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Thread: Community Balance Proposal

  1. #161
    Beta Player Baronet Yxanthymir_2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samercam View Post
    I never said Makoa's other abilities are bad. I simply said his hook is overpowered. When something is overpowered you do not need to provide compensation for making it normally powered. That is a simple concept. I don't know how else to explain it. Your proposal to increase his hook cooldown but decrease other cooldowns misses the point of hook being overpowered but the rest of his kit being completely reasonable and balanced like every other front liner in the game. When one think is not in line, you don't have to readjust the rest, just that one thing.

    As for your Torvald game, that is one game. Your gameplay is not, and never will be indicative of overall champion balance because of the laws of statistics. Your experience in game is not indicative of the communities, etc etc. Makoa has been the best champion (or fighting for it) since he existed. Paladins in general is being balanced for eSports play with casual gaming as a secondary thought (hence the huge recent flank buffs). To think that your game in casual is remotely indicative of high level play is ridiculous.

    If you think any other champions deserve to be reigned in, then Makoa needs it too. HiRez has been nerfing him slowly, which has been greatly appreciated by all, but many think there is still a little more to be done. However to keep him tanky enough for the frontline, the best option (in my opinion at least) is to increase the cooldown of his hook and keep the rest of him as is. This would make me feel like he is on par with every other frontline instead of a head above. (Another option, of course, would be to remove his hook cooldown card and replace it with something else.)
    Except it was not just one game, all my games with Torvald are exactly like this game. I could post them here if you want proof. Almost always the best damage, always more kills than deaths since level 1 with him even when I lose like the game before. I am not saying to look in the statistics of just one game, but that game represented exactly what I am saying and what you are complaining. If the hook is the problem, and I am not saying it is, lowering the cooldown of the hook and increasing the cooldown of other ability would solve the problem.

    Torvald is way better than Makoa and nobody asks for a Torvald nerf. You want more proof look at this chart.

    https://www.thebettermeta.com/charts...n_performance/
    "Don't ask for a tank, be the tank."

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  2. #162
    Beta Player Count Samercam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yxanthymir_2 View Post
    Except it was not just one game, all my games with Torvald are exactly like this game. I could post them here if you want proof. Almost always the best damage, always more kills than deaths since level 1 with him even when I lose like the game before. I am not saying to look in the statistics of just one game, but that game represented exactly what I am saying and what you are complaining. If the hook is the problem, and I am not saying it is, lowering the cooldown of the hook and increasing the cooldown of other ability would solve the problem.

    Torvald is way better than Makoa and nobody asks for a Torvald nerf. You want more proof look at this chart.

    https://www.thebettermeta.com/charts...n_performance/
    Again, personal experience is just not a valid case. Apparently you don't believe in statistics.

    When Maeve was nerfed to do less damage, they didn't give her a third jump to compensate. Sometimes you just need to do a straight up nerf with no compensation to bring people into balance.

    Another classic misuse of charts. Firstly, that chart only uses competitive statistics, and you are clearly basing your argument on your casual statistics. So anything you're trying to argue and back up with your experience is completely irrelevant when using these charts. Secondly, Makoa is a higher skill champion than Torvald, so of course his stats are lower than Torv's. If you look at Androxous vs Zhin you will see Zhin has a notably higher winrate. That said Zhin is probably one of the worse flanks in the game, and it is simply his strength in lower Elos (where he actually gets played much more often) that he performs well because people are worse at playing around his abilities. Androxous is by far the better flanker and anyone will tell you that. You can also look at Evie having one of the worst overall performances in the game despite being one of the best flankers in higher Elo and the pro scene. The thing is, to be effective on Evie you need to be incredibly mechanically skilled, something other champions do not need in the same capacity. Because of this, her winrate suffers. The same applies to Kinessa, and other champions.

    The graph you would really want to use for your point is here:
    https://www.thebettermeta.com/charts...rate_by_skill/
    Here you can see Torv only performs marginally better than Makoa in competitive.

    But even that is not the best graph we can look at:
    https://www.thebettermeta.com/charts...ting_overview/
    This graph shows that Torvald out performs Makoa in mid-high Elos, but at the highest Elo Makoa gets the edge again, and quite a notable one. My guess as to why this is, is that people are actually hitting their hooks and their team is actually following up.

    Another way to look at why Makoa is more effective than Torv is that all his abilities except his shell shield are pretty much non-counterable. You cannot reduce the effectiveness of the hook much, you cannot make shell spin any less quick. You can't stop him from ulting and becoming a massive tank that chews up everything in his path. However, Torvald gets countered fairly handily by resilience + wrecker which most teams fighting a Torv will invest in. Smart itemization makes Torv more of a bullet sponge/shield giver in the late game, whereas Makoa only gets better as his hooks confirm kills more effciently with higher cauterize levels and wrecker on your damage classes.

    I am not going to pursue this discussion further, however, because I don't think you're getting my point, and I fundamentally disagree with yours.
    Grover isn't so great? Are you kidding me? When was the last time you saw a support with such high mobility and damage? Grover puts the game on another level, and we will be blessed if we ever see a champion as good as him. Jenos gets top healing. Mal Damba impacts teamfights. Grover breaks the rules. You can keep your statistics. I prefer the magic.

    It had to be said.

  3. #163
    Beta Player Emperor Valkure's Avatar
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    Please, guys, stop writing in this thread.
    Today I am going to create a "consolidated" version of it, in order to send it to Devs. So, please, stop adding new suggestions, till we get an answer, in order not to mess up with the feedback.
    Thanks for your precious help. Let's see if all these efforts will pay off.

    -- STOP WRITING HERE --
    -- END OF CONSOLIDATED VERSION --
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  4. #164
    Beta Player Viscount Thales3002's Avatar
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    All ultimate legendaries should be reworked.

    They simply will never be viable, no matter how you buff them, because you pick a legendary to have an advantage throughout the match.

    Ultimates happen once every a few minutes, you don't simply spam them around, so there's very low benefit in using an ultimate legendary instead of a normal skill/weapon/armor one, that benefits you consistently and not only when ulting.

    Please, rework them.

  5. #165
    Beta Player Prince CatManDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thales3002 View Post
    All ultimate legendaries should be reworked.

    They simply will never be viable, no matter how you buff them, because you pick a legendary to have an advantage throughout the match.

    Ultimates happen once every a few minutes, you don't simply spam them around, so there's very low benefit in using an ultimate legendary instead of a normal skill/weapon/armor one, that benefits you consistently and not only when ulting.

    Please, rework them.
    Most ultimate legendary cards suck, however, Rally Here on Ash is actually pretty damn scary, considering you can get Morale Boost 4 pretty much, and can go invincible rather frequently, as well quickly being able to sway a point fight in your favor almost whenever you feel like it.
    Protect your supports please... They want support too!
    Support main/Pip main. Greatest healing: 230,070 | Current goal: 200,000 achieved! Take a look at it! Woohoo!

    Just a silly idea

    Support Pip guide here!

    Fix the Pip bugs! There are 40 of them, so can we fix them please?

  6. #166
    Beta Player Count Samercam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thales3002 View Post
    All ultimate legendaries should be reworked.

    They simply will never be viable, no matter how you buff them, because you pick a legendary to have an advantage throughout the match.

    Ultimates happen once every a few minutes, you don't simply spam them around, so there's very low benefit in using an ultimate legendary instead of a normal skill/weapon/armor one, that benefits you consistently and not only when ulting.

    Please, rework them.
    Zhin's ult legendary makes his ult incredibly effective. His kit is pretty okay as is and that card is good for a more passive playstyle.
    Grover isn't so great? Are you kidding me? When was the last time you saw a support with such high mobility and damage? Grover puts the game on another level, and we will be blessed if we ever see a champion as good as him. Jenos gets top healing. Mal Damba impacts teamfights. Grover breaks the rules. You can keep your statistics. I prefer the magic.

    It had to be said.

  7. #167
    Beta Player Emperor Valkure's Avatar
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    Guys, a serious question. What of the:

    Quote Originally Posted by Valkure View Post
    Please, guys, stop writing in this thread.
    Today I am going to create a "consolidated" version of it, in order to send it to Devs. So, please, stop adding new suggestions, till we get an answer, in order not to mess up with the feedback.
    Thanks for your precious help. Let's see if all these efforts will pay off.

    -- STOP WRITING HERE --
    -- END OF CONSOLIDATED VERSION --
    you have not understood? I thought bold red text sized 5 would help...

    Stop writing in this thread till Devs answer, we can't continue to change things while they are evaluating the consolidate version, this would only lead to a mess of the thread.
    I've finally found it!

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  8. #168
    Banned Grand Prince
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    Pm a mod to lock the thread, ezpz


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  9. #169
    Super Moderator Emperor Wallachia's Avatar
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    I'm going to lock this thread for the time being on Valure's request until the next step. In order to prevent it being forgotten I'm also going to stick the thread as well.
    *Disclaimer: I am a volunteer moderator. I work on best judgement and do not speak on behalf of Hi-Rez Studios.*

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  10. #170
    Super Moderator Emperor Wallachia's Avatar
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    Update: Hi-Rez has acknowledged they have received my message and saw the thread. I personally believe those changes will be implemented, as they qualified this thread as "very helpful and useful".

    Cheers.
    *Disclaimer: I am a volunteer moderator. I work on best judgement and do not speak on behalf of Hi-Rez Studios.*

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