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View Full Version : You nerf Ying's healing, so I tried a bomb Ying - and it worked!



GermanGarbage
05-17-2017, 07:28 PM
I don't know why you have to keep nerfing Ying's cute butt.

"You can have either good OR easy heals." is no argument for making a support more viable as a DAMAGE dealer than a healer, seriously.

http://paladins.guru/match/pc/114996290

Just look at it. I dealt even more damage than DROGOZ. It's ridiculous!

You don't even need skill in order to get UNSTOPPABLE back to back to back.

Please, Hi-Rez. Don't get your champions into an identity crisis over such trivial things as global win/pick rate and noobs complaining in these forums.

Without OB 50 I would have never even CONSIDERED abusing Ying that way.

And it does NOT require more skill than her heals do, just because I have to press one more button (a button that I usually intentionally IGNORE).

This has to stop!

CandySuxxx
05-17-2017, 07:57 PM
Thankfully you will stay at that elo with ur bomb ying and wont bother people who need healing.

SirGontar
05-18-2017, 04:04 AM
http://i.memeful.com/media/post/1RXXDRp_700wa_0.gif

GermanGarbage
05-18-2017, 05:36 AM
Thankfully you will stay at that elo with ur bomb ying and wont bother people who need healing.

Actually, I switched to Pip as my main healer. Just need to edit my signature.

And, by the way, Elo has no influence on the ingame matchmaking, you genius.

Just take a look at this match:

http://paladins.guru/match/pc/114951631

Outhealing Ying with Pip? No problem.

GermanGarbage
05-18-2017, 06:02 AM
http://i.memeful.com/media/post/1RXXDRp_700wa_0.gif

Don't worry, I won't do this again. I just wanted to see if it works.

Eviler
05-18-2017, 06:39 AM
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed//001/067/362/f3c.gif

Insizer
05-18-2017, 06:49 AM
They need to undo the nerf. Ying can only do two things: heal or do damage. She has no CC at all, yet she keeps getting nerfed. The beam distance nerf was enough.

Rhaenxys
05-18-2017, 07:04 AM
I was using a resonance build even before OB 50, it basically lets me spam clones for healing or damage purposes, i think her healing is fine, she was a bit over the top without too much effort but the hp nerf should be reverted, nerfing healing per second and between bursts is one thing but you cant justify the hp nerf anymore, it should go back to 2500 like every support.

EpplZ
05-18-2017, 10:03 AM
Thankfully you will stay at that elo with ur bomb ying and wont bother people who need healing.

dat burn :D

Peinzius
05-18-2017, 10:08 AM
I still don't see how people think that bomb Ying is viable. The damage is so unreliable, and you can get way more by using focusing lens.

Nudgarrobot
05-18-2017, 02:25 PM
Pein that's untrue. Focusing Lens is a 350 bonus damage after a channel time, during which you can't focus on or do anything else, and which relies on perfect tracking, which many of the flanks that you're going to have to fight on Ying won't allow. You're guaranteed going to get more damage from passive resonance clones than from the bonus damage on Focusing Lens.

Properly built, Resonance is better for 1v1s as long as you maintain good positioning as well. The only thing that Focusing Lens does better is allowing you to engage from a far-midrange or from height disadvantage, which you shouldn't be playing from anyway.

Remember, Resonance detonates clones when you spawn new clones, when clones time out, when clones are destroyed, and from ultimate prisms. Not to mention that it forces the other team into
A: Ceding ground
B: Killing clones and eating the damage (And refunding your clone cooldowns to boot)
C: Allowing healing

Focusing lens just isn't better. At all.

Valkure
05-19-2017, 03:12 AM
Properly built, Resonance is better for 1v1s as long as you maintain good positioning as well.
You've said all right (though here many hate Bomb-Ying, pretending she's not healing! ... Yes, I always get best healer with her), just a small adjustment: it's also a perfect strategy against very high HP tank/s on the point.
You can't save your Barik against Torvald+Fernando, but providing area dmg on the point will get rid of the due extremely quickly!

CandySuxxx
05-19-2017, 03:30 AM
How to counter resonance ying:

1. Press 'S'
2. ...

Valkure
05-19-2017, 03:35 AM
How to counter resonance ying:
1. Press 'S'
2. ...
Have you ever consider that when you're busy fighting, or facing something else, or under CC, you are unable to press S? Or maybe you just don't notice the illusions behind your back?

CandySuxxx
05-19-2017, 03:54 AM
Have you ever consider that when you're busy fighting,
That is all game basically.


or facing something else,
Yes in general i face damage dealers and when those are dead i unload on makoa. That is how you play paladins.


or under CC, you are unable to press S?
When hit by cc you are dead anyway.


Or maybe you just don't notice the illusions behind your back?
That only happens if the ying places the illusion in a bad spot by mistake.


If all else fails, you take that pathetic 500 damage and kill her anyway, or get rekt by a makoa.

Valkure
05-19-2017, 04:09 AM
That is all game basically.
Indeed. And that is why people are not dodging illusions, but die to them.
I'm happy I've finally being able to make you understand why Bomb-Ying works.

CandySuxxx
05-19-2017, 10:53 AM
I see many resonance yings but i never get hit by the illusions, and im not even paying attention. You do overall more damage with focusing lens and thats confirmed damage not a lotto.

Nudgarrobot
05-19-2017, 01:53 PM
How to counter resonance ying:

1. Press 'S'
2. ...

Thing is, Candy, that doesn't counter her.
Res Ying isn't about spamming damage, which is the misconception. It's about zoning from point. The optimal place to get your illusions as res ying is near the enemy's side of point, so that to stand on point they have to destroy or walk past them.

Placing your illusions in your backline as resying is pointless (Unless you're actively anticipating a dive to counter it)

If you don't think that concession of ground (press s) is very valuable, I don't really know what to say.
You're forcing them to cede, or forcing them to allow heals, or forcing them to take damage. It's super valuable. And remember, that 500 damage you're taking from killing a clone
-Gives her 2s back onto her cooldowns
-Heals her for 30% of that damage immediately
-She can respawn it with Rewind at low HP
-She can still shoot the whole time she's doing that

If you think pressing S counters res ying, you're playing res ying wrong.

The last game I played as Res Ying I won with no frontline and 112k damage over the enemy Drogoz's 109k damage.

Peinzius
05-19-2017, 02:22 PM
It's only 500 damage, which when used against tanks like you're saying, isn't making much difference.

Focusing lens helps her win a lot of 1v1's against flanks while also being able to keep your healing on the tanks.

I think that we can all that Lifelike is only useful with double tanks, but Mal'damba would be a better option then.

I find the only use for Resonance is in her ultimate, which can zone off the entire point and kill unsuspecting squishies.

Mal'damba's Ripened Gourd can affect all enemies, dealing sometimes 1000s of damage when ignored. It has CC, damage and can heal more teammates than Resonance can.

If you want a AOE damage dealer that can attack the point, use Bomb King instead of Bomb Ying, Drogoz, Pip etc.

Nudgarrobot
05-19-2017, 02:54 PM
I looked at Focusing Lens' stats and it's even worse than I thought it was though. You're literally getting 200 bonus damage (Not the 350 that I had thought it was) for hitting the full channel. That's abysmal. If you don't think you could hit 1-2 clone dets in that same time if you're being forced into a 1v1 then whatever, if you say so.

I'm just saying as well, what does Focusing Lens do for your team?
It's questionable already if it's better for dueling flanks at all, Andro MAYBE if he's floating above so that you can't let clones bodyblock, but even in that situation
Resilience makes Ying less countered by Cauterize, while Focusing Lens doesn't. Clones will be useless with Caut III with Focusing Lens, and will still have point control presence with Resilience.
Resilience ruins Barik and, funnily enough, other Yings who aren't running Resilience.
Bonus damage from Focusing Lens can't apply to shields or deployables-- Resilience clones can.
Even if you're hitting an average of 1 person per clone (Usually I'd say clones hit an average of 1.5ish) you're still getting way more dps than Focusing Lens can give, and you can still prioritize targets with it.

Say you're hitting one person with your resonance explosions.
You place your first clone, and then the next one 4s later, assuming they didn't kill your first one
So that's 1000/5s allotting for the clone cast time. You then dimlink to respawn both clones, and if you're not confident that the enemy team will kill those, you can shatter them. That's another 1000, if you're hitting only one person. You dimlink to respawn both clones again, and this time you leave them regardless of whether the enemy will destroy them or not- If they're not destroyed they'll be doing good healing, and if they are destroyed you'll have more again instantly. So that's 3000 damage over the course of like 9s if you're only hitting a single person/object. Over the course of 9s with Focusing Lens the bonus damage you'll get, also on a single target, would be

.5s(Initial shot)+1.2s + 1.2s +1.2s +1.2s +1.2s + 2.0s(Reload is about 1.5) + 1.2
(^^6.5s for a full clip)
200 + 200 + 200 + 200 + 200 + 200|reload| + 200 + 200
=1600 over 9.7 seconds.
Closer comparison would be 1400 over the 8.5s.

And that's the maximum amount of damage that Focusing Lens can give, while Resonance gives more than that even if it's only hitting one person on average. Usually you're hitting more than one person-- A person and an object like a shield or a deployable, multiple persons, you name it.

Peinzius
05-19-2017, 03:03 PM
I find that you aren't usually hitting even one person with your clones. I play Ying pretty safe, so maybe it's only because I keep her clones further back. Focusing Lens is so much more reliable than Resonance though. Maybe the enemies will happen to be standing near an illusion as it expires, maybe they will happen to shoot a clone near them. You can easily and reliably get off extra 200 damage, which isn't mitigated by blast shields or haven, I'm pretty sure.

If it's a smaller point like Jaguar Falls or Brightmarsh, maybe Resonance is better, but overall Focusing Lens gives you higher burst, unexpected kills and a better tool to focus down enemies because Resonance has a cooldown, and the illusions can't move spots. I don't count shatter, because they move like 5 feet and it rarely does anything.

Focusing Lens allows Ying to move more freely and apply damage where it needs to go, not just where it ends up going. A lot of Resonance damage ends up being healed away, but you know that Focusing Lens won't be if you keep targeting someone.

Not to mention Focusing Lens can apply cauterise.

Nudgarrobot
05-19-2017, 03:18 PM
You can run cauterize just as much running Resonance though.

And the safe playstyle explains it. You're using your F a bit more aggressively with Res Ying-- You're not just sitting in the back so much.

And with moving Illusions with Shatter-- Remember that you're running Rewind for the build. You could have a clone mispositioned to the side of a point, and another mispositioned somewhere in mid, shatter, both will move toward point, and then you can do the dimlink chain to move them and respawn them in position, and deal damage at the same time.

Position your clones as if they were grumpy bombs that can heal your team- you'll get the most of their zoning and healing this way.

I don't think it's possible to convince you that it works by talking about how much it works even at high level though.
I just encourage you to try it. It's a different playstyle than normal Ying, much more active, much less passive, so it could take time to get used to, but it's incredibly impactful-- Ying has been my go-to support ever since I realized you could run her this way because I can top heal the game and carry my team at the same time, instead of just healing a bit and staying alive.

Peinzius
05-19-2017, 03:31 PM
I mean I have tried it, and when legendaries were first announced this is the one I was most excited for.

The thing I dislike about it is that it seems so much more static. You can either have all your heals and damage on the point/tanks, or try and keep everyone alive but have little impact with Resonance.

Maybe it does work, and I've just happened to see someone carry as it in my game so far.

I've been to hasty to write it off as another Surprise Attack or Recycler, but maybe Resonance does have it's place.

CandySuxxx
05-19-2017, 05:25 PM
If its working, then its overpowered. End of discussion.

TouFuub
05-20-2017, 02:44 AM
If its working, then its overpowered. End of discussion.

AW but I want to BY with you while getting top heals D:

Valkure
05-22-2017, 02:10 AM
It's only 500 damage, which when used against tanks like you're saying, isn't making much difference.
No, it's 500 dmg PER ILLUSIONS (x 2) repeated 3 times in a row. Aka: 3000 dmg. Cooldown of 2 seconds, then repeat. Or with Chronos (or suitable loadout) even less.
I am usually the one who kills Torvald/Ruckus/Fernando/and-so-on, eg: people with MAAAAAAAANY HP. Or stupid flank with one shoot. Moreover:
1) the shatter dmg is AoE, so you are hitting multiple enemies, if in the area
2) in the meanwhile, you are still using your LMB, so, add more dmg.

And please, to everyone, stop with the lie "if you use Resonance, you heal too less". I ALWAYS out-heal Lifelike Yings. You aren't shattering continuously, only when needed. And on top of that, you have ulti more often than a Moral Boost 3 Ying. All direct experience.


I find that you aren't usually hitting even one person with your clones. I play Ying pretty safe, so maybe it's only because I keep her clones further back.
And that's why they can evade your illusion. But the reason is: because you aren't placing the illusions right for a Bomb-Ying. Of course it's a total different play-style and you can't pretend to be successful in Bomb-Ying, while playing as a pure healing Ying.


Not to mention Focusing Lens can apply cauterise.
LMB the enemy being "shattered": Cauterize still working, but you're dealing a lot more dmg.


If its working, then its overpowered. End of discussion.
So, after spending months declaring continuously that it doesn't work, now you say "if it works, it's OP" (as if "so it should be removed").
Darling, no one wants to force you in playing Bomb Ying: you can play with her with your favorite play-style. But this a priori stance is a non sense.

GaoShun
05-22-2017, 02:57 AM
I only tried bomb Ying a few times (actually thanks to this thread) but yesterday the funniest thing happened

- A Dragon Fury Drogoz ran to my bomb Ying clone and it blew up on his face and killed him - funny stuff

TouFuub
05-22-2017, 06:49 PM
I only tried bomb Ying a few times (actually thanks to this thread) but yesterday the funniest thing happened

- A Dragon Fury Drogoz ran to my bomb Ying clone and it blew up on his face and killed him - funny stuff

*High-five*

EpplZ
05-23-2017, 04:04 AM
"BombYing? What a disgrace, blow away peasant" BK (2017)

GermanGarbage
05-23-2017, 03:42 PM
I only tried bomb Ying a few times (actually thanks to this thread) but yesterday the funniest thing happened

- A Dragon Fury Drogoz ran to my bomb Ying clone and it blew up on his face and killed him - funny stuff

Yeah, I love these moments too.

And I usually facepalm when the Drogoz of my team does such a stupid thing (meaning: activating his ult on low health).

Rhaenxys
05-23-2017, 04:28 PM
No, it's 500 dmg PER ILLUSIONS (x 2) repeated 3 times in a row. Aka: 3000 dmg. Cooldown of 2 seconds, then repeat. Or with Chronos (or suitable loadout) even less.
I am usually the one who kills Torvald/Ruckus/Fernando/and-so-on, eg: people with MAAAAAAAANY HP. Or stupid flank with one shoot. Moreover:
1) the shatter dmg is AoE, so you are hitting multiple enemies, if in the area
2) in the meanwhile, you are still using your LMB, so, add more dmg.

And please, to everyone, stop with the lie "if you use Resonance, you heal too less". I ALWAYS out-heal Lifelike Yings. You aren't shattering continuously, only when needed. And on top of that, you have ulti more often than a Moral Boost 3 Ying. All direct experience.


And that's why they can evade your illusion. But the reason is: because you aren't placing the illusions right for a Bomb-Ying. Of course it's a total different play-style and you can't pretend to be successful in Bomb-Ying, while playing as a pure healing Ying.


LMB the enemy being "shattered": Cauterize still working, but you're dealing a lot more dmg.


So, after spending months declaring continuously that it doesn't work, now you say "if it works, it's OP" (as if "so it should be removed").
Darling, no one wants to force you in playing Bomb Ying: you can play with her with your favorite play-style. But this a priori stance is a non sense.

Today i got a match with that exact issue, one inara on my team was saying something like "ying cancer build" just for using resonance... with encouragement IV and spring bloom II i have enough to heal two tanks on my team and everyone else, is pretty funny outhealing other yings or other support with what is considered "a damage build" while it works for everything, plus as you say, i can get my ultimate ready way faster than other supports thanks to the resonance damage.

Valkure
05-24-2017, 02:02 AM
Today i got a match with that exact issue, one inara on my team was saying something like "ying cancer build" just for using resonance... with encouragement IV and spring bloom II i have enough to heal two tanks on my team and everyone else, is pretty funny outhealing other yings or other support with what is considered "a damage build" while it works for everything, plus as you say, i can get my ultimate ready way faster than other supports thanks to the resonance damage.
Only one time, when they told me "Ying, don't shatter!" (we were against two cheaters, one using Ruckus!, and my illusions were the only things able to harm him), I've stopped. And we lost.
Now, if someone start with the "don't shatter", I simply ignore them. I am the healer and I know what I'm doing. If you don't trust me, next time pick a healer yourself.

Of course at the end I get best healer. Thrust in the dmg loadout. It works.

JohnnyBoi3231x
05-26-2017, 12:00 PM
Because ying is brain dead easy to play yet she can out heal a mal dumba who has to focus and actually manage cooldowns, aim, and get well timed stuns. The nerfs make sense, sorry to all you weebs out there.

GermanGarbage
05-27-2017, 10:17 AM
Because ying is brain dead easy to play yet she can out heal a mal dumba who has to focus and actually manage cooldowns, aim, and get well timed stuns. The nerfs make sense, sorry to all you weebs out there.

Yet I see many people playing her wrong, starting with a useless loadout, affecting the item choices and not even an hour ago I had a match with 2 Lifelike Yings on PTS.

So, if you can do so much wrong with her, I'm not entirely sure if she's still THAT easy to play as everyone makes it out to be. You can EASILY screw your entire team over with the places you put your illusions, the frequency in which you use Shatter and the aforementioned stuff also factors into her overall effectiveness.

I've had a Ying that put her illusions so they could impossibly heal anyone standing on the objective, the entire round.

Instead of staying close to the FLs where she can hide with ease, she waited in the back line to give their flanks some easy kills.

It is among the most infuriating things I've ever seen in Competitive.

Now, granted, even without the nerfs I still would've been screwed as much as I have been, but still. Saying she's brain dead easy to play is pure ignorance.

Peinzius
05-27-2017, 10:23 AM
Because ying is brain dead easy to play yet she can out heal a mal dumba who has to focus and actually manage cooldowns, aim, and get well timed stuns. The nerfs make sense, sorry to all you weebs out there.

LOL. I play both Ying and Mal'damba, and I consider myself a healer main. First of all, Ying mains aren't "weebs" so calm down with the insult for no reason. Ying can by no means outheal a Mal'damba, I rarely see it happen. Mal'damba doesn't have to manage cooldowns more than Ying, and I'd say Ying is even more reliant on managing them. You need to always have Dimensional Link ready, and using it at the right time, being able to use it effectively, and knowing where you always end up is very difficult to master. Mal'damba can just always spam right click, because it has such a short cooldown.

Mal'damba is definitely the hardest healer in the game, no doubt about that. Just because Ying's mastery comes with game sense rather than aim, doesn't mean she is really easy. Sitting back and spamming your illusions is a surefire way to throw the game.

GermanGarbage
05-27-2017, 10:45 AM
Just because Ying's mastery comes with game sense rather than aim, doesn't mean she is really easy.

Absolutely correct. People should learn the difference between mechanical skill and skill in the sense of game sense.

Valkure
05-29-2017, 02:52 AM
Still, in my latest games, I've really felt the nerf. I didn't think I could notice it, while playing, but I've verified it has a strong impact on the game. I am sad to say that Ying has strong disadvantage if compared to Seris.

GermanGarbage
05-29-2017, 04:07 AM
Still, in my latest games, I've really felt the nerf. I didn't think I could notice it, while playing, but I've verified it has a strong impact on the game. I am sad to say that Ying has strong disadvantage if compared to Seris.

They nerfed her too much, I've given up (coming from a Ying main).

Now I'm only playing Mal'Damba or Seris, occasionally Pip (when I know I can use the high ground to my advantage).

Valkure
05-29-2017, 04:22 AM
They nerfed her too much, I've given up (coming from a Ying main).
Now I'm only playing Mal'Damba or Seris, occasionally Pip (when I know I can use the high ground to my advantage).
Yes, same here. I've tried with Seris, but I don't like her play style. Too boring for me: you can go flanking, or you can just press RMB continuously. In the first case, you're not filling your role and the team is dying. In the second case, I just grown sleepy.

GermanGarbage
05-29-2017, 04:30 AM
Yes, same here. I've tried with Seris, but I don't like her play style. Too boring for me: you can go flanking, or you can just press RMB continuously. In the first case, you're not filling your role and the team is dying. In the second case, I just grown sleepy.

I prefer Mal'Damba when I feel like pressuring my enemies. I get right at the point and stun them as much as possible in addition to using Ripened Gourd.

However, when we have a solo tank and I don't feel like being aggressive, I like to sit back with Seris and enjoy my 2s cooldown on my RMB, while preventing as many team mates from dying as possible.

Mal'Damba is more like: Get on the point, be aggressive and make sure you and your tank die as slowly as possible.

But Seris is a real savior.

Ironmonger42
05-29-2017, 10:05 AM
Ying is already a little iffy of a healer. He has good sustained healing, but zero burst healing. Also, she can't control who she heals, so a tank low on HP might not get healed because another ally has a little less HP or is closer to the illusion. I'm not sure if ying should be a damage that happens to do some healing or a healer that happens to do modest damage