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Thread: Buff for Ying ?

  1. #11
    Banned Sovereign Prince xPurplexx's Avatar
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    I think she needs her most recent nerf reverted and a buff to Lifelike would be nice, but that's all I think.

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    Well, repeating is also way of learning things, so yeah, Ying needs at the very least two things, that she lacks for now:

    1) Reliable Dim link, wich was neglected by the OB 62 nerf. The only one solution is to reduce the internal restriction between each swap back to 0.1 second. With 0.5, by playing with Rewind Time card You lose 1.5 second out of a maximum 6.4 seconds duration of the Dim Link just to swap three times to recreate 2 illusions and return to the innitial location. This delay might be crucial for all 3 reasons for using Dim Link in the first place: 1) with 0.5 delay between swaps You can be easily destroyed by a spray damage, like Victor's, burst damage (snipers), or simply flanked, because sitting .5 second on the place, unable to escape enemy's fire is crucial, especialy if You are attacked by Lex, who will LMB You to death in a blink of an eye. 2) With 0.5 delay You often might not recreate illusions fast enough to give Your frontline just a bit more healing he desperatly needs to stay alive and absorb the upcoming damage. 3) With maximum duration for Dim Link You have 6.4 seconds, and let's imagine You are pla-Ying with Resonance Legendary. Before the nerf kicked in, You could make the following sequence:
    Illusion, Illusion, Shatter, (Dim Link 3 times, Shatter) up to 3 more times, and maybe even recreate one or both illusion, if You capitalize Your time at all humanly possible efficiency. Let us talk about scenario, when You and You only innitiating the Shatter part, not where opponents concentrate all their fire to trigger Resonance and acuire 500 health damage slap in the face. If You using Shatter, Illusions do not explode instantly, smoothly, just outright or when makes a contact with the enemy. They explode after about 1,5 second (don't qoute Me on that, I have no data on this particular subject, and only rely on sences and expirience), but still, we have math, and can figure out, that if before OB62 with maxed out Dim Link duration we could dish out 4k damage (3k during Dim Link and 1k from the innitiate Shatter, before Dim Link trigger), so that it means, that we could waste 0.9 second to make 9 swaps (0.1 delay between each), and Shatter 3 times, remained with 6.4 - 0.9 = 5.5 seconds duration, wich means, that if we divide 5.5 by 3, we get ourselves 5.5 : 3 = 1.8 second - the time required to perform each Shatter.
    Now, with Dim Link nerf occured, we waste 1.5 seconds for 3 swaps, and our maximum duration on DL is still 6.4, and we spent 3 seconds for each Shatter after Dim Link is triggered, wich leads us to 3k maximum potential damage during 8 seconds (6.4 + around 1.5 of the innitiate Shatter performance, wich equals 7.9, roughly 8 seconds) of time spent on all process between the innitial Shatter and ending the combo. Wich means, that we have 3 thousand damage dished out after 7.9 seconds-lenght performance. And even less, because first of all, we need to CREATE the innitial Illusions, wich require 5 more seconds, so we have 3k damage in 13 seconds performance, and some more from shooting between Illusions landing. You know, what is this? It's disgusting, because one single Seris will consume all of this damage even BEFORE You pull it off, because she heals for 2k each 6 seconds, and if she started to heal right after the first Shatter, she will heal for 2k in a matter of a 2 seconds, and then for another 2k after 4 seconds cooldown. Dealing 3k damage during that much time is MISERABLE, if have in mind, that not only Your damage will be absorbed and the target of Your aggresion probably will stay alive at the very least, but that during performing all this madeness for 3k damage You also sacrifice the healing potential, wich is 5 ticks for 350 x 2 = 700 x 5 = 3500 healing, wich is somewhat the same amount, that Seris dish out in the same amount of time, so, as long as Seris stay hell knows how far away with her healing range, out of danger, You have NO REASON to even try, because odds are, You WON'T kill enemy frontline, or not even injure him at the amount of HP, that is significant to lose during 8 seconds, and in the same time, You are abandoning Your own frontline without Your heals, wich probably means his, and shortly after, YOURS death, because this combo is one-way ticket, there is no returning point, because after all efforts You might be left with ONE Illusion after You are finished the combo, and if You are not left well-alone, or do not have ultimate in charge, You WILL meet Your end, because You will have nothing left with, but one Illusion with 350 heals per tick, and NO WAY IN HELL to both withstand any more pressure or apply some to enemy Yourself.

    2) Somewhat to do with Lifelike, if not with her heals in general, because for now Lifelike legendary is a trap, wich can pay off in numbers of healing per time, but in one and only condition - if You have 2 people in a range of illusion to heal, and if all 3 of You, healer and healed people, have actual TIME to be healed by the frequency of 245 hp per tick, wich leads to 490 health per tick for one person from two illusions (without rejuvenate), wich for two person healed simultaneously equals 490 x 2 = 980 health per tick (or less, if healing frequency is one tick each 1.2 seconds and not 1 second). But the thing with that is, that this math is only good in a vacuum. Most case scenario You will have Your team spread out, so that You won't heal 2 people simultaniously with one Illusion, wich means, that You will give away only 245 heals per tick, not the potential 490 or 980 from both illusions. And spreading Your healing is good ONLY if upcoming damage is ALSO spreaded between healed teammates. But somewhat skilled foes WILL focus their fire on ONE target to make it so that they would fight 5 vs 4 asap, so most case scenario Lifelike will end up NOT BENEFITING You and Your team, wich is not okay. And that is shocking, that Hi-Rez totaly ignored Lifelike, not even concidred it worth to be buffed, not even mention that they considered Dim Link needed to be nerfed. If You would want to solve Resonance spamm "problem", You might've consider reducing Shatter damage, to, I dunno, 400 damage per explosion, leading to 3200 damage in 8 second performance of described combo, wich would make much more sence if You consider her damage potential too high, because now it STILL hurted her mobility AND healing potential more than damage output.
    But it seems, that nobody in Hi-Rez thought deeply about all described matter, and someone just hates Ying and all player base part, wich plays her.
    Last edited by Ezergile; 11-09-2017 at 05:25 AM.

  3. #13
    Member King Valkure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezergile View Post
    1) Reliable Dim link, wich was neglected by the OB 62 nerf. The only one solution is to reduce the internal restriction between each swap back to 0.1 second.
    Do you know what? Yesterday I experimented some new loadout, trying to obtain a decent "something" by the nerf (but, no, whatever you may do, you can't even use dim link and Rewind to recreate a new set of clones, since you barely can return to the main position, before it expires... and yes, in the meanwhile you are a sitting duck for enemy fire) and I've discovered that you can actually LMB even before the 0.5 sec. So, you can't do anything useful for any different play style than Focusing Lens.
    Read: since Bomb Ying was the only way to get rid of flankers, they have nerfed JUST THAT. So, Lifelike has been trash since months. Resonance has been nerfed 2 times (one with the ulti, now with dim link is completely useless). Focusing Lens received 2 dmg buff.

    What about "each Legendary allows a different play style", if all play styles except the one THEY like (and it's not annoying for flankers) are nerfed to the ground?

    PS: Ezergile, I would add to your great post only one thing. The dim link cooldown is huge, if you don't wast 4 cards to lower it (and you usually don't, since you use those cards to increase its duration), so your whole combo can be performed 1) every x time, because you have to place clones, 2) every y time, because clones can be destroyed, 3) every z time, when enemy are near, 4) every w time because often you just need clones alive to heal and 5) every k time because you are out of cooldown (and maybe you've used dim link to escape, even if it's rare).
    So,
    x+y+z+w+k= a lot of time in between the combo
    And now, after waiting a whole min or two in order to shatter consistently, you even can't, because your dim link doesn't allow you.
    Last edited by Valkure; 11-09-2017 at 02:53 AM.
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    Revert the nerf. And see the Math. link

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkure View Post
    Do you know what? Yesterday I experimented some new loadout, trying to obtain a decent "something" by the nerf (but, no, whatever you may do, you can't even use dim link and Rewind to recreate a new set of clones, since you barely can return to the main position, before it expires... and yes, in the meanwhile you are a sitting duck for enemy fire) and I've discovered that you can actually LMB even before the 0.5 sec. So, you can't do anything useful for any different play style than Focusing Lens.
    Read: since Bomb Ying was the only way to get rid of flankers, they have nerfed JUST THAT. So, Lifelike has been trash since months. Resonance has been nerfed 2 times (one with the ulti, now with dim link is completely useless). Focusing Lens received 2 dmg buff.

    What about "each Legendary allows a different play style", if all play styles except the one THEY like (and it's not annoying for flankers) are nerfed to the ground?

    PS: Ezergile, I would add to your great post only one thing. The dim link cooldown is huge, if you don't wast 4 cards to lower it (and you usually don't, since you use those cards to increase its duration), so your whole combo can be performed 1) every x time, because you have to place clones, 2) every y time, because clones can be destroyed, 3) every z time, when enemy are near, 4) every w time because often you just need clones alive to heal and 5) every k time because you are out of cooldown (and maybe you've used dim link to escape, even if it's rare).
    So,
    x+y+z+w+k= a lot of time in between the combo
    And now, after waiting a whole min or two in order to shatter consistently, you even can't, because your dim link doesn't allow you.
    What can I tell about the Focusing Lens and the fact, that Ying can shoot during DL is that, if we took Cassie's Legendaries rework and Dodge Roll spamm decreased a bit, then it is safe to say, that those 2 tweaks, Ying and Cassie, were quite the FALSE MIRROR (tu-dum tum!)
    But seriously though, there was no need to this nerf, because FL legendary still was a decent option for matches against targets, that were mobile enough to counter Shatter (every character with vertical mobility or even cases for being able to run away horisontaly), and because it was already good and used against teams, filled with Drogoz, Ruckus, snipers (Sha Lin, Strix, Kinessa), and it always was nice poke-damage legendary against flankers, because with it Ying can kill, for example, Skye, in 3 shots instead of 4, so it is good already legendary and we did not needed DL nerf. I am not done with qualifying yet, but as a person, who spent more than 200 hours in casual, I can tell, that Ying hardly was a problem for all of My expirience ever, especialy sicne when I picked her in shooting range and spent 15 minutes to understand the principles by wich Dim Link works. Ying is easy to counter by quite a few ways, Focusing Lense included, so that nerfing Dim Link made no sence and was not needed nor desired. What was needed and desired, is Lifelike buff for it not to be a waste to spend 10000 Essence on it.

  5. #15
    Member King Valkure's Avatar
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    Oh, don't get me wrong. I am not saying it is good for FL, I am saying HiRez is clearly going for nerfing everything that is not FL play style. And this is even more annoying to me than directly delete Ying for the game.
    I don't want to be forced in playing a champion in a specific way, the plurality is what has kept me in this game. I would have joined OW months ago, if it wasn't for strategy and loadouts.
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    Revert the nerf. And see the Math. link

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    I feel like Ying has no place in the game right now. The healing got nerfed way too hard, the dmg is far from exceptional and she is generally very slow (which seems to be a bigger problem now than back in the day when she was a good healer).
    There is just no real reason to pick her up, which is a damn shame, especially since her shot got reworked (because it's really fun to shoot).

  7. #17
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    Revert all the nerfs to Ying like some have said. That has been my position since she first got nerfed, well mainly when they nerfed her health.

    I honestly do not know why they keep nerfing Ying.
    Ying wasn't kicked out of the meta she was nerfed out.
    Yet Hi-Rez keeps buffing Seris who was kicked out of the Meta.
    The nerfs to Ying don't even make sense. Stop It already.

    - Your resident Salty Ying Main

  8. #18
    Member King Valkure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiderumNocte View Post
    I honestly do not know why they keep nerfing Ying.
    From what I've understood, because on console low elo she's a beast. However, look at my red link in the signature. I hope they will buff her back soon!
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    Revert the nerf. And see the Math. link

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkure View Post
    From what I've understood, because on console low elo she's a beast. However, look at my red link in the signature. I hope they will buff her back soon!
    She was pretty stupid on console but that stems from Hi-Rez not wanting to balance platforms separately.
    Too expensive or some bullshit is what they said. Though honestly I feel they don't have to change everything just a few tweaks but I guess that's too much work.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiderumNocte View Post
    Too expensive or some bullshit is what they said. Though honestly I feel they don't have to change everything just a few tweaks but I guess that's too much work.
    Actually, if the program has been created with proper programming skills (like I assume, being them a professional society and not some random guy creating games in his garage), they just need to load a different parameter list.
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    Revert the nerf. And see the Math. link

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