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Thread: Thoughts on Zhin? [Survey]

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    Beta Player Esquire T0P4Z's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Thoughts on Zhin? [Survey]

    Link: https://goo.gl/forms/FJY8v5RFQ6Y24a6G3

    This is just a simple survey designed to gather data on how people feel about Zhin. Only part one has required sections; part two is all about specific feedback on cards, abilities and talents. It would be greatly appreciated if you filled this out, thank you.

    EDIT: The Survey has concluded. The results and analysis can be found here:
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

    Hope you all enjoy!
    Last edited by T0P4Z; 05-15-2018 at 10:06 PM. Reason: News

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    Beta Player Baron Piroxen's Avatar
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    Completed. Hope you post your results

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    Beta Player Emperor Valkure's Avatar
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    I think you should add another question about a general feeling. The problem of Zhin is not a specific skill, but the fact that his whole kit is good. He can do EVERYTHING, that's his problem. Whirl is not bad. If you couldn't get so many free kills with it. Billow is not bad. If you couldn't use it so often with the counter combo.
    And so on.
    I've finally found it!

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    #StopPlayingSupports
    Let them see how a game with shit-nerfed supports is.

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    And again i have to agree with Valkure! It's just frustrating to play against him... you have the first hit, he'll fight back, then billow (healing up), attack again, then block, then billow again - you just need two people to kill him. Otherwise the fight will take so much time that zhins teammates can come and support him

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrankSir1 View Post
    And again i have to agree with Valkure! It's just frustrating to play against him... you have the first hit, he'll fight back, then billow (healing up), attack again, then block, then billow again - you just need two people to kill him. Otherwise the fight will take so much time that zhins teammates can come and support him
    After Zhin uses billow you have 15 seconds to kill him before he can use it again. Counter lasts less than 3 seconds now. I don't know why people still struggle but nonetheless...

    You can't nerf him any further without making him a complete gimp. The only thing left to do is a complete rework of this champ.

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    Beta Player Esquire T0P4Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkure View Post
    I think you should add another question about a general feeling. The problem of Zhin is not a specific skill, but the fact that his whole kit is good. He can do EVERYTHING, that's his problem. Whirl is not bad. If you couldn't get so many free kills with it. Billow is not bad. If you couldn't use it so often with the counter combo.
    And so on.
    My bad for not including a section regarding the interplay of Zhin's abilities. However, what you can do is still reference other abilities in the "Why do you feel that of X?" and I'll take that into the consideration of that ability. Thanks for the input!

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    Beta Player Esquire T0P4Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MekaDeth View Post
    After Zhin uses billow you have 15 seconds to kill him before he can use it again. Counter lasts less than 3 seconds now. I don't know why people still struggle but nonetheless...

    You can't nerf him any further without making him a complete gimp. The only thing left to do is a complete rework of this champ.
    For Billow, you can actually get it earlier than fifteen seconds, but you must get a killing blow to do so, not an elimination, which can take some effort, or be easy to obtain if the opportunity arises. This is one aspect that can make Billow unfair, because of a cycle good Zhin players can get into to snowball easier.

    In regards to nerfs and changes, what he needs isn't basic modifications to cooldowns, damage, projectile speed, or other generic game values. He need some creative and personal touch that directly addresses the issues he has; one of the biggest problems I'm seeing with him is that he is often used with a passive playstyle (I blame Yomi), which makes his survivability more powerful than it should be. However, in game design, it's easy to encourage players to play certain ways without making them feel like you took something away. One of my ideas is to simply weight some of Zhin's more critical damage closer to himself, while still letting him poke and keep his range. In theory, Counter and Whirl already does this, but in practice, it isn't enough to convince players to use them for more damage. Of course, I'll add more to my rework thoughts once I have more data.

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    Beta Player Emperor Valkure's Avatar
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    I personally think that fixing his hit-boxes is mandatory. Then I'll lower his range/basic dmg. Then I'll wait for testing the result, before moving on other actions.
    I've finally found it!

    New to the forum? Have a look >>>here<<<! Some useful answers.

    #StopPlayingSupports
    Let them see how a game with shit-nerfed supports is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T0P4Z View Post
    For Billow, you can actually get it earlier than fifteen seconds, but you must get a killing blow to do so, not an elimination, which can take some effort, or be easy to obtain if the opportunity arises. This is one aspect that can make Billow unfair, because of a cycle good Zhin players can get into to snowball easier.

    In regards to nerfs and changes, what he needs isn't basic modifications to cooldowns, damage, projectile speed, or other generic game values. He need some creative and personal touch that directly addresses the issues he has; one of the biggest problems I'm seeing with him is that he is often used with a passive playstyle (I blame Yomi), which makes his survivability more powerful than it should be. However, in game design, it's easy to encourage players to play certain ways without making them feel like you took something away. One of my ideas is to simply weight some of Zhin's more critical damage closer to himself, while still letting him poke and keep his range. In theory, Counter and Whirl already does this, but in practice, it isn't enough to convince players to use them for more damage. Of course, I'll add more to my rework thoughts once I have more data.
    I'm aware of the CD reset, only helps him if he gets the last hit.

    I feel like yomi should only give bonus damage the closer you are to your target, infinite range needs to be removed.

    That would be a good start.

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    Beta Player Esquire T0P4Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkure View Post
    I personally think that fixing his hit-boxes is mandatory. Then I'll lower his range/basic dmg. Then I'll wait for testing the result, before moving on other actions.
    One of my ideas for that is to, instead of nerfing damage or range by a flat value, simply just apply "reverse Grover". Thematically, it can be explained by the oil burning up as it travels, and would make its 100% damage falloff at the single point less jarring (Though not a big deal anyway). To allow Zhin to maintain his DPS though, he can have bonus melee damage, or an alternative melee hitbox, that will allow him to deal his original damage closer range or perhaps even slightly more damage, whichever works to convince players to use Zhin less passively sometimes to be more effective.

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