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Thread: [Champion Concept] Lukan, The nimble trickster

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    Red face [Champion Concept] Lukan, The nimble trickster

    So, i like Front liners and i believe this one is a good addiction to the Realm.

    First, i want to say that i thought about a new Mechanic, which should only apply to him, i strongly believe this will work on a FPS.

    Lukan is a Front Line, he has low HP but he's able to dodge any projectile (or take reduced area damage).

    Lukan is a skinny character, human like (maybe something like an Elf) and worries about his clothes. As for his primary weapon, it looks like this:


    Lukan is a compulsive gambler, he loves card games, casinos and all this kind of thing.
    He always bets on his luck and uses a little bit of "talent" too. His nature is to trick, to deceive, so the odds are never against him.

    About his skills and stats:

    Lukan's HP: 3100 (a little bit lower than Barik's and a little bit higher than Grover's)

    Basic attack (LMB): Lukan throws his spining blades on a straight line, causing 700 damage to the first target it hits, every 1 second.

    Secondary attack/skill (RMB): Lukan Throws his dices and creates a Shield around him and close allies, shielding up to half of the result of two 6 faced dices (meaning it can shield from 1000 to 6000) lasts 7 seconds. (12 seconds cooldown after it turns off).
    for a no RNG option, it can shield you and nearby allies for 3000.

    Second skill (Q): Lukan Spins his Blades around him, dealing damage (1.2x his base damage, or 840) to every enemy close to him, cripling and slowing (60%) them for 2 seconds. (10 seconds cooldown).

    Dash skill (F): Lukan jumps over one target (ally or enemy) using their bodies to impulse himself upwards, traveling a distance similar to Buck's Leap. Lukan do not take any damage or hit while in the air. (8 seconds cooldown).
    In addition, Lukan is able to dodge any projectile shot against him, having 25% chance to dodge anything (or reducing 50% of area damage). This is a continuous effect and is always active.
    (an alternative to this skill with no RNG is dodging every 4th projectile or area effect that would harm him)

    Ultimate Skill (E):Lukan enters Shadow form for 6 seconds. While in that form, he gains stealth and doubles his chances to dodge projectiles (from 25 to 50%, or dodging ever 2nd skill if no RNG is used). Lukan cannot attack while in Shadow Form.


    Legendary card #1: Lukan's RMB is always a flat value instead of 2 dices (3000 shield)
    for a no RNG option (the shield would already shield 3000), it can reduce it's cooldown to 8 seconds (from 12 seconds).

    Legendary card #2: Lukan's Dash now stuns the target for 1 second if it's an enemy or lay a 2000 shield for 2 seconds if it's an ally.

    Legendary card #3: Lukan's 'Q' also knocks enemies to out of its reach.

    So, what you think about Lukan?

    Edit 1: His ultimate was not Tankish, so i wanted to change it.
    Also, created 3 legendary cards and adjusted his 'Q' damage, which was a little bit OP (from 1.5x weapon to 1.2x

    Edit 2: added a note where it gives you the same mechanics but with no RNG
    Last edited by XxBodeFucetaxX; 04-26-2017 at 07:35 AM.
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    Beta Player Sovereign Prince PWNDdotcom's Avatar
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    So first off, in what way is this a Front Line and not a flank? The only Shield he has is a personal one, and while that's true for Ruckus and Torvald, they still have ways to protect teammates.

    Plus, it uses RNG so it's immediately a terrible, awful idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PWNDdotcom View Post
    So first off, in what way is this a Front Line and not a flank? The only Shield he has is a personal one, and while that's true for Ruckus and Torvald, they still have ways to protect teammates.

    Plus, it uses RNG so it's immediately a terrible, awful idea.
    "Lukan Throws his dices and creates a Shield around him and close allies"

    Not personal...

    RNG it's part of the concept of him, luck is a strong part of him.
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    Beta Player Sovereign Prince PWNDdotcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XxBodeFucetaxX View Post
    RNG it's part of the concept of him, luck is a strong part of him.
    That doesn't mean it's a good thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PWNDdotcom View Post
    That doesn't mean it's a good thing.
    It doesn't mean it's a bad thing too...

    I'm thinking about changing the ultimate anyway, to appear more like a Tank.
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    Quote Originally Posted by XxBodeFucetaxX View Post
    It doesn't mean it's a bad thing too...
    Look, man, I personally would love a character with random elements. But the fact of the matter is that RNG and competitive FPS don't mix very well. You can't practice luck, and that makes professional, competitive players very, very angry. These people dedicate hours and hours to reduce the impact of luck on their games. And I hate to state the obvious, but if the pros don't like it, that starts your idea off at a serious disadvantage. But, if you're like me, and are writing concept ideas not for a slim chance of them becoming part of the game, but because it's fun to be creative, then there's really no reason to care.

    But, I think there's a win-win scenario here.

    I would recommend adding alternatives to the RNG abilities to something like the following.

    Secondary attack/skill (RMB): Snake Eyes. Lukan Throws his dice and creates a Shield around him and a targeted ally, shielding 3000 hp. lasts 7 seconds. (12 seconds cooldown after it turns off).


    Ultimate Skill (E): Loaded Dice: Throws his lucky dice at a target dealing 1500 damage and 20% of the targets max health. If Lukan Misses his shot, he takes 1000 damage.

    But of course, those are just examples. You can still keep the old ones and let people decide which they prefer.

    If it makes a difference, the other abilities are pretty cool. I particularly like the leap-frog F ability.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerweld View Post
    Look, man, I personally would love a character with random elements. But the fact of the matter is that RNG and competitive FPS don't mix very well. You can't practice luck, and that makes professional, competitive players very, very angry. These people dedicate hours and hours to reduce the impact of luck on their games. And I hate to state the obvious, but if the pros don't like it, that starts your idea off at a serious disadvantage. But, if you're like me, and are writing concept ideas not for a slim chance of them becoming part of the game, but because it's fun to be creative, then there's really no reason to care.

    But, I think there's a win-win scenario here.

    I would recommend adding alternatives to the RNG abilities to something like the following.

    Secondary attack/skill (RMB): Snake Eyes. Lukan Throws his dice and creates a Shield around him and a targeted ally, shielding 3000 hp. lasts 7 seconds. (12 seconds cooldown after it turns off).


    Ultimate Skill (E): Loaded Dice: Throws his lucky dice at a target dealing 1500 damage and 20% of the targets max health. If Lukan Misses his shot, he takes 1000 damage.

    But of course, those are just examples. You can still keep the old ones and let people decide which they prefer.

    If it makes a difference, the other abilities are pretty cool. I particularly like the leap-frog F ability.
    i'm changing this ult into something more tanky, or else he will be played as damage or flank, which may not be good for him.

    About luck, even professional players can't reduce luck. Luck is always a factor, it doesn't matter if you're using RNG or not.
    The way RNG is used may have a weight on that, if everything on your game is based on RNG, then you will depend a lot on luck (have you played board games based on dice?)
    Even tho, with good strategy, it's possible to make this RNG be almost insignificant, which i believe it's this case.

    But, i'm really consider what you're saying, if most of people doesn't like it, it's no use to have it.

    as for now, my suggestion is: a legendary card can make fix it.
    So, the average value of 3 dices are 7 (which results on 3500), as the card have to have a slighter lower value than the average, or it wouldn't make sense not to pick it, i agree with your suggested value of 3000.

    So, i will change the ultimate (editing the post) and suggesting to keep the RNG shield and to add a legendary card that makes it a flat value.
    What do you think?

    Edit: please check if those changes (on change notes on main topic) makes it a little bit like what you think.
    Last edited by XxBodeFucetaxX; 04-25-2017 at 05:20 AM.
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    Beta Player Count Hammerweld's Avatar
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    I'm not sure you understand what I mean by "reducing luck".

    Chance is a product of life, but when it comes to video games, the core rules are always dictated by static mechanics . Pro players study these mechanics to improve their chances of winning (Such as memorizing spray patterns, projectile speed or falloff distances, so they can maximize their chances of hitting a target). When a game introduces a random element, this limits how much a person can "learn" said mechanic.

    It's why games like Chess and Go, games that are all strategy and no chance, are still popular in competitive circles.

    Why do you think so many people hate random crits in TF2? Or why they are disabled in competitive play? It's fun to kill by chance, but not fun to die by chance.

    Which leads me to my main point. I believe you're neglecting a key aspect of game design know as "Counter-play". In rough words, it refers to how "fun" it is to lose to someone.

    If you are outplayed by skill or strategy, the experience is more enjoyable, because it feels counterable, in that if your aim or positioning was better, you could have avoided failure. If you are outplayed by chance, its far less fun.

    People like a fair fight, and random elements facilitate the opposite.

    For example, take your passive: "In addition, Lukan is able to dodge any projectile shot against him, having 25% chance to dodge anything (or reducing 50% of area damage). This is a continuous effect and is always active." Which is such a bad idea, my brain didn't even register it the first time I read it.

    This might be "fun" for the player, who gets to take less damage for no extra work, but it SUCKS EGGS to the person fighting against them. And when you've got champions where every shot counts, having 1/4th of them do nothing, or even just do less for no avoidable or even consistent reason, is madness.

    As in, it'll make those players really, REALLY mad.

    Heck, it makes ME feel mad just thinking about it.
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    Here's my big problem with this Champion. It doesn't make sense.

    1. It shouldn't be a front line. It's abilities are far better suited to a flank role.

    2. So his weapon is knives at the end of crossed chains. How does he throw it? It would either plop in front of him or deal as much damage as throwing some chain mail at someone would. The knives don't lock onto someone.

    3. They have no personality. The only thing about them is that they like to gamble. That is just boring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerweld View Post
    I'm not sure you understand what I mean by "reducing luck".

    Chance is a product of life, but when it comes to video games, the core rules are always dictated by static mechanics . Pro players study these mechanics to improve their chances of winning (Such as memorizing spray patterns, projectile speed or falloff distances, so they can maximize their chances of hitting a target). When a game introduces a random element, this limits how much a person can "learn" said mechanic.

    It's why games like Chess and Go, games that are all strategy and no chance, are still popular in competitive circles.

    Why do you think so many people hate random crits in TF2? Or why they are disabled in competitive play? It's fun to kill by chance, but not fun to die by chance.

    Which leads me to my main point. I believe you're neglecting a key aspect of game design know as "Counter-play". In rough words, it refers to how "fun" it is to lose to someone.

    If you are outplayed by skill or strategy, the experience is more enjoyable, because it feels counterable, in that if your aim or positioning was better, you could have avoided failure. If you are outplayed by chance, its far less fun.

    People like a fair fight, and random elements facilitate the opposite.

    For example, take your passive: "In addition, Lukan is able to dodge any projectile shot against him, having 25% chance to dodge anything (or reducing 50% of area damage). This is a continuous effect and is always active." Which is such a bad idea, my brain didn't even register it the first time I read it.

    This might be "fun" for the player, who gets to take less damage for no extra work, but it SUCKS EGGS to the person fighting against them. And when you've got champions where every shot counts, having 1/4th of them do nothing, or even just do less for no avoidable or even consistent reason, is madness.

    As in, it'll make those players really, REALLY mad.

    Heck, it makes ME feel mad just thinking about it.
    It doesn't.
    Studying those patterns aren't a way to minimize "luck".
    If you're saying that luck inside game is just shooting every direction possible, than you're just wrong.
    Luck involves many factor, some of them we can't even consider.
    When players dance with their champions, move around or shoot in anyone's direction, this is based on luck. But not only on luck, every player has his own skill, that have a really higher weight than just luck and RNG.

    I'm sorry if you don't agree with that, you probably didn't played any RNG game ever.

    Meanwhile, it's still possible to play with RNG and maintain a constant average on your successes and failures.

    And even claiming that "pros" do not like that, you cannot speak for pro players.

    I understand you gave me your opinion, but you do not need to insist in this kind of thing, i already read your opinion, said what i think. that's it. Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by PWNDdotcom View Post
    Here's my big problem with this Champion. It doesn't make sense.

    1. It shouldn't be a front line. It's abilities are far better suited to a flank role.

    2. So his weapon is knives at the end of crossed chains. How does he throw it? It would either plop in front of him or deal as much damage as throwing some chain mail at someone would. The knives don't lock onto someone.

    3. They have no personality. The only thing about them is that they like to gamble. That is just boring.
    1- I see that it may feels like a Flank, but i see this as much flank as a Makoa is.
    Makoa can just F forward and start shooting, his damage is not really far from Lukan's and he can just F to deal more damage.
    Lukan only have 1 skill to go forward (maybe i have set a longer distance that i should, it can be adjusted), but you also needs to consider that he needs another player to dash forward, it's not that simple as it looks.

    His mechanics aren't of a thank that sits on the point and shoots everyone that gets closer, like some Torvald players do.
    his mechanics were thought to keep dancing on the objective and get a nice chance to get in position.

    I'm sorry, but i don't see why you think he's a flank, can you tell me that, please?

    2- Lukan's weapons are thrown the same way that some hunters thrown Bolas (or boleadoras).

    3- yeah, i didn't give him much personality yet, i'm just working on the mechanics right now. I really want to do that in the future, tho.
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