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Hurgya
06-06-2017, 10:23 AM
(if you just came here to read my idea skip to the bald text)

I don't say she is way too OP, she is just extremely strong.

She has the most single target heal/sec (obviously)
With Mortal Reach, she has the most consistent heal
With the current CD, and this high amount of single target heals you have no problem keeping alive every team member (you spend up to 4 seconds to fully heal a non-FL ally before you can heal another target)
Without cauterize, you simply cannot kill someone who is healed by Seris on you own (not saying you should be able to just ignore it, but I think it's ridiculous how you can't finish your enemy without a certain burn-card)


What I try to say is: Restore soul's strengths are greater than it's weaknesses.

(Compared to Mal'Damba's heal; it's almost 4 times stronger (without the gourd) and has 2/3 of the CD, but you channel it)

I blame for this low-risk high reward situation the low CD and the potent burst-heal. (It has that really frustrating save potential. If you say, you've never been one hit away from a kill, when Seris saved your foe, I don't believe you)

So my idea is:

Change her 'heal-pattern' from linear to some convex curve (e.g. exponential)

Let me explain this a little bit: In a 'basic' you have 10 heal ticks, each with an strength of 200. I propose, that the strength of the ticks increases, as you channel the ability preventing the (IMO) unwanted lifesavers, and making it count more, whom you begin to heal, because for a strong heal you need to invest more time.

The full list of change ideas are:


Change the healing ticks from
200-200-...-200 to
105-115-135-155-175-200-225-260-295-335 (still adds up to 2000)
Change Soul Forge to reduce the CD based on the remaining channel time (you get back 0.2 sec for every tick not applied)
Adjust ult charging to the amount of heal (stays same on full 2 sec channel)
Change Mortal Reach to reduce the ability CD by 1 sec, rather than extending it (with the changes above, the extend would be stupidly OP)


These adjustments would probably change Seris to be less annoying to play against, without rendering her useless. (I really don't like, how they changed her ult, but that's a hugely different topic)
Another reason I shared this is that I found the lack of complicated math in a moba-like game rather interesting (I feel already, how many people disagree with this)

Thales3002
06-06-2017, 10:42 AM
I like the curve heal idea, so you cannot burst heal people from the other side of the map literally every 2 seconds

MadEngineer
06-06-2017, 10:47 AM
Not bad at all. I honestly mostly play her because of her escape ability more than her healing (So I can escape a bad situation and get back to healing quickly) so as long as I can do that, I don't really mind changes in the way she heals.

AmsterdamHeavy
06-06-2017, 11:17 AM
That heal just needs another second or two cooldown, or the cooldown card needs to be nerfed or changed more likely.

Comparing to Mal isnt right, as he has the gourd as well, which is AoE, and can slow. Ya cant really just leave that out of the comparison and focus on his single target heal when Seris only has that and it is the best single target heal in the game.

Hurgya
06-06-2017, 11:54 AM
That heal just needs another second or two cooldown, or the cooldown card needs to be nerfed or changed more likely.

Comparing to Mal isnt right, as he has the gourd as well, which is AoE, and can slow. Ya cant really just leave that out of the comparison and focus on his single target heal when Seris only has that and it is the best single target heal in the game.

I dared to compare because gourd has counterplay (besides Cauterize), and the skills are similar in most aspects. Including the fact they both have an over time effect. I could've said, that it has twice the healing power of the healing totem, and that if more than two people are standing in one place, it does more good for the enemy than you. It would be an even worse comparasion.
The point was that she has a strong burst heal and her kit is balanced around a long time heal.
But if you would like it better if I removed that line, I will do it for you.

(Mal'Damba mains unite!)

AmsterdamHeavy
06-06-2017, 12:50 PM
I dared to compare because gourd has counterplay (besides Cauterize), and the skills are similar in most aspects. Including the fact they both have an over time effect. I could've said, that it has twice the healing power of the healing totem, and that if more than two people are standing in one place, it does more good for the enemy than you. It would be an even worse comparasion.
The point was that she has a strong burst heal and her kit is balanced around a long time heal.
But if you would like it better if I removed that line, I will do it for you.

(Mal'Damba mains unite!)


I dunno. its well thought out, but my observation is that those "just in time heals" require a bit of attention and awareness to pull off; and the reward for that is justified (saving a near dead teammate).

While this address the burst heal, if you consider that a problem, you are tying her to healing more where she cant do other things.

The ticks you mention, how long for these 10 ticks to execute?

I reread, 10 ticks in 2 seconds?

If thats so, then again, it really is not a bad idea. It will remove some of the dynamic play from her though, and keep her tied to the activity for those 2 seconds whereas before it was fire and forget. Maybe the healing needs to be upped if you are tying her down for 2 seconds, to actually make staying on the button rewarding. Make the last 2 ticks take it over the previous total?

Frankly, the thing about Seris that frustrates me is her damn stun when Im playing front, but I guess that more of a personal problem. ;)

PullBenis
06-06-2017, 02:26 PM
The full list of change ideas are:


Change the healing ticks from
200-200-...-200 to
105-115-135-155-175-200-225-260-295-335 (still adds up to 2000)
Change Soul Forge to reduce the CD based on the remaining channel time (you get back 0.2 sec for every tick not applied)
Adjust ult charging to the amount of heal (stays same on full 2 sec channel)
Change Mortal Reach to reduce the ability CD by 1 sec, rather than extending it (with the changes above, the extend would be stupidly OP)


1. While the curve idea is interesting, you're basically taking a single target healer and forcing them to "stay on target" for the heal to be most effective. While currently target switching isn't instant, it is possible to at least judge whether your FL will survive long enough if you need to triage a damage/flank that comes in for healing. The first half of the channel heals barely over 1/3 of the total heal, so unless your first target is already at full health (like a damager/flank that strafed between you and your tank) then it isn't worth the time to switch. It also means that spot healing against a Cauterize heavy team becomes even more difficult than it currently is.

2. Soul Forge Change: Wait, so you want it to reduce the cooldown of your only heal, which is channeled, and in this case gets stronger while its channeled, by not channeling it for its full duration? This makes no sense. Granted Mal'damba has his lower CD if you miss card, but his heal is an instant application 5 sec. HoT with no range limit (yes if your aim is good you can snipe heal with it over some crazy distances.) Also, how would you handle each rank of Soul Forge? Is the 0.2 sec at Rank 1 or Rank 4? If its Rank 4 then its even more useless than previously thought. If its at Rank 1, then Rank 4 would be at least 0.8 sec removed, which would completely negate the CD if you're only channeling it for half the base duration, but at only 34% of the total heal strength, making it still more viable to just channel for the extra second on any target that isn't already full health. Frankly this change would only be good if you reversed your healing curve (heal more upfront and diminishes over the duration.) All this without taking into account any cauterize applied by the enemy team.

4. Mortal Reach change: A 1 sec CD reduction isn't a Legendary Card. Its not worth 12k essence and even with your above described changes, is nearly useless even compared to her garbage Soul Collector Legendary that already exists. While I agree Mortal Reach could use a change, frankly they could either nerf its Range to say 200% or could just drop 1 half of it (either the extra second of channel or 300% range) and it would be fine. Hell they could drop both and make it more like "20% of your healing done to a target overflows in an area around them healing nearby allies."

I get that Seris is the strongest single target healer in the game, but she's just that a single target healer. How many games have you played as a damage/flank and received little to no heals from Seris? You complain about it to them and they're all: "Look I'm trying but the tank is getting his shit pushed in and they're already up to Caut 2. If you want more healing, try taking some of the pressure off." However if you nerf her single target healing throughput too much without giving her a multi-target healing effect to counter it, then you're just relegating her to shit tier support. I realize that with the changes to Ying, we've basically got only 2 top tier supports (Seris and 'damba) but is the goal to see no supports in top tier play? HiRez seems to think so, between the nerfs to Ying, the lack of attention on Grover and Grohk, and the existence of 90% Cauterize, too many more nerfs and it'll be more beneficial to just bring a 4th damage and kill the enemy faster.

Hurgya
06-06-2017, 03:09 PM
1. While the curve idea is interesting, you're basically taking a single target healer and forcing them to "stay on target" for the heal to be most effective. While currently target switching isn't instant, it is possible to at least judge whether your FL will survive long enough if you need to triage a damage/flank that comes in for healing. The first half of the channel heals barely over 1/3 of the total heal, so unless your first target is already at full health (like a damager/flank that strafed between you and your tank) then it isn't worth the time to switch. It also means that spot healing against a Cauterize heavy team becomes even more difficult than it currently is.

2. Soul Forge Change: Wait, so you want it to reduce the cooldown of your only heal, which is channeled, and in this case gets stronger while its channeled, by not channeling it for its full duration? This makes no sense. Granted Mal'damba has his lower CD if you miss card, but his heal is an instant application 5 sec. HoT with no range limit (yes if your aim is good you can snipe heal with it over some crazy distances.) Also, how would you handle each rank of Soul Forge? Is the 0.2 sec at Rank 1 or Rank 4? If its Rank 4 then its even more useless than previously thought. If its at Rank 1, then Rank 4 would be at least 0.8 sec removed, which would completely negate the CD if you're only channeling it for half the base duration, but at only 34% of the total heal strength, making it still more viable to just channel for the extra second on any target that isn't already full health. Frankly this change would only be good if you reversed your healing curve (heal more upfront and diminishes over the duration.) All this without taking into account any cauterize applied by the enemy team.

4. Mortal Reach change: A 1 sec CD reduction isn't a Legendary Card. Its not worth 12k essence and even with your above described changes, is nearly useless even compared to her garbage Soul Collector Legendary that already exists. While I agree Mortal Reach could use a change, frankly they could either nerf its Range to say 200% or could just drop 1 half of it (either the extra second of channel or 300% range) and it would be fine. Hell they could drop both and make it more like "20% of your healing done to a target overflows in an area around them healing nearby allies."

I get that Seris is the strongest single target healer in the game, but she's just that a single target healer. How many games have you played as a damage/flank and received little to no heals from Seris? You complain about it to them and they're all: "Look I'm trying but the tank is getting his shit pushed in and they're already up to Caut 2. If you want more healing, try taking some of the pressure off." However if you nerf her single target healing throughput too much without giving her a multi-target healing effect to counter it, then you're just relegating her to shit tier support. I realize that with the changes to Ying, we've basically got only 2 top tier supports (Seris and 'damba) but is the goal to see no supports in top tier play? HiRez seems to think so, between the nerfs to Ying, the lack of attention on Grover and Grohk, and the existence of 90% Cauterize, too many more nerfs and it'll be more beneficial to just bring a 4th damage and kill the enemy faster.

1. Spot healing is not difficult with Seris: You walk so you can see the dying teammate look in their general direction and press RMB. The point of the whole post is to lower her ridiculous burst heal. Forcing players to make decisions on their healing target (and to how long to heal them) is also crucial. Currently you just heal everybody full, because in 4 seconds you can heal your FL again. And if he dies until then, one of you are doing something wrong.

2. Again it is to prevent mindless heal spam,but on second thought, it would it would be more appropriate to increase the effect to 1.5X (with a maximum of 3 sec reduction)

3. There's no 3. point

4. The range increase stays, merely the duration increase is replaced

Currently Seris is not a mere single target healer, she is the most powerful healer in the game, with the most single target heal, the second most burst heal (just behind Pip), one of the best saving potentials and by far the most sustained heal (3000 in every 5 seconds with Mortal Reach).

So she is the absolute best in single target, she is not far behind in range (the infinite range sounds way more useful than it really is), she is even the best in sustain heals, she is close to best in burst heals, she can easily keep multiple targets at maximum (thanks to the best sustain), and is probably the best in saving teammates ass (Torvald and Pip can help them absolutely instantly, but Seris overcomes them with her low CD).

Again, thinking objectively she is not that OP, as from this comment it might seem; Cauterize does its work really well against her, but she is definitely stronger, than she should be.

SiderumNocte
06-06-2017, 04:01 PM
Woah, Mortal Reach useless?
You are mental if you actually believe that.
If you're playing Seris as an actual healer and not a flank, Mortal Reach is really the only viable card.
The range increase is so massive and that alone is worth it.
The range is limited but in actual play that range is almost not noticeable.
You can basically heal anyone from anywhere on most maps.
Without Mortal Reach, you're honestly not healing effectively, her base channeling range is very limited.

As to the curve while interesting, I would despise it.
The thing is if you were to heal targets that were half health such as flanks it take much longer than now. (Obvious Statement)
I don't mean in battle necessarily, but after a battle. Momentum is so important in pro games and every second matters, so the faster you can heal an ally the better.
The faster an ally is at full health the faster that ally can continue to do their job.
Also if possible attack that Seris whilst she is channeling.
You'll force Seris into using her F ability which is a big deal, much like forcing Ying to use hers.

The reason Seris became stronger than she needed to be was because they gave her a 1 second cooldown which she did not need.
There are two cards a Seris main will probably run at rank 4 or 3 depending on preference.
Blood Pact which heals for quite a lot while Seris is using Restore Soul and Soul Forge which can reduce the cooldown of Restore Soul by 2s.
If you maxed out Soul Forge your cooldown would be at 3 seconds. And at the 3 seconds that heal is far stronger than Mal Damba's and that was beyond a great cooldown for how powerful that heal is.
What Seris needed was her ult to be buffed which it was but they also gave her a 1s cooldown which was not needed.
Meaning her Restore Soul was on a 2s cooldown which is absurd due to the amount of healing that ability does.
So revert that buff.

Also Buff Ying because I am a Salty Ying Main.

Hurgya
06-06-2017, 04:29 PM
Yeah, I meant it as an interesting idea, especially for those, who like a bit more complicated formula, nothing more.

Maybe they will include a champion with a curved heal in the future? (definitely not full-channel though)

PullBenis
06-06-2017, 04:54 PM
Where are you getting the concept that Seris has a "burst heal?" Unless you're referencing her Soul Rend, which mind you, short of Blood Pact, is her only way to heal herself in combat. She doesn't have a Gourd/Potion/Totem/Illusion to keep herself up.

As for healing other champions, she has 1 heal, and its not burst. Its channeled, and for the duration of the channel she can't do anything else short of move. There is no large, instantaneous heal like Pip's Healing Potion, or even Grover's Blossom (yes I realize Grover's Blossom is nigh on crap, but it's still a burst heal.)

You mention Pip a bit, so lets compare the 2 while taking a controlled look at them. A support spec'd Pip will heal a single target for 2400 hp instantly every 6 seconds. For Seris to match just the raw healing numbers she has to spend 2.4 seconds channeling her heal. Pip is free to spend those 6 seconds dealing 600 dps to the opposing tank for a theoretical maximum of 3600 damage. Seris has only 3.1 seconds (there is a 0.5 sec animation delay on her LMB) to counter his damage. While Seris's dps is higher (723) because she spends over 1/3 of the time healing her actual damage within the 6 sec window is only 2170. So she's theoretically doing only 60% of Pip's damage in order to equal his healing on a single target.

Yes Seris has a higher throughput than any other support, but that's because unlike other supports, if she's healing she literally can't do anything else short of wander around. There's no drop an illusion/Totem and deal damage like Ying/Grohk (yeah I know Ying's healing keeps getting nerfed and Grohk's totem is a squishy target.) There's no constant LMB spam while passively AoE healing with the every 12 sec AoE burst like Grover. There's no rain of grenade fire and slows while bursting 2400 AoE healing every 6 sec as Pip. There's no damaging/slowing/healing gourd or stuns, while HoTing your team for 5 sec every 3 sec. Seris spends upwards of 60% of a fight (3 out of every 5 sec) healing and only healing and still only a single target.

Hurgya
06-07-2017, 06:05 AM
Where are you getting the concept that Seris has a "burst heal?" Unless you're referencing her Soul Rend, which mind you, short of Blood Pact, is her only way to heal herself in combat. She doesn't have a Gourd/Potion/Totem/Illusion to keep herself up.

As for healing other champions, she has 1 heal, and its not burst. Its channeled, and for the duration of the channel she can't do anything else short of move. There is no large, instantaneous heal like Pip's Healing Potion, or even Grover's Blossom (yes I realize Grover's Blossom is nigh on crap, but it's still a burst heal.)

You mention Pip a bit, so lets compare the 2 while taking a controlled look at them. A support spec'd Pip will heal a single target for 2400 hp instantly every 6 seconds. For Seris to match just the raw healing numbers she has to spend 2.4 seconds channeling her heal. Pip is free to spend those 6 seconds dealing 600 dps to the opposing tank for a theoretical maximum of 3600 damage. Seris has only 3.1 seconds (there is a 0.5 sec animation delay on her LMB) to counter his damage. While Seris's dps is higher (723) because she spends over 1/3 of the time healing her actual damage within the 6 sec window is only 2170. So she's theoretically doing only 60% of Pip's damage in order to equal his healing on a single target.

Yes Seris has a higher throughput than any other support, but that's because unlike other supports, if she's healing she literally can't do anything else short of wander around. There's no drop an illusion/Totem and deal damage like Ying/Grohk (yeah I know Ying's healing keeps getting nerfed and Grohk's totem is a squishy target.) There's no constant LMB spam while passively AoE healing with the every 12 sec AoE burst like Grover. There's no rain of grenade fire and slows while bursting 2400 AoE healing every 6 sec as Pip. There's no damaging/slowing/healing gourd or stuns, while HoTing your team for 5 sec every 3 sec. Seris spends upwards of 60% of a fight (3 out of every 5 sec) healing and only healing and still only a single target.

I haven't read your post, and will not read it in the future, because arguing about it is utterly pointless. I started this thread to share an idea, I found interesting.

You don't think it's a good idea - maybe it's a terrible idea indeed
You don't think Seris needs to be changed - well, that's your opinion, I can respect that

Btw by burst heal I meant she can heal 1k in a second (that's quite bursty imo)

milkAcat
06-07-2017, 06:27 AM
It's a good idea, but I don't know if it's necessary.

Isn't it easy enough to just focus her down? If she is trying to defend herself, she can't heal her team.

Forcing Seris to run or defend herself is huge. Other healers all have that advantage over her since they all have instant and passive heals.

And if that doesn't work, cauterize is a good choice.

SmilesAreDaggers
06-07-2017, 07:00 AM
I think you are thinking engagements ina "gun game" are supposed to be 1v1 when a seris steps in to heal an aly it becomes an effective 2v1 scenario -- That is the basis of games where it is team focused and objective focused play. team shoot FTW in every scenario, or have a dedicated fernando 95% of the time (who still bursts with you to assure easy finishes of opponents).

youre looking at it as a 1 to 1 scenario when its supposed to be "work as a team to make TTK as fast as possible and move on"

also Damba has a native 1s stun, for Seris youd have to use the legendary card AND mark em 4x. and if you did the curve it should start at the 335 and work its way tapering down to 115 to make it useful and not always full time of use used, then people would heal an average of 1200 (which is easy to negate unless youre playing an attack support)

SmilesAreDaggers
06-07-2017, 07:06 AM
pip heals more faster and isnt locked into being a target for 2 plus seconds either... so yeah... numbers matter when discussing gaming just a heads up man, and if you cannot take a criticism of your idea and actually read the info maybe you are the type of gamer that is why most online games are falling apart with damage control to PR nerfs and patches that werent needing to happen. not to Ad-Hominem but instead of tossing out just complaints maybe try to see why its not actually unbalanced and broken like you think and look at how you (and presumably your teammates) are playing and what you could do as a team to rotate more and work out team firing to make all kills easy instead of investing time into becoming part of that "crybully" problem games these days have that ends up hurting the entire basis of the game after a while

Hurgya
06-07-2017, 07:07 AM
I think you are thinking engagements ina "gun game" are supposed to be 1v1 when a seris steps in to heal an aly it becomes an effective 2v1 scenario -- That is the basis of games where it is team focused and objective focused play. team shoot FTW in every scenario, or have a dedicated fernando 95% of the time (who still bursts with you to assure easy finishes of opponents).

youre looking at it as a 1 to 1 scenario when its supposed to be "work as a team to make TTK as fast as possible and move on"

also Damba has a native 1s stun, for Seris youd have to use the legendary card AND mark em 4x. and if you did the curve it should start at the 335 and work its way tapering down to 115 to make it useful and not always full time of use used, then people would heal an average of 1200 (which is easy to negate unless youre playing an attack support)

I didn't say, it was unfair, I said it was frustrating and felt cheap when a Seris saved your opponent. And as I stated multiple time, Seris is not game braking op, she is just slightly stronger than she should be, and these are not "actual" balancing suggestions, just a fun idea of mine
(I also wanted to complain a bit about Seris, because I can't stand when a player probably inferior to me heals more)

Hurgya
06-07-2017, 07:19 AM
pip heals more faster and isnt locked into being a target for 2 plus seconds either... so yeah... numbers matter when discussing gaming just a heads up man, and if you cannot take a criticism of your idea and actually read the info maybe you are the type of gamer that is why most online games are falling apart with damage control to PR nerfs and patches that werent needing to happen. not to Ad-Hominem but instead of tossing out just complaints maybe try to see why its not actually unbalanced and broken like you think and look at how you (and presumably your teammates) are playing and what you could do as a team to rotate more and work out team firing to make all kills easy instead of investing time into becoming part of that "crybully" problem games these days have that ends up hurting the entire basis of the game after a while

You are just an arrogant prick.
Feel free to give me bad reputation for that, it was worth it.

If you actually read the post, and my replies to other commenters, you would know, I was just a wee bit salty about how cheap was Seris, , didn't think for a moment, that this was the way, thing should be ingame .

And you wouldn't think I am an incompetent asshole, who cries OP, whenever gets killed by an enemy, or unfair, when more the other team helps their mates against me. (this wasn't really in the post, it's just basic human decency to not think, everybody is that stupid)

So please stop with that clear ad hominem and maybe, just maybe improve as a person, and learn some respect for others?

SmilesAreDaggers
06-08-2017, 08:25 AM
You are just an arrogant prick.
Feel free to give me bad reputation for that, it was worth it.

If you actually read the post, and my replies to other commenters, you would know, I was just a wee bit salty about how cheap was Seris, , didn't think for a moment, that this was the way, thing should be ingame .

And you wouldn't think I am an incompetent asshole, who cries OP, whenever gets killed by an enemy, or unfair, when more the other team helps their mates against me. (this wasn't really in the post, it's just basic human decency to not think, everybody is that stupid)

So please stop with that clear ad hominem and maybe, just maybe improve as a person, and learn some respect for others?

bad rep? you think I'm butt hurt? and here's some real ad-hominem since you think the last one was actually this. you suck at this game if you think that seris should be weakened so much and the inverse of a useful healer just so you can feel superior. all in all that means you must suck at the game man. plain out why think of changing anything aside from having more modes of play and fixing actual bugs? just spec out different builds and buy different abilities with the credits and find out what will actually work for you and your team. I did read all the posts here including ones you obviously didnt read (and stated you didnt read and wouldnt read-- maybe because they were too in depth and intelligent for you to comprehend) you showed 0 respect to other so I calculated I would get none and then replied accordingly--you see respect is a cycle, you give none you get none.