighting and heavier set Flank a good damba stun no matter the legendary will force a flank to retreat or at least buy you time for a teammate to notice. While damaba yes won't kill the andro or really any flank(Unless using Wekono's Wrath) if they retreat he will definitely make them(Flanks) less effective.

    A effective Furia Will still have a really good atk spd(this was never nerfed) and along side a "auto aim Movement ability" and possibly having a stun(if off CD)( protecting your own life is more important than healing the tank if you in a duel). Furia has a lot of potential to deal a lot of dmg in a very short amount of time if skilled.

    Your right it was unfair to mention ults, But Pip’s explosive flask along side Weightless is usually enough, Unless they are a heavier set flank or they are in the air(Andro) which are hard-shots it hit.

    Lastly while you right Resilience does counter a lot of healer CC you can’t honestly tell me that resilience is a Top pick for the flank class. They mostly go haven/Blast shield to counter the damage class more often. Even then you can always pick up….. HAVEN & CHRONOS to better fight them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Averey View Post
    In the burst meta, that potential is diminished too greatly, with flankers able to bust up even tanks.

    I will Argue that Andro is the only one that breaks the 7/10 rule the other Flanks in the game can still get outplayed by supports(maybe not Buck he is far too tanky). Also not all Flank have crazy burst. Flanks Like Maeve and Talus are especially vulnerable to Support CC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Averey View Post
    Using up to defend from just one flanker attempt sounds great, yes. Also you forget that on some supports the CC is combined with heals, making them unable to use it for actual CC to defend themselves with.
    Yeah that MIGHT happen, but even then a GOOD furia is running a really high atk spd and “Auto aim” Movement ability. She is actually is one of the better support when in comes to 1v1 duels(compared to champs like Grover and Seris). Also I’m mean if you get flanked by two Flanks in a short amount of time I will argue that is a positioning problem more so than anything else. Even if they did nerf all flanks you can’t expect a support to be able to fight two flanks at once that is unrealistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Averey View Post
    So no, I would have to disagree on this example, as the problem was not this at all, but the initial overtuned release and the unwillingness of dps mains to switch from their mains to other dps who in fact were good against her after all the nerfs she got before and other dps being made or reworked which allowed them to counter her even better.
    Oof, I’m sorry bud, but you got a lot of this info wrong. Firstly Genji was pushed out of the meta while not as much as Tracer there was certainly no reason to play him and shield bash from brig went through his deflect and cancelled his Ult. The only Flank still viable and just barly was Pharah, because she would stay out of brigs range.

    Second, While I’m not one of those crazy nerf Brig guys, SHE IS NOT A TROLL PICK. While not has powerful as before her tool are still Strong and is still a Top Support. Also Dive did NOT make it hell for Supports actually aggressive supports like Lucio,Mercy, Moira and Zen were very good.

    Third, what did you really mean by that paragraph? My statement was about what happens when you give strong defensive capabilities to supports, I said that Brig is a good example and then you said it was the her being Overturned, Which while true wasn’t really the case. It is her Tanky nature and strong stuns that made her so good(She never really lost this part of her). And Then you Blamed the Players which is utter BS, becuase according to Support mains it's always the unwillingness of dps mains to switch. I mean I could literally say the same thing about Support Mains and quote……

    “The unwillingness of support mains to switch from their mains to other Supports who in fact were better at fighting against Flanks”


    Last edited by EssenceStudio; 12-06-2018 at 09:30 PM.
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    Member Knight Averey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EssenceStudio View Post
    A effective Furia Will still have a really good atk spd(this was never nerfed) and along side a "auto aim Movement ability" and possibly having a stun(if off CD)( protecting your own life is more important than healing the tank if you in a duel). Furia has a lot of potential to deal a lot of dmg in a very short amount of time if skilled.
    If off CD, and it is a big if, because you as support has to heal, prioritize healing, be aware of surroundings and teammates and contribute utility and damage at the same time, which requires a different skill set than a flanker doing dps and having to sustain only himself. Her damage output is still less than flankers or dps overall, while being better than some other supports, which she makes up with her healing spezialization requiring teamplay and skill in positioning and zoning to be any effective. Her survivability is also worse than some other healers, with her "autoaim"-ability (does Lex have not the same thing?) not teleporting or making her invisible.

    Quote Originally Posted by EssenceStudio View Post
    Lastly while you right Resilience does counter a lot of healer CC you can’t honestly tell me that resilience is a Top pick for the flank class.
    Oh, don't forget Caut, which is one of the top flankers picks you always see as first or second pick.

    Quote Originally Posted by EssenceStudio View Post
    Also I’m mean if you get flanked by two Flanks in a short amount of time I will argue that is a positioning problem more so than anything else. Even if they did nerf all flanks you can’t expect a support to be able to fight two flanks at once that is unrealistic.
    Positioning problem staying in the backline, or trying to heal the frontline from the back? Cool story. Also no one mentioned here supports being able to defend themselves against two flankers at once, please read our posts, it is about giving supports the ability to survive a bit better in a heavily burst meta with flankers outdamaging and having far more mobility than supports, while supports themselves are forced to rely heavily on teammates to sustain against one flanker, if played with a heal build anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by EssenceStudio View Post
    Oof, I’m sorry bud, but you got a lot of this info wrong. Firstly Genji was pushed out of the meta while not as much as Tracer there was certainly no reason to play him and shield bash from brig went through his deflect and cancelled his Ult. The only Flank still viable and just barly was Pharah, because she would stay out of brigs range.
    You don't seem to have looked at the statistics of all the past seasons, where he remained the top dps pick with over a 5% pickrate compared to other dps who were made troll picks by the flankers burst meta too, being Torb and Sym with like, 0.5% pickrate? Yes, a very "healthy" balance.
    Reason why he was and is still so popular? Because he is the most versatile dps with a gamechanging ult which practically has very few counters, that is why he is picked the most for such a long time. He also can avoid Brigitte utility completely, as he avoids whole ults with simple doublejumps, and he even bursts through her ult killing her and her team, which is not protected from the burst in comparison to a Zen.

    Quote Originally Posted by EssenceStudio View Post
    Second, While I’m not one of those crazy nerf Brig guys, SHE IS NOT A TROLL PICK. While not has powerful as before her tool are still Strong and is still a Top Support. Also Dive did NOT make it hell for Supports actually aggressive supports like Lucio,Mercy, Moira and Zen were very good.
    Still strong? o.O She is a poor man's Lucio now, I don't know how much you played her yourself on the actual ladder, she gets countered consistently by people who know how to counter her, and is something which is possible in OW due to the ability to switch chars in the game.
    Also Mercy being "aggressive"? /shrug please. She is a total healbot.

    Quote Originally Posted by EssenceStudio View Post
    Third, what did you really mean by that paragraph? My statement was about what happens when you give strong defensive capabilities to supports, I said that Brig is a good example and then you said it was the her being Overturned, Which while true wasn’t really the case. It is her Tanky nature and strong stuns that made her so good(She never really lost this part of her).
    She did lose all her utility on shields and all her damage, while leaving her with a ridiculous hps increase of 0.66 hps. 0.66 hps, with 16.66 hps heals while we have auto-aim tanks in the game doing 60 dps, a Dive tank counters an anti-Dive support now which is a joke. This, and the additional 6 nerfs she received before make her a troll pick now, and she already is the least picked support on the current version's ladder -.-. Played enough on the PTR to see Winstons countering her for the team to push through and overwhelm everybody like a charm.

    Quote Originally Posted by EssenceStudio View Post
    And Then you Blamed the Players which is utter BS, becuase according to Support mains it's always the unwillingness of dps mains to switch.
    Sorry, I forgot, its the supports who need to switch everytime a flanker shows up and be killed even then, while having not the same capability to fight back, and not even be able to zone properly, while reduced to the role of a healbot. But if the dps had to switch to a different flanker or dps, like Sombra, Torb, Doom etc to counter her easily, along with frontline picks like Rein, it is a drama.

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    Beta Player Baronet
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    Quote Originally Posted by Averey View Post
    If off CD, and it is a big if, because you as support has to heal, prioritize healing, be aware of surroundings and teammates and contribute utility and damage at the same time, which requires a different skill set than a flanker doing dps and having to sustain only himself. Her damage output is still less than flankers or dps overall, while being better than some other supports, which she makes up with her healing spezialization requiring teamplay and skill in positioning and zoning to be any effective. Her survivability is also worse than some other healers, with her "autoaim"-ability (does Lex have not the same thing?) not teleporting or making her invisible.
    Funny How you didn’t mention the Great atk spd Buff she gets when your healing well.

    First Off I wouldn't say that Kindle soul is a very team-based ability. Even Solar Blessing isn’t that teambased you can put that beam anywhere and its going to get value. Also Don’t act like she does bad damage a “good” furia is doing 330 every 0.35 seconds. That is not including her movement ability which does another 600 damage/ to put into perspective assuming the player didn’t take Haven, Furia can do a 1700 Burst in 1.2 seconds. That's almost killing Evie. her fall off on her gun isn’t that bad either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Averey View Post
    Oh, don't forget Caut, which is one of the top flankers picks you always see as first or second pick.
    I mean I thought we were talking about Blue cards, but ok. I mean Caut will always be in the game. Like I said previously even if you nerf flanks it's not like caut will change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Averey View Post
    Positioning problem staying in the backline, or trying to heal the frontline from the back? Cool story. Also no one mentioned here supports being able to defend themselves against two flankers at once, please read our posts, it is about giving supports the ability to survive a bit better in a heavily burst meta with flankers outdamaging and having far more mobility than supports, while supports themselves are forced to rely heavily on teammates to sustain against one flanker, if played with a heal build anyway.
    Positioning wise I’m sure you already know the perfect position for healers to be is right by your mid-line damage dealers.(Think of Tyra, Vik, Sha) they provide defensive(if they are good) so you can heal a bit more freely. Also the reason why I mentioned two flanks is because of your oddly worded Statement

    “Using up to defend from just one flanker attempt sounds great, yes.”

    You make it sound like there will be multiple flanker attempts, so I said that if there is a multi-flank attempt there is very little you can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Averey View Post
    You don't seem to have looked at the statistics of all the past seasons, where he remained the top dps pick with over a 5% pickrate compared to other dps who were made troll picks by the flankers burst meta too, being Torb and Sym with like, 0.5% pickrate? Yes, a very "healthy" balance.
    Lol, How Ironic you know who you actually sound like….. Hi-Rez. Your totally hiding behind Stats and Not looking a the answer right in front of you. GENJI IS ONE OF IF NOT THE MOST POPULAR CHARACTERs IN THE GAME. Look at Sombra she is considered to even be a brig counter, but yet she is less picked then Tracer, who is hard-countered by brig. Popularity Runs a Big AAA game like OW. Why Would Genji get picked less by A drastic amount in solo que when he is super flashy and fun to play. He is Kinda like Andro. Even when Andro was bad he still was Picked quite a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Averey View Post
    Reason why he was and is still so popular? Because he is the most versatile dps with a gamechanging ult which practically has very few counters, that is why he is picked the most for such a long time. He also can avoid Brigitte utility completely, as he avoids whole ults with simple doublejumps, and he even bursts through her ult killing her and her team, which is not protected from the burst in comparison to a Zen.
    Game Changing Ult, Nice…. Did you know That most Genji Ult used at High play often are helped, with another ultimate, and or Genji being Nano-Boosted. “PRACTICALLY HAS VERY FEW COUNTERS”, are you kidding me. Any type of CC will basically stop Blade in its tracks. You want to know what actual consistent Game-changing ults are Grav, Valk, Shatter These all consistently change games. Wow another false statement Genji is NOT GOING THROUGH 100 armour you are delusional if you think that, Nor does he get a simple getaway most CC Ult will still catch him, unless he is completely out of the he way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Averey View Post
    Still strong? o.O She is a poor man's Lucio now, I don't know how much you played her yourself on the actual ladder, she gets countered consistently by people who know how to counter her, and is something which is possible in OW due to the ability to switch chars in the game. Also Mercy being "aggressive"? /shrug please. She is a total healbot.


    Poor man’s Lucio????????

    Lucio is used for a Speed Boost to reposition the team, Brig is a Brawler. They are completely different. I never said she was uncounterable, but I did say that she did control the game in a way that very few support have done in the past. Also When I said Aggressive I also meant speed Wise. Mercy has much more mobility then Ana and say Moira, That's why she was used more in dive. Not because she was literally a aggressive character.





    Quote Originally Posted by Averey View Post
    She did lose all her utility on shields and all her damage, while leaving her with a ridiculous hps increase of 0.66 hps. 0.66 hps, with 16.66 hps heals while we have auto-aim tanks in the game doing 60 dps, a Dive tank counters an anti-Dive support now which is a joke. This, and the additional 6 nerfs she received before make her a troll pick now, and she already is the least picked support on the current version's ladder -.-. Played enough on the PTR to see Winstons countering her for the team to push through and overwhelm everybody like a charm.
    She still can Stun through Shields and Still has the CC that made her strong in the first place. Now she just requires Better positioning. Plus the meta is changing. This doesn’t even matter, because I was talking about what Brig was and what she caused not what she is now. Plus even Now she is still a pretty hard counter to most OW flanks.


    Quote Originally Posted by Averey View Post
    Sorry, I forgot, it's the supports who need to switch everytime a flanker shows up and be killed even then, while having not the same capability to fight back, and not even be able to zone properly, while reduced to the role of a healbot. But if the dps had to switch to a different flanker or dps, like Sombra, Torb, Doom etc to counter her easily, along with frontline picks like Rein, it is a drama.

    Not answering; This too tied and not worth my time.


    Last edited by EssenceStudio; 12-06-2018 at 11:37 PM.
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