View Poll Results: READ THE POST BEFORE VOTING: How should fusillade be balanced

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    1 1.92%
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    3 5.77%
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    7 13.46%
  • 4.

    6 11.54%
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    11 21.15%
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    2 3.85%
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    3 5.77%
  • 8.

    15 28.85%
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    4 7.69%
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Thread: Fusillade balance

  1. #21
    Beta Player Viscount KicsitCsicska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarenzed View Post
    Reign of Terror was a crap idea to begin with.
    When they added a 4th legendary for every champion it seemed mostly like they had no idea so they just made random shit talents that were mostly based on taking the downsides away from abilities instead of actually enhancing them. Like 80% of the new ones are crap.

    Just trying to change the values doesn't help at all, what these talents like Reign of Terror need is an entire rework.
    Yes, most of them are very primitive, especially Barik's, Cassie's... But Reign of Terror gives a new thing: you don't have to reload this before, makes him more dinamical, defend against suprises, so change his play style a little, you know. I also agree with a rework, but this coulden't stays at its current form: it's realy under powered.

    Anyway I have got some other Talent ideas for every champ, which are a more deliberated. I meant them to 5th Talents but CatManDude said to these previous post:

    Quote Originally Posted by CatManDude View Post
    I would say that these would suit as better replacements for the 4th legendary cards that got added. These are muuuuuuch more creative than most, if not all, of the legendary cards that were added in OB64.
    You can read them here: http://forums.paladins.com/showthrea...-Talents-ideas

  2. #22
    Beta Player Marquess Sarenzed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KicsitCsicska View Post
    Yes, most of them are very primitive, especially Barik's, Cassie's... But Reign of Terror gives a new thing: you don't have to reload this before, makes him more dinamical, defend against suprises, so change his play style a little, you know. I also agree with a rework, but this coulden't stays at its current form: it's realy under powered.

    Anyway I have got some other Talent ideas for every champ, which are a more deliberated. I meant them to 5th Talents but CatManDude said to these previous post:



    You can read them here: http://forums.paladins.com/showthrea...-Talents-ideas
    Thanks

    But... the problem with Reign of Terror is the following:
    Bonus damage is neglectable
    The instant fire is mostly helpful when you're under a lot pressure
    aka 1v1
    aka 1v1 with flank, so probably on close range
    Well, on close range you can take up to 1000 self damage from salvo.

    Reign of Terror is like these talents because they didn't really think what playstile this talent should enable, what it's supposed to enhance, what you're supposed to do with it, what its strengths are going to be. If they would have, they would've added "salvo no longer deals self damage" and something like "Dropping below 40% health resets the CD of salvo" or different CD reduction to pair up with the instant fire to enable you to actually use it in a situation where this instant salvo is actually useful.

    The instant salvo is the core of reign of terror. But without these additions, it will be worthless. But adding these will make it super annoying to play against drogoz since the instant 1500 burst he can use without any downsides would be really annoying for any flank.

    That's why RoT needs a rework: The core mechanic only works with certain additions, but then it would be just not fun anymore to play against.

    Again, I really want drogoz to get a rocket jumping talent :P
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  3. #23
    Beta Player Viscount KicsitCsicska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarenzed View Post
    Thanks

    But... the problem with Reign of Terror is the following:
    Bonus damage is neglectable
    The instant fire is mostly helpful when you're under a lot pressure
    aka 1v1
    aka 1v1 with flank, so probably on close range
    Well, on close range you can take up to 1000 self damage from salvo.

    Reign of Terror is like these talents because they didn't really think what playstile this talent should enable, what it's supposed to enhance, what you're supposed to do with it, what its strengths are going to be. If they would have, they would've added "salvo no longer deals self damage" and something like "Dropping below 40% health resets the CD of salvo" or different CD reduction to pair up with the instant fire to enable you to actually use it in a situation where this instant salvo is actually useful.

    The instant salvo is the core of reign of terror. But without these additions, it will be worthless. But adding these will make it super annoying to play against drogoz since the instant 1500 burst he can use without any downsides would be really annoying for any flank.

    That's why RoT needs a rework: The core mechanic only works with certain additions, but then it would be just not fun anymore to play against.

    Again, I really want drogoz to get a rocket jumping talent :P
    You've got the truth, RoT realy doesen't help him against flanks, bec of self dmg...

    This rocket jumper would be a very funy one, but let's imagine: A new player starts to play with Paladins, and watch a dragon, who shoots under his own ass, and jumping so high

    What do you think about my Talent for him:
    Digestion: Increase Fire Spit's projectile speed by 100%. He gains 60% lifesteal against the enemy who's marked by a direct contact Spit. Reduce Fire Spit's cooldown time by 2 sec. (Masterful reduce the cd also at a direct contact)

  4. #24
    Beta Player Marquess Sarenzed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KicsitCsicska View Post
    You've got the truth, RoT realy doesen't help him against flanks, bec of self dmg...

    This rocket jumper would be a very funy one, but let's imagine: A new player starts to play with Paladins, and watch a dragon, who shoots under his own ass, and jumping so high

    What do you think about my Talent for him:
    Digestion: Increase Fire Spit's projectile speed by 100%. He gains 60% lifesteal against the enemy who's marked by a direct contact Spit. Reduce Fire Spit's cooldown time by 2 sec. (Masterful reduce the cd also at a direct contact)
    I like that idea...
    The only thing is that it'll be just so hard to detonate the spit, so you're forced to go for direct hits.
    What about implementing it that way:
    Re-activating fire spit after it's fired will cause it to increase it's projectile speed by 200%.
    This would still allow you to use the fire spit for the detonation

    I don't know about the life steal tho...
    Yeah, 60% is great and additional bonus damage would maybe make it to broken...
    But life steal gets mitigated by caut and doesn't help you deal more damage
    So maybe a 50% slow for 2 seconds?

    Maybe we could rework fusillade into this and RoT into rocket jumping?
    PLEASE FIX YOUR GAME

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  5. #25
    Beta Player Viscount KicsitCsicska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarenzed View Post
    I like that idea...
    The only thing is that it'll be just so hard to detonate the spit, so you're forced to go for direct hits.
    What about implementing it that way:
    Re-activating fire spit after it's fired will cause it to increase it's projectile speed by 200%.
    This would still allow you to use the fire spit for the detonation

    I don't know about the life steal tho...
    Yeah, 60% is great and additional bonus damage would maybe make it to broken...
    But life steal gets mitigated by caut and doesn't help you deal more damage
    So maybe a 50% slow for 2 seconds?

    Maybe we could rework fusillade into this and RoT into rocket jumping?
    I would keep the slow and other cc to the supports. Bk has already cc and jumping ability, I don't wanna make drogoz too similar to him as much.
    Fusillade is a very primitive Talent too but rework his 2 talents? What do you think about this one: Fusillade (or the new talent) increases the damage by 50% but decrease the rocket's speed by 30%?
    Or buff Digestion: increased the rockets speed's too for Digestion talent, and he could shot from far, where he is more safe against caut
    Last edited by KicsitCsicska; 06-08-2018 at 11:32 AM.

  6. #26
    Beta Player Viscount KicsitCsicska's Avatar
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    I have deliberated my ideas about his Talents:
    I still think that the 4th option would be the best for nerf Fusillade. This was one of his best Talent before his projectile speed buff too, but this buff increased this talent the most: It's so easier to hit a direct rocket with a faster one. The 30% dmg bonus could also kill the supporters by 2 shots, but this gives them the chanse to change it (dont be 2 shot targets) by buy Blast shield. So they also will have a chanses. Anyway blast shield is worst then Haven the most times, this change could buff this item's utility too. The bonus for Salvo is just too much, makes this skill much better too than its talent: Reign of Terror.
    This latter Talent is just weak now, you can also check this in stats: This has lower win rate then the others and much less used then the Fusillade, because palyers feel the difference. I propose that increase its dmg bonus from 10% to 30% and reset its self damage.
    The 2 Talents with the same 30% dmg bonus could be very simmetric the the latter could be useful against flank attacks, what could be very important: Drogoz is the easiest counterable dmg dealer by flanks. This self dmg reset could be useful in other situations too: he could kill from close distance, teach enemies to fear him in close range too, to keep them in Terror, what is this talent's end goal. Salvo is less often activated then the successfuly direct shots, so RoT need min equal bonus, and some others too (activates instantly and no self dmg) to compensate.
    Last edited by KicsitCsicska; 06-09-2018 at 05:49 AM.

  7. #27
    Banned Esquire Kerablis's Avatar
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    Ive voted 8 but drogoz has so much damage its ridiculous. Nerf his base attacks to 720 fussilade to 25%. Even bad player doesnt have trouble aiming and kills flanks, supports, damagers in two shots. Meanwhile willo has 500 dmg can fly above battle field only with her ultimate and that flying is inferior to one that drogoz has. Yes I hate drogoz cause there are plenty of reasons to hate him mainly one: Too Much Damage and that damage is aoe.

  8. #28
    Beta Player Marquess Sarenzed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerablis View Post
    Ive voted 8 but drogoz has so much damage its ridiculous. Nerf his base attacks to 720 fussilade to 25%. Even bad player doesnt have trouble aiming and kills flanks, supports, damagers in two shots. Meanwhile willo has 500 dmg can fly above battle field only with her ultimate and that flying is inferior to one that drogoz has. Yes I hate drogoz cause there are plenty of reasons to hate him mainly one: Too Much Damage and that damage is aoe.
    Wow, you have played a total of... well.... 0h 0min of drogoz.
    You can never say anything about a champion you have never even played, a champion you don't even own.

    You don't even own all champions, you have merely 84h in this game.


    So to give you a brief overview about this issue:
    Willo is heavily outclassed right now. Never nerf anything because it's stronger than willo.
    Drogoz is fine. Just fusillade isn't. The only way he can ever be OP is against noobs who can neither hit shit on an airborne target nor look up.
    Yes, drogoz has great burst dps, but even though thrust can be buffed a lot with loadout cards, he has the lowest base movement speed in the game. He has a big hitbox, isn't very mobile and has no way to sustain himself. And cuz he has still one of the slowest projectile speeds in the game and is a blaster only pros might be able to hit any airborne target with drogoz.

    He's great against tanks, decent against many champions but shit against any champion with great range or the ability to fly. He's finally viable again.

    Reducing his dmg to 720 will just kill him. It's just a pathetic suggestion.


    Yes, drogoz has a lot of damage. But there are defenitely champions with higher damage, even though they don't have higher burst damage. But almost all DDs can deal their damage much more consistently than drogoz. It's impossible to hit every single shot with drogoz since his projectile speed is still really slow, but with champions like cassie, sha lin, lian or with snipers it's actually possible.
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  9. #29
    Banned Esquire Kerablis's Avatar
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    Oh thank you for reply!!
    How kind of you!! Isnt your opinion about drogoz quite biased ?? You are drogoz main.

    Seriously why on your poll arent there some decent nerf options for drogoz ?? Why its like 5% or 10% nerf on fusillade and some others.

    Just looking at his numbers makes me hate this game. And ive played a lot of matches vs drogoz and isnt hard to see how lowskilled can you be to score lots of kills.
    His attacks dont fall off from range, hit boxes on rockets are huge. Why you complain about movement speed when its like 10, 25 points diffrence from other champs?? Its not that much especially when you notice that most of champs CANT FLY IN THE AIR!
    84h isnt problem if I had like 5 hours when ive berely started game this could be an issue. I dont plan on buying champions pack.
    Here are some links just look and compare even if you asked person who didnt play this game based only on basic attack stats I wonder which champ they would consider stronger even much stronger.

    You can tell alot from sheer stats...

    https://paladins.gamepedia.com/Drogoz
    https://paladins.gamepedia.com/Willo
    https://paladins.gamepedia.com/Cassie

    Drogoz 850!!! per 0.85 sec doesnt have falloff
    still can be increased more by fusillade

    Willo 500 per 0.75 sec has falloff
    Willo blast flower takes time to increase damge and still damage is not on the same level as drogoz

    Even Cassie that people in this forum think is op (I agree with that opinion) deals 680 dmg per 0.75
    Her projectiles are faster but she cant annihilate enemy teams (when they missposition) cause only aoe dmg in her arsenal is blast shot ... that deals 450 dmg... Cassie OP-ness problem is delay between auto attacks and skills if they fix it blast dmg wont be impresive at all.


    I would not bother post about ballance if champ X was slightly stronger than champ Y
    Just drogoz (and some other champs some nasty undying champs and I am not thinking about tanks) have such insane traits its not fun to play against them. 2 - 3 shots and u die why other champs have to keep attacking and attacking and berely have any strong points. I forgot to mention drogoz instakill ult. Shouldnt that take some power from him?? Also why he has 2400hp ??
    He should be lighter so he can fly more easily so -200hp would be nice too. That os simply a nerf that makes him more like other champions it wont make useless oh no that would be a tragedy. I dont want to nerf his hp by 1147 points so other champs would have fighting chance with him when there are equaly skilled opponents fighting.

    Btw why arent you grand master if you know so well what drogoz ballance changes needs?? Or maybe you are simply quite biased towards him and dont want your op champion nerfed too hard?
    Last edited by Kerablis; 06-11-2018 at 01:13 PM.

  10. #30
    Beta Player Marquess Sarenzed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerablis View Post
    Oh thank you for reply!!
    How kind of you!! Isnt your opinion about drogoz quite biased ?? You are drogoz main.
    Yes, I am a Drogoz main.
    That's why I know him a lot better than you and know much better how he can be balanced, what his strengths are and what his weaknesses are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerablis View Post
    Seriously why on your poll arent there some decent nerf options for drogoz ?? Why its like 5% or 10% nerf on fusillade and some others.
    This thread was never about nerfing drogoz, just about bringing fusillade in line with his other legendaries.
    So you not only have no idea about drogoz, you also can't read.

    Also 5% or 10% is a lot. As already explained it changes tons of interactions, regarding the TTK of squishies and levels of blast shields.

    So you have no idea about drogoz, you can't really read and you have no idea about balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerablis View Post
    Just looking at his numbers makes me hate this game. And ive played a lot of matches vs drogoz and isnt hard to see how lowskilled can you be to score lots of kills.
    His attacks dont fall off from range, hit boxes on rockets are huge. Why you complain about movement speed when its like 10, 25 points diffrence from other champs?? Its not that much especially when you notice that most of champs CANT FLY IN THE AIR!
    84h isnt problem if I had like 5 hours when ive berely started game this could be an issue. I dont plan on buying champions pack.
    Here are some links just look and compare even if you asked person who didnt play this game based only on basic attack stats I wonder which champ they would consider stronger even much stronger.
    Theoretical numbers don't mean anything. Only the practical numbers that you get in a game are meaningful. If you hate a champion just cuz of the numbers you're just making a huge mistake.

    Also movement speed is quite important. It might not seem like much, but it's really impactful. Due to the low movement speed it becomes almost impossible to run away from anyone. It also becomes really hard to juke attacks.
    Yes, he can fly. But unless you're a shitty noob with potato aim it doesn't matter. The only champions that have problems with airborne targets are blasters: Drogoz, pip, bk, evie, willo. Pip and willo have pretty fast projectile speed so you just need a bit more skill to hit drogoz, but it's still quite easy. BK can detonate his projectiles mid-air, it's even easier to hit drogoz with bk. Evie can blink close in order to get good shots, and her projectile speed is decent, too. The only champion in the entire game that is really bad against airborne champions is drogoz himself.

    All other champions just can hit drogoz super easily while flying since he can't survive more than a few seconds without cover. And since he's so slow, even while flying, he's a really easy target for all hitscan champions and everyone with decent projectile speed. Flying basically just allows you to get to a high ground or take a better angle for your attack for a few seconds. It doesn't help your survivability (unless playing against blasters), it actually hurts it when you're doing it where people can shoot you easily.

    This "He can fly" thing is a typical noob argument. It doesn't mean anything. It's just the desparation of people who have potato aim and can't look up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kerablis View Post
    You can tell alot from sheer stats...

    https://paladins.gamepedia.com/Drogoz
    https://paladins.gamepedia.com/Willo
    https://paladins.gamepedia.com/Cassie

    Drogoz 850!!! per 0.85 sec doesnt have falloff
    still can be increased more by fusillade

    Willo 500 per 0.75 sec has falloff
    Willo blast flower takes time to increase damge and still damage is not on the same level as drogoz

    Even Cassie that people in this forum think is op (I agree with that opinion) deals 680 dmg per 0.75
    Her projectiles are faster but she cant annihilate enemy teams (when they missposition) cause only aoe dmg in her arsenal is blast shot ... that deals 450 dmg... Cassie OP-ness problem is delay between auto attacks and skills if they fix it blast dmg wont be impresive at all.
    This is the proof that you don't know a lot about the game.

    Just comparing DPS means nothing:

    There is something called "projectile speed".
    Willo's and especially Cassie's projectile speed is a lot better than drogoz' projectile speed, even after his recent buff.
    Just the potential DPS is no reason for a nerf. All that matters is the damage that can be applied consistently.
    Drogoz can only deal consistent damage on short ranged but doesn't have enough sustain or mobility to be played as a flank. You're helpless against every other hitscan DD / DD with fast projectiles on long ranges since they can easily dodge your rockets, no matter how skilled you are.

    Then there is something called "mobility". Willo is more mobile than drogoz since she has a faster movement speed and flutter is much more versatile than thrust. Cassie doesn't have vertical mobility, but with her low CD dodge roll she's also more mobile that drogoz and also has a slower base movement speed. Drogoz is as fast as an average tank. He's the second slowest champion in the entire game alongside some tanks like nando.

    Then there is something called "sustainability". Drogoz doesn't have a lot of sustain. Big hitbox compared to willo and cassie, easy head hitbox, slow. If he wants to fly he's basically begging for being killed in a matter of seconds by any ranged DD.


    The problem with cassie isn't the time between blast shot and regular shots, it's that she can apply this burst really consistently. A great cassie player will rarely ever miss, even on long range.
    As already said, willo is bad so it makes no sense to compare drogoz to her. But even willo can deal the damage she has more consistently than drogoz since she has a bigger AoE and faster projectile speed.
    Also willo has much more utility in her kit with dead zone against heals and seedling for area denial. She has also more sustainability and mobility in her loadout cards with movement speed and an HP card that can get her 2450 HP.

    These are totally different champions. Calling drogoz OP just because he's better in one useless comparison (theoretical dps on paper, not practical dps) just shows your lack of knowledge about the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerablis View Post
    I would not bother post about ballance if champ X was slightly stronger than champ Y
    Just drogoz (and some other champs some nasty undying champs and I am not thinking about tanks) have such insane traits its not fun to play against them. 2 - 3 shots and u die why other champs have to keep attacking and attacking and berely have any strong points. I forgot to mention drogoz instakill ult. Shouldnt that take some power from him?? Also why he has 2400hp ??
    He should be lighter so he can fly more easily so -200hp would be nice too. That os simply a nerf that makes him more like other champions it wont make useless oh no that would be a tragedy. I dont want to nerf his hp by 1147 points so other champs would have fighting chance with him when there are equaly skilled opponents fighting.
    He has 2400 HP because he has no other way of sustain and has to be close and agressive in order to deal more damage than a grover on close range. Without 2400 HP he would be really bad.
    Also the number of shots doesn't matter, only the time. Drogoz needs 3 shots to kill a squishy, that's about 2 seconds. Andro can do it 1.5. Snipers in 2 from any range with no way to dodge it. BK deals the same damage as drogoz, even more consistently. Yet you don't complain about any of these. Drogoz is far from undying. With the right champion he just gets hard countered without any way to fight back. And it's not like one champion, it's rather like 10 and you'll have one on the enemy team every single match. If Drogoz isn't dying it's due to a crap DD or flank not doing his job properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerablis View Post
    Btw why arent you grand master if you know so well what drogoz ballance changes needs?? Or maybe you are simply quite biased towards him and dont want your op champion nerfed too hard?
    Well, I don't need to be grandmaster to find out that you have no idea what you're talking about and that you're just a toxic noob crying for a nerf cuz you can't aim.
    You don't need to be grandmaster to say something reasonable about balance.
    But you can never judge a champion you don't even play a lot, let alone own.

    When I started playing paladins as a noob, even champion on the enemy would run against me felt OP. Then I would buy that champion and get stomped, realizing that it wasn't the champion that was OP, it was just that the enemy player was better and I was shit. The only champion that ever turned out to be OP for me really soon was BK, and he got some nerfs since then.

    Drogoz has been bottom tier for the last few patches. With the recent buff he finally became playable against decent players again. Yes, fusillade needs a nerf, that's why we're here. But Drogoz himself doesn't for sure. He's not top tier unless you can run him with a coordinated team that helps you deal with your counters.


    Yes, I'm surely a bit biased. I don't want drogoz to be nerfed to bottom, I want him to remain a viable pick.
    But since I am a Drogoz main a know much more about him than someone who has never played him before. You can never argue about a champion you don't play, but you can argue about your main.

    Since you never played drogoz, only against him, you're probably much more biased against him than I will ever be biased towards him.
    PLEASE FIX YOUR GAME

    Bugs have feelings, too! They don't like to be ignored! So pay attention to them, please.

    BALANCE CONSOLE AND PC SEPARATELY

    THE ABILITY TO READ IS INCREDIBLY HELPFUL. CONSIDER TO READ A POST BEFORE YOU GIVE DUMB REPLIES.

    We're having a discussion. That doesn't work like ranting and shouting out bias without giving any kind of reason or detail.

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