View Poll Results: Is Jenos' Grip a Problem?

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  • Yes, it's like getting -removed- by Darth Vader.

    2 10.53%
  • No, you just don't know how to play around him.

    17 89.47%
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Thread: Jenos is... Interesting.

  1. #11
    Beta Player Duke MrsCrii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joccasela View Post
    Jenos just needs to looks towards his target and press a button. It is an auto-aim skill. Requires no skill to use at all. It is very easy to use. Void Grip doesn't need to be aimed like Furia's Pyre or Damba's stun snake. Btw it burns all the charges of the dash. It is not a bug.

    All other skills that can cancel movement skills needs aiming. Expect Khan's ulti another overpowered CC.

    Inara's Treacherous Ground is a talent. Inara will need to choose that talent to cancel movement skills. Jenos doesn't need to choose The Power Cosmeum to cancel movement skills. Also Inara's Warder's Field is not ranged skill.

    Evie's Ice Storm(it is an ulti not a skill) has a 0.5 pre-cast time and you need to get very close to your target. Your target will be already away if he used his skill before you start casting Ice storm. And no-one with right mind wouldn't dash into Ice storm. They will walk out of it then use their skill. Maeve can do that easily with her double jump. Ice Storm is used to PREVENT, not cancel movement skills.

    Long story short:

    Void grip is auto aim.
    Has a very low cooldown. 12 seconds is too low for such a powerful skill.
    Ranged.
    Very easy to use. You just need to look towards your target and press a button.

    You say others can do it too.

    Damba's stun is a projectile. It is not an auto aim press one button skill. It needs to be timed and aimed well. Which is difficult.
    Sha-Lin can stun too with Impaler Arrow too. Which is a projectile too. Which needs to be aimed and timed well. And it requires you to push them against a wall. Why don't you try to stun Evie with impaler arrow while she is soaring. Difficult to do unlike Jenos Void Grip.
    All Jenos need to do is look at his target and press one button. Yes this is outstanding compared to other examples. So easy.

    Long story shot: Nano is right.
    Void Grip's targeting is fidgety. Sometimes, yes, you can just look at your target and hit a button for success. Other times you have to be fairly precise and may need to mash the button even then. It's not as easy as you make it out to be. Especially on a fast moving target like Evie. I'm guessing you haven't played Jenos much.

    That sucks for Androxus, still seems like that should be a bug to me, but whatever. It's still hard to grab him while dashing, though. Unless you grab him at the end of a dash when he has dashes left. So either the Andro makes the mistake of ending one of his first dashes in front of a Jenos or the Jenos just reacts faster than him. Either way it's one player or the other making a mistake or out playing the other. And either way unless a teammate helps the Jenos he's still probably dead because Andro can still shoot him.

    Ice Storm is a good way to prevent movement abilities to lock someone down and kill them, yes. But it can just as easily be used to lock someone down who is already using a movement skill. For instance, a billowing Zhin. Poor Zhin. :P

    You have a very strange idea of what a short cool down is. 12 seconds is a pretty long time in this game. If Jenos is giving you so much trouble, wait until he grips someone else before closing with him. That's 12 seconds you've now got to kill him which should be several times what you need.

    Yes it's ranged, but the range is pretty limited. Stay back and poke if you must.

    You forget Torvald. His Nullify can be considered auto-aim, though I would argue it is easier to hit than Void Grip, generally. It will take you out of your movement skill just as well, or prevent you from using one to escape. And it's got some range, around the same as Void Grip though probably a little less.

    Damba's stun takes more aim but it can be used an unlimited number of times limited only by reload time which can be reduced with cards and Deft Hands. And it's ranged. Sha Lin's has better range but takes more aim with a lower cool down but requires a wall. Hard to say exactly where it lands in usefulness versus Void Grip but certainly Jenos can't follow up on his the way Sha Lin can. :P

    Grover can cripple from across the map, Bomb King's Grumpy Bomb can also do the job, as well as King Bomb, of course. Furia's stun can get you through walls, Khan can ult you, Inara drops a Warder's Field in your path, etc., etc. There are plenty of ways of interrupting a movement skill and most of them don't leave the player using it defenseless like Void Grip does. Just.shoot.him.

  2. #12
    Beta Player Duke GaoShun's Avatar
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    void grip is only a survival tool and without power cosmeum all you need to do is press F to escape... nerfing that would make Jenos useless
    thank you for curing my Paladins addiction

  3. #13
    Beta Player Count Evanstanislass's Avatar
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    VG is good for overtime since it makes your enemy immobilized.
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    Beta Player Baron
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    OMFG. You cannot cancel billow with CC. There is nothing you can do after Zhin Billows. Poor Zhin? Zhin is OP. Ice storm can't stop a billowing Zhin. Are you sure you play this game ?

    Void Grip has a short cooldown.
    Void Grip is ranged.
    Void Grip is auto aim. Requires no aiming.
    Void Grip is easy to use. Requires no skill nor practice.
    Void Grip doesn't need a talent to cancel movement skills.

    That skill needs a cooldown nerf. It should be at least 15 seconds. 12 is too short for a strong skill like that.

  5. #15
    Beta Player Emperor Valkure's Avatar
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    At OP: you want to know how to counter Jenos? Follow my guide:
    1) pick Jenos as main healer
    2) play with him for about 2 weeks (always only Jenos)
    3) profit
    You need to play a champ to learn how to counter him. And Jenos is quite easy to counter, on top of that.
    I've finally found it!

    New to the forum? Have a look >>>here<<<! Some useful answers.

    #StopPlayingSupports
    Let them see how a game with shit-nerfed supports is.

  6. #16
    Beta Player Duke IamRick1996's Avatar
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    Ill just make things clear here

    Jenos' Void Grip is indeed a strong CC skill. However I see no need to nerf it

    There are plenty of ways to playing around this skill.

    First is that you can escape the void grip by using your movement skill. You are out of luck unfortunately if you are using Skye or Lex. Skye has no movement skill, and lex slide only works if he is near the ground. (Yes I am aware that there are others who are incapable of escaping, but Nanomachines is talking mostly of flanks)

    Now. Before you continue reading, think as if you were the one playing jenos, and your enemy is a flank who likes to kill you. You already know that using grip on the flank would be a waste because he/she can escape out of it anyway. What can you do to survive his/her attack?

    There are three possible answers.

    1. Never go away from a teammate, grip the flank when he's near and if he does escape, hed still be sitting duck coz he just used his movement skill to escape the grip. One skill wasted for another and you can profit from the enemy flank being killed by your ally

    2. Grip the enemy flank when he has used his movement skill(or is in the duration of the the movement skill such as in the case of Buck's leap and evie's soar) You cancel their movement skill plus it puts their movement skill on cooldown. Furthermore they could no longer escape as they had used their movement skill already. Profit as it could mean a secured kill on the flank.

    3. Use the talent power cosmeum to grip the enemy flank. Regardless if they havent used their movement skill. OR if you had grip them after or during their movement skill, it wont matter as they cannot escape anyways. Another profit and a secured kill

    ----

    Now that you know what a jenos could to counter play your flank. Go back to thinking that you are the flankk trying to kill the goddamn jenos with the fucking void grip.

    You know what he can do. Especially if he is near allies, a void grip on you could easily mean your champion's death.
    How can you counter play this?

    First and foremost answer? CC reduction. There are cards and and item who provide this CC reduction. Among the flank champions, there are only two blessed with a card that provides CC reduc. Moji and Skye (fortunately its more likely that they wont those) And the item that provides CC reduc is resilience. It initially costs 300 credits (600 at level 2 and 900 at level 3)

    What does CC reduc do? It reduces the duration of the said void grip. Void grip has a duration of 2.5 sec. With resil you can reduce this to 1.75sec/1sec/0.25sec (respective to each item level) Basically that if you even manage to buy resil at level 2, void grip would no longer be a problem. You no longer have to worry about using your movement skill to escape. You no longer have to wait for you to die as jenos' grips you. Even moreso if you have resil at level 3

    2nd solution would be CC immunity. Sometimes even 0.25sec hold is enough kill a flank. Esp at this current two tap insta death meta. So you wouldnt even like being gripped at all in the first place. A solution would be to have CC immunity. You dont have to worry coz you cannot be gripped at all while you have this.

    Unfortunately only zhin and moji have this in their basic skills(billow and magic barrier) and the only talent that does provide CC immunity is on lex's heroism, which isnt useful against the likes of grip.

    However its not like you cant have CC immunity at all. There are other champs that is capable of providing CC immunity to their allies. and that is firing line khan and totemic ward grohk

    This leads to the last and most reliable method of counter play against jenos grip: Asking for help from a teammate. What, you think only jenos has teammate that would help him? Only supports have the privilege of receiving help?

    Lol

    Anyways, the best champion to ask for help is your frontline. Especially if you have the double frontline composition.
    You got gripped? Your frontline can find ways to protect you while are gripped.

    If your frontline can't help coz he too stubborn or is needed on point, you still have other allies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joccasela View Post
    Void Grip has a short cooldown.
    Void Grip is ranged.
    Void Grip is auto aim. Requires no aiming.
    Void Grip is easy to use. Requires no skill nor practice.
    Void Grip doesn't need a talent to cancel movement skills.
    No need for a nerf on grip. 12 seconds is long enough as it is. Grip maybe ranged but its not like it has infinite range. grip also has auto aim but that can easily lead to gripping the wrong enemy. It requires skill to properly grip the correct enemy and it needs practice to properly gauge the distance between you and enemy
    BUFF SEA SERVERS!!

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  7. #17
    Beta Player Baron
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    You guys keep missing the point like a stormtrooper. Resilience DOES NOT BLOCK CC. It only shortens the effect time.
    Void grip CANCELS movement skills and there is nothing a flanker can do to counter that.
    You can't take Grok and Khan with you to do flanking. Unless you can get a pocket Grok or pocket Khan. Flankers take paths other champions can't take and attack from flank. So your solution is tank and support should forget about objective and babysit the flanker ? They supposed to run after their flanker instead of capturing the point ?

    Void Grip is overpowered

    Short cooldown
    Easy to use
    Auto aim
    Cancels movement skills. Which is devastating for flankers. (No Khan and Grok can't help you while you are flanking at enemy backlines. They are not supposed to babysit flankers. And they don't have the mobility to keep up with flankers.) Also don't mention Zhin cuz he is OP. He can counter almost everything in the game.
    Can counter all the flankers.
    Can only be countered by a few champions.(ones with CC immunity)

    Solution is simple increase the cooldown. 12 seconds for such powerful skill is too short.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by IamRick1996 View Post
    Cut for post length, but TL;DR Jenos needs it for survival, and you can buy things to mitigate the time it holds you. Team up with another dive character and meme on him.
    That's fair. I understand he needs it to counter getting dove, but he also has his "Peace Out" fly away ability which also works to his survivability as well, so it's not the only defensive tool that he has.

    But it isn't like he can just sit on it until he needs it -- he can also use it mid-fight, and a lot of non-flank guys are still gonna die, too, because no matter how uncoordinated you are, when there is a glowing, flying person standing completely still, the entire team is gonna shoot at them. For instance, I tried playing around it by attacking in the big team fight in the middle of my team, where I could have the support from my team. But even then, I was still Gripped and almost instantly killed, regardless, within a second of my being Gripped, with no reaction time, no way to dodge, no way out. I was just... Deleted, for the lack of a better term.

    The point still stands: Skye and Lex are just hard countered by Jenos in the same vein as Tracer V Brigitte, except you can't switch off to a different hero like Maeve who has a better time against him. So what about -- if not hero switching, which seems to be a pretty drastic change for something so minute -- making Smoke Bomb negate CC effects?

    If you did that, you could make an escape from not only Jenos' Succ, but other normally inescapable things as well.

    As for the coordination, you have to remember: I'm not playing on PC -- I'm on the Switch, and coordination is almost impossible there. Actually, I think it is impossible on the Switch since there is no way to talk to your teammates. It isn't like the PC where I can just press to speak and someone will Dive with me, it's just me and whatever bee-like sign language I can use to hopefully coax my teammates into following me.

  9. #19
    Beta Player Duke MrsCrii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joccasela View Post
    You guys keep missing the point like a stormtrooper. Resilience DOES NOT BLOCK CC. It only shortens the effect time.
    Void grip CANCELS movement skills and there is nothing a flanker can do to counter that.
    You can't take Grok and Khan with you to do flanking. Unless you can get a pocket Grok or pocket Khan. Flankers take paths other champions can't take and attack from flank. So your solution is tank and support should forget about objective and babysit the flanker ? They supposed to run after their flanker instead of capturing the point ?

    Void Grip is overpowered

    Short cooldown
    Easy to use
    Auto aim
    Cancels movement skills. Which is devastating for flankers. (No Khan and Grok can't help you while you are flanking at enemy backlines. They are not supposed to babysit flankers. And they don't have the mobility to keep up with flankers.) Also don't mention Zhin cuz he is OP. He can counter almost everything in the game.
    Can counter all the flankers.
    Can only be countered by a few champions.(ones with CC immunity)

    Solution is simple increase the cooldown. 12 seconds for such powerful skill is too short.
    Yes, we are all well aware of how Resilience works but it will shorten the duration enough to survive, generally. Yes, it will cancel your mobility skill but guess what? As quite a few flank mains in this forum will happily tell you, you don't use your mobility skill to dive on someone like Jenos...or anyone, generally. You save that for your escape because that's what it is, an escape. If you've got your team around you can get away with using mobility to catch up with an enemy and finish them but when you're diving the back line you've got to leave yourself an escape route or you're going to die. That doesn't just apply to Jenos.

    Your lack of experience is showing here...yes, sometimes a support or front line will escort a flank or flanks to help them get their job done. That is a viable tactic often used when you've got multiple tanks/supports or when you've already taken the point and are zoning. Khan is an off-tank, though a relatively tanky one, so he can totally escort a flank to help them take out a pesky Jenos or whatever. This is a team game so working with your team mates when you're having trouble (or just in general, really) is important.

    And again, 12 seconds is not a short cool down and Void Grip is not as easy and assured as you make it out to be. If you use your movement skill to dive a Jenos and he grips you and you die, that's you being outplayed not him being OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nanomachines View Post
    That's fair. I understand he needs it to counter getting dove, but he also has his "Peace Out" fly away ability which also works to his survivability as well, so it's not the only defensive tool that he has.

    But it isn't like he can just sit on it until he needs it -- he can also use it mid-fight, and a lot of non-flank guys are still gonna die, too, because no matter how uncoordinated you are, when there is a glowing, flying person standing completely still, the entire team is gonna shoot at them. For instance, I tried playing around it by attacking in the big team fight in the middle of my team, where I could have the support from my team. But even then, I was still Gripped and almost instantly killed, regardless, within a second of my being Gripped, with no reaction time, no way to dodge, no way out. I was just... Deleted, for the lack of a better term.

    The point still stands: Skye and Lex are just hard countered by Jenos in the same vein as Tracer V Brigitte, except you can't switch off to a different hero like Maeve who has a better time against him. So what about -- if not hero switching, which seems to be a pretty drastic change for something so minute -- making Smoke Bomb negate CC effects?

    If you did that, you could make an escape from not only Jenos' Succ, but other normally inescapable things as well.

    As for the coordination, you have to remember: I'm not playing on PC -- I'm on the Switch, and coordination is almost impossible there. Actually, I think it is impossible on the Switch since there is no way to talk to your teammates. It isn't like the PC where I can just press to speak and someone will Dive with me, it's just me and whatever bee-like sign language I can use to hopefully coax my teammates into following me.
    Stellar Wind is an escape ability but it doesn't always secure an escape. It's not super fast and many flanks have their own mobility skills so he will often die if he relies solely on that. Plus it's probably more commonly used for repositioning to heal allies. Void Grip is an essential part of his kit for defending himself and aiding his teammates.

    You'd be surprised how many times I've Void Gripped someone and my teammates completely ignored them. I've died a few times playing Jenos that way. :P But Resilience will help you with that, as well as saving your mobility skill for escape rather than attack when you know there's something like a Void Grip in the enemy arsenal.

    Skye and Lex are perfectly capable of whittling down Jenos' health from out of Void Grip range and then dive when he's low. At which point it won't matter much if they're gripped since you can still shoot while gripped. Unless there are allies near, in which case you shouldn't be diving anyway (or you didn't notice them in which case you die :P ).

    Skye is getting a rework so hopefully when that happens she'll have more mobility or escape potential than she does now. She's pretty much bottom tier of all champs right now.

    Is there a VGS equivalent on Switch? If not there certainly ought to be. But if you were on PC you'd know that there usually isn't a whole lot of coordination here, either. :P

    If you're flanking in the back line alone, as it sounds like you are, the best bet is to poke his health down from afar before engaging or saving your mobility skill, when you have one, for escape rather than for diving in. Otherwise you're taking your life into your own hands, and not just with Jenos' Void Grip.


    There are times when it is appropriate and smart to use a mobility skill to dive the back line to take someone out but it's always going to be a risk. Sometimes it doesn't pay off and you're left with no way out. If you don't die then it's either because your enemies dropped the ball, you played really well, or you got help.

  10. #20
    Beta Player Knight Tuaya's Avatar
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    Void Grip cancels movement abilities when these are being performed, ok...
    Void Grip can be countered with cc effects and resilience, reducing it's duration, ok....

    But both sides of the argument, those saying Void Grip is OP, and those saying it can be effectively countered, will keep to think the same way and never arrive to an agreement.
    UNLESS this is said, which will meet everybody half way. And that's the following:

    If a flanker goes 1-1 with a Jenos, all that Jenos can do is try to flee, or Void Grip first then try to flee. Because he certainly can't outdamage him, nor outheal his damage to survive.

    While Void Gripping, Jenos can't do anything else other than his base movement.
    On the contrary, while Void Gripped, a flank can do everything, except to use their base movement. (unless the talent to cripple is used, but that is not the point of this thread according to who created it). Which means he can use primary attack, and both of their abilities to deal more damage or break free. While Jenos only watches.

    So Void Grip will only delay Jenos' death, unless he is aided by his teammates.

    With the same spirit, if that happens, the flanker should know better and coordinate subsequent attacks with another attacker to succeed in his assassination, or show superior game awareness and attack when the time is right.

    TL/DR
    If a good Jenos is dominating a flank attacking him, then the flanker is not being efficient with their approach. Flankers have an undeniable supremacy over supports right now and is only up to them to capitalize it.
    Void Grip is absolutely fine right now.

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