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Thread: The impact of healing

  1. #21
    Forum Moderator Grand Prince Peinzius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkure View Post
    Because he doesn't die and his team is carrying him. He doesn't have an 80% win rate with Jenos. HIS TEAM has an 80% win rate. He is just carried. Quite depressing, indeed.
    Then, for the rest of the player base, without a pro team to carry us, I think we can delete healing-bot option.


    Again, it is based on the other 4 "idiots" carrying his butt.
    You seem to assume it's impossible to carry with a healing playstyle, which I think is untrue. In this particular case, Jenos is currently uncarryable because of his balance; but a healing Ying, Seris or Damba can absolutely carry. Maybe you can't carry with healing because that's not your playstyle and that's fine, I can't carry with Bomb Ying because it doesn't *resonate* with me (puns for the win). There are many ways to carry and healing is a viable way to do that. I think all playstyles have equal merit unless your playstyle involves Skye


    Jk
    Last edited by Peinzius; 10-10-2018 at 02:00 PM.
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  2. #22
    Member Baron Luni8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M3RC3N4RI0 View Post
    He is Diamond. You can only play a team of 2 players in diamond. I could check if he played in a team but I doubt it.
    Most of the time, he plays with Idropbodies or Rubbu, top10 players worldwide if I'm not mistaken.
    So yes, 2 of the best players carrying each other can have a 80% win rate with jenos.
    I don't think his winrate reflect how hard he can carry with a support champion. He mostly never plays alone. Same as gerrah, he always plays with tenner or fisheko.
    Last time i was watching spunkki on twitch. He was practicing his ying in casual, alone.... guess what, he couldn't carry his team by himself. The guy is a world champion.

  3. #23
    Beta Player Prince GaoShun's Avatar
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    Can a healing bot carry?
    I actually did that once or twice, however it's true it wasn't me that did the damage.
    The match went like this, Androxus dueled an enemy, his HP is very low and he was losing, I tossed him a healing flask and he won the duel. Repeat that for other teammates and voila I carried that match. Everyone in the game thank me and admitted we would have lost without the timely healing. That's pretty much carrying the match IMO.

    And to be honest, someone also did that for me when I wasn't playing a support. And I was like, yeah that guy playing support carried us with his heals.

    However, I do understand having 10k dmg and 200k healing is not ideal for support, really low damage means you are pretty much just hide behind a wall
    being able to juggle between tossing heals and doing some damage is the ideal play, but hey what do I know.... I am not a pro heck I am a low rank
    thank you for curing my Paladins addiction

  4. #24
    Beta Player Sovereign Prince SiderumNocte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M3RC3N4RI0
    I recently saw the video of Vex30 playing Jenos in ranked. It was depressing. He plays Jenos as pure heal bot. His deck is both healing duration and cool-down cards on V and heal-range on III. He is always at maximum distance seeking the safest position. Judged by Chavsberry he plays the worst way even possible. I just checked his Paladins stats. He got an 80% winrate on Jenos. In words eighty(!!!) percent. That's even more depressing.
    This for some reason is quite common in Jenos players. They just sit back and place heals on whoever they can. The major difference between the lower ranks and skill levels and the higher is that Support players do not need to "frag" as hard or healing becomes far more important than the damage itself because you have players that can essentially pick up the "slack".

    At the lower levels and mid levels a mixture of damage and healing is more important rather than just one over the other. It really does come down to that game is different in how it is approached.

    This is one of the reasons Life Exchange Ying is popular in EU especially. I love what Life Exchange brings to the table but I also know that you're not gonna get high damage in the scope of supports using it either but the healing often is more than enough to offset the lack of damage and not just that but the ability to keep allies alive who will make up for that lack of damage.

    If Focus Lens was brought to Ying's base kit her damage would get a huge boost and she could contribute more to the fight. This was also sort of one of the points I was attempting to get across and that is the nuance of talents and loadouts. These talents have a wide variety of pros and cons they enforce on the player. Ying was already in my view a pure heal and damage support and she could do a good job at both even a balanced job. Life Exchange just redirects the focus to the healing while sacrificing one part of her kit and changing it into something else. The Illusion damage really does help with Ying's damage overall and it definitely is sort of missed whilst using Life Exchange.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3RC3N4RI0
    I also watched the video of Vex30 playing Exchange-Ying. Let me have a look... he did 193K heal and 19K damage. This I would describe as a player who "almost never does any damage". His winrate with Ying in Ranked is 69%. I doubt that the 69% winrate somehow comes from the 19K damage, they are based on the 190K heal.

    I am probably a bit one sided here, because my aim is abysmal bad, but from my experience, in general the more effective way to play a support is pumping heal. There are exceptions like Pip. In general though it is easier to do 1000 heal with a Ying/Jenos/Damba/Seris than 1000 damage.
    Honestly 19k seems a little bit low there for an already low damage outcome. I feel with that amount of healing you should actually be sitting around at least 28k+ damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luni8
    That's why Furia was exactly how a support champion is supposed to be.
    And what Hi-rez did by creating Furia was the right way, unfortunately they back off from that.
    You know main difference is that Furia even at release was on a totally different level damage wise than all the supports. I've made the point on another reply that damn near every other support needed to use a talent to get those insanely high damage numbers and Furia just got it on her base kit. If the other supports were in a similar spot I would be more or less fine with it. Her damage hardly got nerfed anyway. It really stemmed from her firerate. I think Furia was nerfed in just about every way but what is new such is the EvilMojo way.

    I do agree that perhaps this video was more about trying to clear up this misconception that just healing and nothing but healing was the "real way" to play support but I feel he actually advocated for the opposite which is why I took exception with his video and really just wanted to make it clear that The best Support is the Support that Understands Priority and Agency and is efficient and effective with that Priority and Agency and the same goes go for the other classes.

    Even at the Pro Level most support players understand this it is just that they focus more on healing rather than damage because at that level of play healing is more important and the damage can be made up by your DPS and Frontline Players.
    Patch 1.4 Ying Best Healer in the Damn Game.

    Support Skye is a better healer than Jenos.

  5. #25
    Beta Player Prince IamRick1996's Avatar
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    This thread is getting interesting

    *grabs popcorn*


    I saw this thread when it was posted and didnt bother saying anything as of the moment and waited till Valkure comes lol
    BUFF SEA SERVERS!!

    I MAIN FRONTLINES
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  6. #26
    Beta Player Knight Derpions's Avatar
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    In my opinion the very strong healers Ying and Seris should be played mainly as healing bot.
    Ok with Ying u can pick lifelike, Place an illusion every 5 sec and do some damage.

    But it is most important to keep your tanks alife. With seris, void abides and chronos u can keep your Tanks nearly immortal on the point, what has to be your main goal. Tanks are the most important characters to capture an objective.

    You can acctually outheal damage. First there is damage falloff, second every tanks has defense abilitys which they can use to grant the healer some time to heal them.


    Grover and Champions like him are something else. He lives from being agressive, but I Think a seris or ying heal bot has more impact on the game.

    Remember for the tanks you are the most important champion in the match. Stay relatively close to them so they can defend you.
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  7. #27
    Beta Player Emperor Valkure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M3RC3N4RI0 View Post
    He is Diamond. You can only play a team of 2 players in diamond. I could check if he played in a team but I doubt it.
    It doesn't change anything. There are 3 other guys in the team. I can assure you that, by playing healing bot, you can win only on the following 2 situations:
    1) enemy team/support is shit (or shittier than you :-P )
    2) your team is carrying hard.
    No other ways. Instead, for carrying as a support, you need to make miracles.
    http://paladins.guru/censor/match/Kv8
    Wait for the full narrative on happy thread. But guess who got most dmg yesterday? It was a lost game, for Ash trolling. And yet...

    Quote Originally Posted by M3RC3N4RI0 View Post
    From what I saw he is not defeating flanks with his superior aim but he works with good positioning. He thinks two steps ahead and simply is not there where the flank will (probably) attack. He plays very defensive, at least with Ying and Jenos.
    As said, I am not paid to play. So, if my whole "fun" is to make others have fun and just escape whole game, this is not what an fps should be. We're here for shooting things. Otherwise we've just carried. No, thanks.
    That's also the reason why anyone on Earth is saying "We won due to SupportX for s/he healed us so much!". No, PotG and appreciation go to Andro with 34 kills, even if he was always healed for whole game. "For playing support you just have to press Q!", how many times have you heard that?
    I play to make a difference for my team, not to be carried.


    Quote Originally Posted by M3RC3N4RI0 View Post
    Not me. Vex30 a pro-player with 69% winrate on Ying played absolutely shit.
    In my other account I have 74% win rate with Ying, going full bombing. And so?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peinzius View Post
    You seem to assume it's impossible to carry with a healing playstyle, which I think is untrue.
    In my experience, it is. If you have proof of the contrary, I can't wait to see them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peinzius View Post
    I can't carry with Bomb Ying because it doesn't *resonate* with me (puns for the win)
    You can carry with Ying even with Focusing Lens, but you can't carry without dmg. Heal for 300k, if anyone is killing enemies, you will lose.

    Quote Originally Posted by GaoShun View Post
    Can a healing bot carry?
    I actually did that once or twice, however it's true it wasn't me that did the damage.
    The match went like this, Androxus dueled an enemy, his HP is very low and he was losing, I tossed him a healing flask and he won the duel. Repeat that for other teammates and voila I carried that match.
    If Andro was unable to kill (ie: shit aim), you would still have lost. Andro carried, not you.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiderumNocte View Post
    healing becomes far more important than the damage itself because you have players that can essentially pick up the "slack".
    As I've said: they are carrying, you are just there for random buff.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiderumNocte View Post
    You know main difference is that Furia even at release was on a totally different level damage wise than all the supports. I've made the point on another reply that damn near every other support needed to use a talent to get those insanely high damage numbers and Furia just got it on her base kit.
    Because they've been nerfed to hell, some of them a total of 9 times!
    ALL supports should have been buffed to Furia's level (ie: unnerfed), that's the problem.
    Wanna go healing bot? Ok, pick suitable LC, get great heals and wave dmg goodbye.
    Wanna go full dmg? Then why I can't pick a decent LC to deal GREAT dmg, if I wave heals goodbye? I want to choose.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiderumNocte View Post
    Even at the Pro Level most support players understand this it is just that they focus more on healing rather than damage because at that level of play healing is more important and the damage can be made up by your DPS and Frontline Players.
    That means, except for 2%, everyone else doesn't need an healing bot. But we have almost no choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by IamRick1996 View Post
    I saw this thread when it was posted and didnt bother saying anything as of the moment and waited till Valkure comes lol
    ¬_¬

    Quote Originally Posted by Derpions View Post
    In my opinion the very strong healers Ying and Seris should be played mainly as healing bot.
    Ok with Ying u can pick lifelike, Place an illusion every 5 sec and do some damage.
    Watch my game above.
    Last edited by Valkure; 10-11-2018 at 02:28 AM.
    I've finally found it!

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  8. #28
    Beta Player Prince GaoShun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkure View Post
    If Andro was unable to kill (ie: shit aim), you would still have lost. Andro carried, not you..
    Nope, it was me.
    He was losing the fight so his opponent did have a better aim. My healing made him has a second or third chance to win the fight.

    There was a PoTG a pro (on Paladinsgame tweet a few weeks ago) where his drogoz did a triple kill but all comments pointed how a Damba kept him alive throughout the kill, without the heal, he won't even get a kill.
    thank you for curing my Paladins addiction

  9. #29
    Beta Player Archduke GeSteYiam's Avatar
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    Full agro support and healing bot aren't the only way to play support.
    Healing bot will make the game 4v5 when caut sets in and full agro is a liability cause you could be doing more damage as a dps/flank and your team dies from the lack of healing faster than than you are fragging.
    If you kill everyone as agro support cause you are 10x better than the enemy isn't and accurate game to make a point.
    The good support knows when to attack and when to heal.

    Quote Originally Posted by IamRick1996 View Post
    This thread is getting interesting

    *grabs popcorn*


    I saw this thread when it was posted and didnt bother saying anything as of the moment and waited till Valkure comes lol
    I like the way you think.
    Bad thing is not many people have the petience to argue with her since penzius became a mod.

  10. #30
    Beta Player Emperor Valkure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GaoShun View Post
    Nope, it was me.
    He was losing the fight so his opponent did have a better aim. My healing made him has a second or third chance to win the fight.
    You've HELPED HIM, not carried. As said before: you can heal for 300k, but if anyone is shooting, you will lose.
    I am not saying that healing is not important (how many times I was the one keeping my ally alive to win the 1vs1!), I am saying that you can't go healing-bot and think to win like that. You must know when to heal (help flank to win 1vs1) and when to deal dmg. But if you have no way to deal any dmg, as soon as Caut 2 is there (or you are focused), you are dead weight for the team.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeSteYiam View Post
    The good support knows when to attack and when to heal.
    Exactly. But they are removing the possibility to attack, that's the problem. :-/

    Quote Originally Posted by GeSteYiam View Post
    I like the way you think.
    ¬_¬

    Quote Originally Posted by GeSteYiam View Post
    Bad thing is not many people have the petience to argue with her since penzius became a mod.
    Guys, in case you didn't notice it, I don't argue for the sake of arguing, but because I am trying (hopefully HiRez will read) to avoid this game in becoming the shit many other games are.
    Playing healing bot is not fun. Since here we have loadouts and LCs, they MUST allow different play styles. For everyone, not just for flank and DD.
    I've finally found it!

    New to the forum? Have a look >>>here<<<! Some useful answers.

    #AggressiveSupports
    I'm tired of repeating the same things, watch this: link

    "It's just Casual/ Go Ranked if you want a decent team/You are low tier, so you're bad." Rage

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