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Thread: Zhin needs some tweaks (buffs and nerfs)

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    Zhin needs some tweaks (buffs and nerfs)

    Right now at OB58, Zhin is by far the most "survivable" flanker. Also, overall he requires less skill to play well than other flankers like Androxus/Evie.

    Do you think "he's balanced"? So my suggestion: find a friend who is decent with Zhin and then try do play against him in a 1vs1 custom game, using any champion you like (I suggest Lian). See how it goes...

    1) His main attack is 450+450+700 in 2 seconds, so 800 DPS - it seems an "OK" value. However, there is a big difference here: his projectiles hitboxes are huge, the size of a truck. You don't even need to aim very well to hit all his shots in close range. So, the first tweak: decrease the projectile hitbox or decrease his damage combo.

    2) He has 8 ammo capacity as default and it can increase using the deck - no other flank has a card that allows to increase the ammo. The second tweak: decrease the ammo capacity to 6, remove his card to increase ammo and increase a bit his reload speed (making him like Androxus/Evie).

    3) His counter ability has only 7s cooldown and last for 2 seconds, while Androxus reversal has freaking 16 seconds cooldown and last for 1.4s. The third tweak: increase his counter cooldown to at least 10 seconds - so people can not spam counter stance all the time.

    4) His billow ability has only 12s cooldown and last for 2.5s and still gets immunity, while Androxus' Nether step has 10s cooldown. Also his legendary allows him to heal 60% of his HP while he's completely immune to damage, while Evie's Ice block legendary heals 50% of her HP and, as we know, an easy target after using the Ice block. The fourth tweak: either increase his billow cooldown, or decrease his duration, or allow him to get some damage while using it.

    5) Whirl has only 7s cooldown and the hitbox is huge. The cooldown is OK but it could give less damage since the hitbox is huge.

    6) His Ult: the only ability that is underpowered. I think he should get at least CC imunity while using it and increase his damage to 2000.


    Thanks for reading.

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    Literally all of these nerfs will kill Zhin. Who cares if he can1v1 most Squishies? That's his job and that was the job of all flanks before they gutted them. Stop crying about a flank actually being able to flank as well as a tank ccan in this meta, please.
    How to counter Zhin: run away lol, or just play any tank.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sappinmahsentry View Post
    Literally all of these nerfs will kill Zhin. Who cares if he can1v1 most Squishies? That's his job and that was the job of all flanks before they gutted them. Stop crying about a flank actually being able to flank as well as a tank ccan in this meta, please.
    If by "kill Zhin" you mean "changing him to require more skill and punish for doing mistakes", you're right... it's going to kill him for bad players, something like Androxus/Evie are for them.

    And I read the forums and I already noticed that you like to play with Zhin and, therefore, you opinion is totally rigged towards "not nerfing him". However, I didn't read one single good argument that shows he doesn't need some tweaks.

    Do you know why Androxus is the flanker with the lowest win rate among the 50% less skilled players population, while Zhin is the flanker with the highest win rate in this same scenario?

    I'll mention only two reasons: Androxus requires a good aiming/tracking and Zhin doesn't, and Androxus has much higher cooldowns abilities than Zhin's, therefore, less margin for doing mistakes.

    Also, among the top 10% most skilled players (ie, 90% skill percentile), Zhin still has higher win rate than Androxus. And everyone (with unbiased opinion) can say that Zhin is much more easier to play than Androxus, and yet, Zhin is more effective than Androxus.

    See some numbers yourself: https://www.thebettermeta.com/charts...rate_by_skill/

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    None of your nerfs in this thread will increase his skillcap, they'll just narrow his item choices and make him worse for anyone playing him. Let's start from the top.

    1) His main attack doesn't need a damage nerf, his damage is pitiful. Wanna know why he has large projectile hitboxes? He's designed to be played like a melee character. His projectiles are easy to dodge at anything other than close range and again, they deal little damage. Making his projectiles smaller would do nothing but make him feel worse. I could see making his projectiles get smaller according to the range his projectiles travel. But again, they're very slow.


    2) Androxus has cards that makes him reload upon using his abilities, basically giving Andro full reloads on relatively short cooldowns. What was mentioned in the OP is a false equivalency cause the flanks you mentioned also deal miles more dps and have miles more mobility and range. Nerfing Zhin's ammo capacity would gimp him a lot, even if you increase his reload speed. This is because being able to reliably put down lots of fire down range is common behavior for characters who deal low damage. Having both low damage and a low ammo capacity is just counter-intuitive at best.

    3) Another false equivalency, Reversal has a card that shortens the cooldown every time androxus gets a hit with his primary fire, making Reversal literally there whenever you need it. Not to mention, it deals AT LEAST 100 more damage with his best legendary card. And most of the time, you'll get more than 1000 damage out of reversal because of how the brain reacts to things. Counter doesn't need to be touched unless you are using retaliation, it's just not powerful enough without the legendary to warrant a 10 second cooldown. Hell, I'd be for an 11 second cooldown on retaliation as long as you don't touch the base ability.

    4)
    Androxus can just about instantly refresh the cooldown of nether step just by hitting reversal. Not to mention, Nether Step travels MILES and has THREE charges. AND it's vertical mobility. Also, you DO know that billow lasts for 2 seconds or more, right? This gives you innumerable time to run away, reposition, or get healed. Increasing the cooldown, as I have said before with all of these changes, does nothing to increase his skill cap. It only serves to narrow his item choices. Whereas decreasing the duration would make his ability to escape almost worthless. And it would make it so that he may be OP in 1v1 duels. Last but not least, allowing him to be damaged while in billow would completely ruin the ability as an escape, cause people will simply be able to shoot Zhin dead. Again, none of these changes raise his skillcap in any way other than making it so that an outstanding player would only be able to do as well as an average androxus when playing as Zhin.

    5) Nerfing whirl, I've never seen anyone say this needs a nerf. Lowering its damage would make zhin need yet another attack to kill an enemy, that's 0.5 more seconds to kill, which would of course do nothing to increase his skill cap and only serve to make him worse at all skill levels.

    6) Zhin already deals 2k damage with his ult. Shows how much you know about Zhin. CC immunity is the only good suggestion you've shown here.

    Also I've seen good players mention that there is a big gap from bad Zhins and good Zhins in skill. Just something for your mind to think about.

    Anyway, that's all of my reasons why your nerf suggestions are simply bad. Nerfing a character's DPS, cooldowns, or escape potential doesn't increase their skillcap, it just makes the champion worse. You say Andro has long cooldowns, but that's simply untrue if you look at his cards. All in all, I think that zhin doesn't need to be touched. And I'll tell you the simple reason he only gets better as skill increases and he has a high Winrate. That's because he has a low skill floor and a high skill ceiling, same as Torvald. Don't use those stats to tell people what's good or not, as it's simply debunked by common sense. Newbies don't know how to counter Zhin or Torvald, but higher level players know the ins and outs of both champions and use them to a great extent. I hope you take this wall of text into consideration like I took yours. Thank you for your time.
    Last edited by Sappinmahsentry; 09-09-2017 at 09:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouNoobPegaLeve View Post
    1) His main attack is 450+450+700 in 2 seconds, so 800 DPS - it seems an "OK" value. However, there is a big difference here: his projectiles hitboxes are huge, the size of a truck. You don't even need to aim very well to hit all his shots in close range. So, the first tweak: decrease the projectile hitbox or decrease his damage combo.
    That's not a lot of damage at all for a class that's all about burst damage.
    Additionally, Zhin suffers from 2 huge, glaring weaknesses:

    * Zhin literally has no way of hitting a distant target. Sure, other Flanks have slowly moving projectiles or drop-off damage to the point that they only do 1 damage at long range, but at least it's something. Enough to knock enemies off their horse, enough to constantly apply Cauterize.
    Zhin is literally fucked against targets that aren't in range and cannot even tickle them.

    * Zhin's projectiles immediately disappear upon hitting a target. You talk like the huge projectile hitboxes are what makes Zhin overpowered - and to an extent I suppose it's kinda helpful in duels - but as soon as your target retreats to his/her teammates you're done. Other enemies will accidentally stand in the way and block your attacks making Whirl the only ability that can still harm your target at this point.


    Quote Originally Posted by SouNoobPegaLeve View Post
    2) He has 8 ammo capacity as default and it can increase using the deck - no other flank has a card that allows to increase the ammo. The second tweak: decrease the ammo capacity to 6, remove his card to increase ammo and increase a bit his reload speed (making him like Androxus/Evie).
    Zhin has an ammo count of 9, not 8. At this point it's already painfully obvious you've never even played Zhin and this entire thread is a "I can't beat Zhin so NERF him!" topic in disguise.


    Quote Originally Posted by SouNoobPegaLeve View Post
    3) His counter ability has only 7s cooldown and last for 2 seconds, while Androxus reversal has freaking 16 seconds cooldown and last for 1.4s. The third tweak: increase his counter cooldown to at least 10 seconds - so people can not spam counter stance all the time.
    Counter Stance isn't spammable - not by a long shot. It's either immediately taken down by 1 misfired shot from Viktor/Tyra/Ruckus/whatever or Zhin is using Retaliation at which point you're complaining about Zhin when you should be complaining about a legendary card.

    Of course Androxus has a longer cooldown - Reversal has a built-in Retaliation effect, can fire its projectile a really long distance and has a far higher base damage than Zhin's counter if used properly (or if Androxus is simply using Godslayer).


    Quote Originally Posted by SouNoobPegaLeve View Post
    4) His billow ability has only 12s cooldown and last for 2.5s and still gets immunity, while Androxus' Nether step has 10s cooldown. Also his legendary allows him to heal 60% of his HP while he's completely immune to damage, while Evie's Ice block legendary heals 50% of her HP and, as we know, an easy target after using the Ice block. The fourth tweak: either increase his billow cooldown, or decrease his duration, or allow him to get some damage while using it.
    Okay so wait, now you're complaining about theoratical Zhin players that somehow managed to select both Smolder and Retaliation?
    Damn dude, I totally agree! Fernando using Formidable, Scorch and Aegis at the same time is super overpowered! Nerf now!

    First you complain about Zhin's counter which is honestly quite shit without Retaliation and now you complain about the self-heal during Smolder.
    It's one or the other. Zhin is a character whose legendary cards are so divided that players will always struggle with the lack of the effects from whichever 2 legendary cards they didn't pick.
    If Zhin uses Smolder then Counter Stance becomes absolutely useless apart from blocking the occasional lucky ultimate. If Zhin picks Retaliation then Billow turns into nothing but an overrated stall tactic to use whenever Counter Stance is on cooldown but you're getting shot at.

    No matter which legendary card you pick with Zhin, at least one of his abilities will always be shit.


    Quote Originally Posted by SouNoobPegaLeve View Post
    6) His Ult: the only ability that is underpowered. I think he should get at least CC imunity while using it and increase his damage to 2000.
    Zhin already does 2k damage with his ult. Again - did you even bother to play a few matches with Zhin before coming here?

    But yeah, it's bad to the point that pressing E with Zhin is either a fancy way to kill himself or a ridiculously expensive way to gain some vertical mobility. At least buffing Zhin's ultimate is something we can agree on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rickvs64 View Post
    Zhin's counter which is honestly quite shit without Retaliation
    Just wanna correct you on this, the ability is simply DECENT without retaliation. Ever since they patched out the delay, i can use it offensively as I please to a really nice extent. However, it's useless vs enemies who can gain range quickly. Other than that, your post is spot on.
    How to counter Zhin: run away lol, or just play any tank.

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    It's pretty clear to me that he never played Zhin and is probably just salty because got his ass beaten by a good Zhin player when he says Zhin has 8 ammo and want to "buff" his ultimate to deal 2000 damage.

    The only good thing in this thread is adding CC immunity to his ult, I never really understood why he doesn't have it yet.

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    The only problem with Zhin is his retaliation legendary. It allow him to counter for so long that he can pull of a sequence of counter, billow, counter, whirl, attack, counter. 90% of Zhins I fight always max out chronos to abuse this combo. Zhin becomes unstoppable if he has his team around. You will always die before he can be killed.

    Retaliation needs to be reworked so that counter now deals damage relative to the target's hp. Something like 35-50% of a target's hp. This makes counter strong and gives Zhin a good burst but it also allows counter to be disabled by a single attack like normal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_black_of_sin View Post
    The only problem with Zhin is his retaliation legendary. It allow him to counter for so long that he can pull of a sequence of counter, billow, counter, whirl, attack, counter. 90% of Zhins I fight always max out chronos to abuse this combo. Zhin becomes unstoppable if he has his team around. You will always die before he can be killed.

    Retaliation needs to be reworked so that counter now deals damage relative to the target's hp. Something like 35-50% of a target's hp. This makes counter strong and gives Zhin a good burst but it also allows counter to be disabled by a single attack like normal.
    All you have to do is to not shoot his counter. It's not that hard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouNoobPegaLeve View Post
    1) His main attack is 450+450+700 in 2 seconds, so 800 DPS - it seems an "OK" value. However, there is a big difference here: his projectiles hitboxes are huge, the size of a truck. You don't even need to aim very well to hit all his shots in close range. So, the first tweak: decrease the projectile hitbox or decrease his damage combo.
    Evie's projectiles are quite big and deal 900 damage.

    Maeve's knifes hitboxes are bigger than her knifes and deal 450 per knife with a fire rate of 0.5 seconds, so hitting all knifes makes a grand total of 1800 dps.

    I think this would automatically make him worse than Evie and Maeve, since their projectiles go further and deal more damage per second.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouNoobPegaLeve View Post
    2) He has 8 ammo capacity as default and it can increase using the deck - no other flank has a card that allows to increase the ammo. The second tweak: decrease the ammo capacity to 6, remove his card to increase ammo and increase a bit his reload speed (making him like Androxus/Evie).
    Wrong, he has 9 ammo. It's clear that you are not good at fighting against good Zhin's and so want him to be nerfed.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouNoobPegaLeve View Post
    3) His counter ability has only 7s cooldown and last for 2 seconds, while Androxus reversal has freaking 16 seconds cooldown and last for 1.4s. The third tweak: increase his counter cooldown to at least 10 seconds - so people can not spam counter stance all the time.
    3rd thing: So, what about Nando's fireballs? It has only 3 second cooldown. Or how about Sprint and Jenos' F, no cooldown.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouNoobPegaLeve View Post
    4) His billow ability has only 12s cooldown and last for 2.5s and still gets immunity, while Androxus' Nether step has 10s cooldown. Also his legendary allows him to heal 60% of his HP while he's completely immune to damage, while Evie's Ice block legendary heals 50% of her HP and, as we know, an easy target after using the Ice block. The fourth tweak: either increase his billow cooldown, or decrease his duration, or allow him to get some damage while using it..
    For you last suggestion for his Billow, I have this:
    Can you hit smoke? No? Well that's what Zhin is while in Billow, smoke is untargetable.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouNoobPegaLeve View Post
    5) Whirl has only 7s cooldown and the hitbox is huge. The cooldown is OK but it could give less damage since the hitbox is huge.
    Yeah, while we're at it, lets nerf his ability with the least amount of damage and therefore, the lowest cooldown.
    Jesus Christ, you're complaining about 400 damage here. only 400. It's becoming more clear that you want to nerf Zhin like Maeve's nerfs after she was introduced.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouNoobPegaLeve View Post
    6) His Ult: the only ability that is underpowered. I think he should get at least CC imunity while using it and increase his damage to 2000.
    Yeah, too bad it's already 2000. Just look at his abililties. Have you even played Zhin?



    Oh yeah, now I'm here, let's also give my comment about this comment:


    Quote Originally Posted by The_black_of_sin View Post
    The only problem with Zhin is his retaliation legendary. It allow him to counter for so long that he can pull of a sequence of counter, billow, counter, whirl, attack, counter. 90% of Zhins I fight always max out chronos to abuse this combo. Zhin becomes unstoppable if he has his team around. You will always die before he can be killed.
    1) Stop shooting.
    2) Wait until his Counter is finshed (So when the thing above his head goes away.)
    3) Shoot.
    4) Profit.

    Also it won't surprise me if you are a salty Viktor main.

    Quote Originally Posted by silvontavares View Post
    i play with zihn e totally deal with this ideia, in especial the hit box.
    And I can't read your damn comment.


    Last but not least: Your title is wrong, it's only one buff and all the other ones are nerfs.
    They are also f*cking stupid.
    Last edited by IvJo; 09-11-2017 at 02:11 PM.
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