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View Full Version : Pip, the flanking dps healer, what is balance?



Crasherino
05-08-2017, 11:20 AM
Can someone please explain to me why pip is a healer that has the ability to flank so well and output the damage of an actual damage character? then while he's doing all of that he has Maeve's mobility (if not better considering his movement speed boost card while using weightless) while being able to slow his enemies to a crawl to never actually miss a shot all.

Is this just me seeing how pip is in the most retarded state of balance ever? or am I just missing something glaringly obvious about how apparently easy he is to kill?

Alfoo
05-08-2017, 11:33 AM
When I opened a thread similar to yours all I got are posts like this "LEARN HOW TO EVADE PIP" "BUY RESILIANCE" "PIP ISN'T OP, HE DOESN'T DEAL TOO MUCH DAMAGE" ...

Nerf the fock outta that overgrown rat.
+1 for this thread.

DaSpyChecker
05-08-2017, 11:58 AM
Pip OP?? haha. Its actually a lot harder to kill with Pip than damagers like Kinessa. His killing ability is not even close to damager's or Flankers & you wont be hitting direct hits normally so the damage drops alot. Look at my Kinessa,Pip hours & see the kill difference.

Pip is not a good flanker, he needs to fire for longer time to kill & against better teams that fails as you need to kill quickly otherwise they get away or kill you.

He can do everything but is not good at anything, he needs help from his team to be effective, just like Grover. If you are getting owned by both, they must be good players.

Peinzius
05-08-2017, 01:53 PM
Pip's healing, in most situations, is awful. There are games where people have gotten 200k + healing with mega potion, but that just isn't the way it normally is, and those stats are misleading.

Catalyst is definitely the best legendary, but with the nerf to side tanks, he really isn't getting that bonus damage too often.

With the whole "resilience" thing, it literally is a stop to him. Pip has not one but two items that oppose him hard, cauterise and resilience. The "you shouldn't need resilience to stop Pip" argument is like complaining Torvald is too tanky because you won't buy wrecker. Isn't really that valid.

Healing is weak, ultimate is great. There's a consequence for having high damage.

HKgamer13
05-08-2017, 02:09 PM
Pip's healing, in most situations, is awful. There are games where people have gotten 200k + healing with mega potion, but that just isn't the way it normally is, and those stats are misleading.

Catalyst is definitely the best legendary, but with the nerf to side tanks, he really isn't getting that bonus damage too often.

With the whole "resilience" thing, it literally is a stop to him. Pip has not one but two items that oppose him hard, cauterise and resilience. The "you shouldn't need resilience to stop Pip" argument is like complaining Torvald is too tanky because you won't buy wrecker. Isn't really that valid.

Healing is weak, ultimate is great. There's a consequence for having high damage.

Yea, you are right, Pip can be easily countered by Cautirize and Resiliance. Resiliance destroys your utility, and Caut destroys your self healing, I can see why people are trying out mobility based sets. Also, the nerf relating to Side tanks I think was nesesary with Caatlyst around, with Side tanks IV, you get Eplosive flask all the time. with the cooldown being 4 seconds and the duration of 2,5 (can be upgraded to 3,5 at max) and a 3 second mark, your target isn't slowed and doesn't suffer the mark of Catalyst for a single second. I think the Side tanks nerf made him ballanced.

Nudgarrobot
05-08-2017, 02:19 PM
Except Resilience does nothing to Catalyst's damage mark for some reason.
Because Catalyst "Marks enemies hit by your slowing flask for 40% extra damage for 3s" and NOT for the duration of the slow. Meaning that Catalyst has very little counterplay.

The side tanks nerf was a great step, but I honestly feel like they should tie the damage mark to his slow instead of making it separate. You shouldn't need two blue cards to counter a single champion, and Pip's main weakness should be Resilience. No reason that Resilience shouldn't hurt his potential for bonus damage. Even with it wearing off quickly against targets with Res II, you can still hit at least one 840 shot by quick m2m1ing.(In the same way that Big Game Cassie can still get her bonus damage off on a Res III tank by firing her followup shot immediately.) And past that they should be rewarded for properly itemizing against your kit.

Loheim
05-08-2017, 02:46 PM
If they nerf one aspect of him, they have to massively buff another aspect of him. As it stands, he's a pretty good flanker and a pretty mediocre healer. You can't just nerf his healing or flanking ability without making him essentially useless. I'm totally fine with converting him to a healer or a flanker, but don't just cry for nerfs without respecting how underpowered he is as a healer.

Nudgarrobot
05-08-2017, 04:39 PM
If they nerf one aspect of him, they have to massively buff another aspect of him. As it stands, he's a pretty good flanker and a pretty mediocre healer. You can't just nerf his healing or flanking ability without making him essentially useless. I'm totally fine with converting him to a healer or a flanker, but don't just cry for nerfs without respecting how underpowered he is as a healer.

A pip with any level of awareness isn't a bad healer at all. If he's wasting his healing potion on himself (Gift Giver, people.) then he's a bad healer sure. But if he's using it on his team, hitting one person at base, with Gift Giver III, heals for 2280 net. Hitting 3 teammates on point, which isn't a too unrealistic scenario, is 4680 healing, and cooldown reduction with cards. The burst heals from pip aren't bad at all if the Pip has any kind of situational awareness.

I would rather have a pip solo healer than a Seris solo healer, because Seris requires even more situational awareness, and it's single target. :v

Loheim
05-08-2017, 05:10 PM
You assume I talk about a pip with bad situational awareness when you assume ALL of the following:

Pip has good situational awareness,3 people on the point AND line of sight to them AND no one forcing him to move around or hide behind any kind of cover so he will hit all 3 of them with the potion 100% of the time.

If you can have 3 people holding down the point in between your heals, you can win the game with basically any healer at that point.

Healing potion would be WAY better if it had a heal over time component. As it stands you have to time it perfectly every time with line of sight. The cooldown reduction on his healing with cards your referring to ALSO has a 5 second cooldown. You're basically lucky to heal once every 5 seconds. Realistically you're going to look at a heal probably every 8-10 seconds as you're a prime target for the enemy and you want to save your heals for when your allies are low enough to make use of your heal. Now you just have to hope the enemies don't burst them down in the meantime.

You can even just look at the simple math. It's not weird for healers to heal for 600 HP a second. Or you can heal for 2400 HP once every 5 seconds at best.

Ironmonger42
05-08-2017, 05:22 PM
I'm a healer Pip main, and I can say that skilled teams tend to shut me down. He's not OP.

1. He can't output the damage of a Damage champion. However, what he does have is often enough to defeat Skye, Androxus, Lex, and Maeve. This is even without Catalyst. Buck can use Recover and Evie with Reprieve can Ice Block before she dies, as Pip has good damage but no burst. If you think he's too strong, you might be a flank main.

2. His healing is amazing! If you think it's crappy because of cauterize, you make it sound like only Pip is countered by that. There are no supports immune to cauterize.

3. The slow is annoying, yes, but it's why he can defeat flankers. Flankers rely on mobility to avoid getting killed, so Pip wins if your movement ability isn't ready.

4. Pip's ultimate is amazing, but resilience ruins it. Despite that, I've been killed as a chicken with resilience 3 before. I was bursted by multiple enemies. Not sure if they got lucky or they were super coordinated.

5. I can't comment on flanker pips, because I almost never flank as pip. I play him as a back line defender. Flankers almost never get past me.

TopTrainers
05-08-2017, 07:06 PM
pip is not dps. dps is like viktor ruckus tyra ect

MistPeeps
05-08-2017, 07:11 PM
I play pip as a dps+healer, i dont do flanking tho.

THE WEAPON IS FUCKING RAW! ITS RAW!

EvieIV
05-08-2017, 07:40 PM
he is not as good as a dmg dealer is (600 and occasionally 840 dps half the time if catalyst)
he is not a good flank
he is not a good healer

he is fine at whatever legendary you put him to be + the utility he brings. that's about it

BastionTopPlays
05-08-2017, 09:20 PM
"Flanking" Pip and Damage:

Pip's max damage isn't high, but he tends to win fights thanks to higher damage uptime. There's the difference between potential damage and damage in practice.

Being harder to hit and having it easier to hit will easily lead to having much higher hit rates, which results in more damage effectively done. Maeve shares some similarities here, except she bursts much harder while being an easier target herself.


It's also simply higher uptime when you see tanks doing so much damage. Tanks tend to stick in combat much longer, which pads their numbers, but with them being mostly low burst and limited range, they aren't as likely to secure kills.

Things to consider: Effective Damage/Time and sustain capabilities.