PDA

View Full Version : I hate that Inara is not an option in competitive



Hurgya
04-17-2017, 05:00 PM
As you might have noticed, a Paladins championship has ended recently, and there were only 3 champions with a 0% pick rate: Maeve, Inara and Skye of course. The flankers have many problems, but I don't want to talk about those. But I think, Inara has great potential, and with some lore-friendly changes she could be made a top tier front line.

The simple reason, why Inara is missing from the competitive scene, is her inability to protect teammates(primarily the support). She has decent area control (Impasse can be great) and CC (primarily with her ult), so addressing the mentioned problem could make her challenge Makoa.

So here are some ideas, that could make her viable in every tier of skill:
Wardens Field (her 'f') should cripple without a legendary; its deployment range is infinitesimal, so you literally have to walk where you want to put it. This could be compensated with a shortened range, so it would not affect all of the objective area.
Wardens Field should grant slow immunity, and maybe some CC reduction even.
All the bonuses from standing in Wardens Field should affect all your teammates (even the heal and damage reduction from cards). In compensation the affected cards values could be toned down.
The legendary for Wardens Field should make it give CC immunity (if Grohk can have AoE CC immunity, why not the Rock-Lady?)
Earthen Guard (right click) should have an AoE buff for allies. It could be an interesting game mechanism, to make it give 1/3 of the reduction you get around you and your wall, and in your Wardens Field, making it stack, so if you have a full team Hard-Rock party on the point with all the assets, everyone gets the full damage reduction.


With all these positive adjustments Inara would definitely be a strong pick (maybe a bit too strong even?), so we could see her much more in higher skill levels, which (maybe I am alone with this) would make me really glad, because she is by far my favorite Front line considering play style. (And sometimes buying Bulldozer would not be only good for trolling.)

I am open to other suggestions, and really hope, HiRez will make some adjustments on her which actually matters in the long run (a 25% range buff is nice, but it has no use when your healer dies terribly right next to you).

You are also free to disagree with Inara needing a buff, or the community needing Inara in high elo and competitive, but in that case, I have only one thing to say to you:
"YOU ARE NOT WELCOME HERE!!!"

Huttmunkkeeeys
04-17-2017, 06:55 PM
Inara is already pretty good, her only issue is she relies heavily on team comp, whereas other frontliners like Makoa rely very little on team comp making them safer picks.

As for changes, for the most part, her base kit should be left mostly alone as it's good where it's at. the problem is with her legendary cards.

Warder's Field is currently used as a bonus defence to Inara, with the exception of her cripple build being used along side a Makoa. My suggestion for this ability is to either change her Loadstone card(Which I think is useless) so that it increases the range of Warder's field by 10/20/30/40%, or add that effect to her cripple legendary card.

Her Impasse shouldn't readjust it's size when you put it down. Also, it's cooldown should be lowered to 10 seconds and her Impasse legendary should be reworked to change the ability to no longer channel. this would coerce the enemy team into picking up bulldoze to deal with Inara's impasse as with the right build, you can spam it. If the spam is too "OP", they could always increase the cooldown of the legendary up to 12 seconds.

ThatOthell159
04-17-2017, 07:04 PM
You can have a million champions released by next year, but Paladins really only has few core champions that are viable. The others are nothing but mere "side champs".

MarKr
04-17-2017, 08:12 PM
The problem I see with every new champion is that Hi-Rez tries to make them special/original (which is good of course) but it takes time to people to learn how to play these new champions effectivelly or how to effectivelly counter them. Since the new champion brings unknow gameplay element to the game people try at first play them the way they are used to play similar champions but it doesn't work and the Champion is thus "useless" - viz Inara when she was introduced. People tried to use her wall same way as shields of other champions but of course you cannot see/shoot/walk through a wall so this game style didn't work and most people are too lazy to try to find new styles of play to squeeze the maximum out of the champion. Even if it was not the case Huttmunnkkeeeys is right that Inara's performance is very dependent on the team (and with good team work she is extremely good) while other FLs are more independnt this means that if with Inara you get team that doesn't cooperate, you are screwed - you will die often, team will call you noob (and you cannot explain them that the champion needs their support to work), you will lose interest in playing this champion. But the game at its current state doesn't provide much solution to this - comp can be played with only a team of 2 which is hardly enough to squeeze max out of Inara if you and friend play all you can to make her useful while the rest of the team plays different strategy, lack of voice comunication doesn't help much either to cooperate with complete strangers and (this is not the game's fault though) EVERYONE thinks he knows the best how to play and if you try to explain them how Inara works, you're about to get "shut up noob and fuck off". So there are not good conditions to practice playing the champions that require cooperation of the team, so playing more independent champions is easier and gets you better results so why would people play some champ that is harder (almost impossible in current set up) to work right?

RogueRifler
04-17-2017, 08:23 PM
I don't like these ideas because they don't really focus on Inara's uniqueness. Why not do an entire new pass at her Impasse abillity? The wall targeting is messy and has too short of a range. If Inara's wall behaved like Mei's, in terms of targeting and responsiveness, it would be quite useful. Her Warder's field needs to have some range to it. Inara moves like a cripple due to her lack of mobility, she cannot cast Warder's field on people unless they choose to engage her. This makes Warder's field no better than a 20% damage reduction field with the right card.

Hurgya
04-18-2017, 05:47 AM
To make it clear, I did not say, she is useless, and I do not think she is, but apparently her utilities are not as important in competitive as the other frontlines'.
Fernando also lacks range, and Torvald also lacks a mobility skill, but they were picked, Inara wasn't.
And I don't think, it was because they could not practice a team composition with her, more likely that strategy really does not fit the meta.
She is definitely durable, and with Impasse she is great to constrain enemy movement, but she lacks both protective abilities, and the tools for a quick kill. Makoa has both, Ruckus can kill and has some protection, Fernando and Baric has good shields, and Torvald has an ability called literally protection (not to mention the possible multi-kills with his ult).
Don't misinterpret this, she CAN kill, but it takes time, and utilizes the misposition of enemies, whereas Makoa relies on your ability to land hooks.

With some of these adjustments however, in my opinion a composition with high sustain damages and flankers could survive with her and a secondary support (Grohk or Grover). But then, still you really lack the mobility as a whole team. So basically you can cap the point, if you manage to rush it, but you will never push the payload.

On second thought these buffs would not make her a top tier tank, just OP in camping, which is not really a thing in competitive.

I still think, she deserves some love, but in other forms too (applying some of these would still be nice, just not really solving anything, like the range increase I so arrogantly mocked yesterday), e.g. some more interactions with Impasse, an enemy knockback or something like that.

MarKr
04-18-2017, 11:17 AM
but apparently her utilities are not as important in competitive as the other frontlines'. "apparently"....based on what? The tournament? Just because they did not use her in tournament doesn't necessarily mean that her skills are not as important. There can be tons of reasons - person who tanks in the team simply performs better with other champion, their strategy might be based on something that Inara does not provide and changing learned strategy for something more or less experimental is not a good idea in a tournament etc.


And I don't think, it was because they could not practice a team composition with her, more likely that strategy really does not fit the meta.Isn't it to certain degree the case that meta is what players make it? :D


She is definitely durable, and with Impasse she is great to constrain enemy movement, but she lacks both protective abilities, and the tools for a quick kill. Makoa has both, Ruckus can kill and has some protection, Fernando and Baric has good shields, and Torvald has an ability called literally protection (not to mention the possible multi-kills with his ult).This is the problem I was talking about - people compare what other FLs have and she doesn't but they seldom look at what she has and others don't. Inara has a wall which can be used to separate enemy team and pick off the separated members quickly. Yes, it requires skill on Inara's side to place the wall well, and cooperation of the rest of the team...or at least part of the team - Inara simply needs a pocket healer (I love her paired with Grohk or Grover) and from my experience it is good to have one Damage character (e.g. Tyra or Victor work well) around. This way Inara separates 1-2 players from the rest of their team by a wall and now they are in 3v2 situation where Inara can still provide good damage, Grohk can do enough damage too (+CC slow to make opponents easier to hit for the other two team members) and the Damage champ just does their thing. Also Grohk's/Grover's healing abilities heal Inara's walls and obelisks so opponent doesn't tear down the wall quickly enough. The rest of the team can be flakers who harass the crap out of opponent's team and distract them. This combo/strategy can be extremely strong but also requires lot of team play and good deck builds.

Also you are right, other FLs have shields to protect themselves, Inara has none but she has quite a lot of Damage reduction instead - Rightclick gives you basic 30% DR with a cards standing near Obelisk (Q key) can grant up to +20% extra DR, Legendary adds +20% DR on Right click. When you combine all these together you get for a few seconds 70% DR - that applies to any damage, direct, AoE, Ultimates...Today I played a casual game where in the lobby one of the team picked Grover, I picked Inara and he in the last moment switched to Kinessa and I was left without healing - so I couldn't do much in the game and just started trolling - I placed Obelisk and activated rightclick and used Emote 3 meters away from Ruckus - it took two full Emotes to kill me while having full hit rate (I wasn't moving, in real game he would have missed at least some shots and would definetely not score so many headshots). So Inara has DR instead of shields and it can work well if she has a healer - with this DR she can be under fire from several opponents and still getting more healing than receiving damage :)
Not to mention that shields can be brought down faster with Wrecker while DR cannot be mitigated at all.

Also her wall is in some cases more useful than shields - on Jaguar Falls when I can hear Drogoz starting his Ultimate behind a corner - use wall to block passage - he can't get through and wastes Ulti (Drogoz players are always pissed when I do this :D), in the same way you can block BK's Ulti (has to roll around) Makoa's Ulti (cannot reach you, he is also slow so even if you don't block the passage completely he loses lot of his Ulti time by just going around the wall), Viktor cannot send his Ulti behind the wall (can send it through shields), Torvald cannot shoot you off map with Ulti if there is wall between him and you...


Don't misinterpret this, she CAN kill, but it takes time, and for a reason...can you imagine if with this DR and pocket healer she also had average or above-average damage? Her main role is not to kill stuff, yes, she can help with that but should not concentrate primarily on dealing damage.

But all in all this requires lots of team cooperation, more than you need with strategies that don't involve Inara which is probably why people don't use her in tournaments...and getting this level of team cooperation with random strangers in competitive games is even harder.

Hurgya
04-18-2017, 11:54 AM
As I stated in the title, I am not speaking about casual (or ranked, in which I am not interested with its current state). I usually play with a 3 man party, and play Mal'Damba, but sometimes I go and have fun with Inara. And it is really fun. You are nearly invincible, you can indeed separate enemy team members and kill them yourself slowly, but inevitably (or just get them killed by your mates), and her ult I find extremely satisfying.
My problem is, currently (or at least in the last tournament) she is rotting in the pile of uselessness with Skye, and Maeve, the flankers, who have practically no means of escape. And I hope, you agree with me, that this is a truly shameful situation for our beloved Inara, which cannot be left without words.


(You clearly don't agree with the second part of the sentence, but I needed a good ending line)

MarKr
04-18-2017, 12:54 PM
Even if we talk strictly about tournaments I think there still applies what I wrote - Inara requires way more team cooperation than other FLs. If you manage to pull off such cooperative gameplay, the reward is a strong tactic that is hard to counter and can secure you victory on the other hand tactics that don't include Inara are more forgiving to errors in tactics and at the same time can secure you victory too. So in the end it boils down to what is easier and we can agree based on what was said here that other FL are easier even if just because they are more independent.

I do agree it is a shame that she is not used that much but I just don't think she is less used because her skills are bad or poorly set.

SirGontar
04-18-2017, 01:35 PM
In my opinion her biggest problem is impass. At the pro era -I think- it is simply impermissible to block the sight of her own and teammates with it and at the other hand impass -at that level- can be effectively used only in a very few maps and only a few place.

HiRez makes maps where impass can be used with a very good efficiency - there is at least one test map which is very good for her (don't remember map's name).

+ she has too long cooldowns
+ warder's field should be able to placed in a distance
+ her ult should be stronger or change completly (Her ult is almost the same as a simply Bomb King grumpy bomb. This is far too weak to be an ult.)

epicpatato
04-19-2017, 04:57 AM
i really like to play with inara but i agree she relies very heavy on the team.

improving wardens field sounds not that bad to me, it gives better close combat survival chances.
her health is pretty good right now. her damage isn't that good but they should be very carefull to buff that because of the range..

played a few times against reckus and that isn't much fun. (except when he uses his ult and you place your wall blocking everything he can do.

i think her ult should effect a bigger area. i don't find it to have much value right now..
i know it is supposed to rely on the team, but bomb kings grumpy bomb does almost just as much and more times and faster.

she still is okay to play though.

Rhaenxys
04-19-2017, 05:37 AM
I still have the feeling of an underwhelming sustain, with ruckus i have vertical mobility, 2 cards which scale at 50 heal per second at each level and 100 hp when doing advance (x3 with aerial assault) plus a 3000 hp shield to absorb some kinessa/sha lin shots or tyra/skye damage based on health, so even i they look OP or to extreme i suggest some changes:

- Earthen guard gives 50% damage reduction by default, mother`s grace replaced to 50% lifesteal during earthen guard, initially Inara would have a regular card who grants you 30% lifesteal during earthen guard, so a stronger version in the form of a legendary card would be a good option, ruckus can have up to 60% DR and for your teammates, this would make Inara a bit different than him, rewarding players with good aim.

- Impasse should be changed to act like every deployable ability and the cooldown would start instantly when used, the cooldown is 15 seconds and last 5 sec, instead of lowering the cooldown replace impasse legendary card with an additional charge for impasse.

- Warden`s field grants the buffs to teammates inside the radius, i.e the 20% damage reduction and the heals (which scale at a very low amount so its kinda balanced), slighty increase the radius, i would say like skye smoke bomb without cards.

- For that long casting time and being an ultimate, the damage of her ult should be at 800.

SnakeNox
04-19-2017, 06:43 AM
I never feel like I should buy Bulldozer to counter her. Shooting the wall or her warden is a waste of time. And as Inara, increasing Impasse's Health is just pointless, who even shoots that thing, it blocks nothing.

Why not Increase the duration by like, a LOT? Like increasing Impasse and Wardens field by 8 seconds. Let Impasse be an annoying wall in the opponents face, and Wardens field work like a healing station/roadblock for enemies. If they want them gone, they have to destroy them. But of course, if this makes Inara a bit too powerful, I would withdraw some of the recent changes (like her effective range or some card buff and such)

WarMongger
04-19-2017, 10:04 AM
inara have the worst skills in game she need to get close to get a killer dmg she suck on long range she need a change

BurmaJones
04-19-2017, 10:06 AM
If you could cast Warder's Field with more range, and if her Earthen Guard also affected nearby teammates, she'd be a good frontline.

SeanOTRS
04-19-2017, 10:19 AM
There are some very strong ways to play her:
https://redd.it/65jnjr

Essentially, she can be used on hyper offense to great avail with an appropriate team comp. While I agree that she needs to be buffed, it is not that strong a buff that she needs. A cooldown reduction and/or giving her main weapon some kind of slow would be more than enough to put her in meta. I don't want her in meta tho. Cause then I won't be able to play her. She is definitely playable, as I had a 22 win streak (in competitive only) with her at one point.

MetroidFTW
04-19-2017, 10:32 AM
In my opinion making the healing cards of EG and WF (wich is a deployable and can be destroyed) scaling at 50/100/150/200 like the rest of the Tanks should be a very good step to compensate her reduced mobility, also a bigger range of WF in combination with the 20% Damage Reduction affecting Teammates will add that needed "TeamSupport" like Ruckus RF, Torvalds Protection, etc.

ukchivas
04-19-2017, 11:26 AM
Inara has always been unplayable since release. Her ult is useless. HiRez should have delayed Inara release date. Really need reworking.

ukchivas
04-19-2017, 11:28 AM
inara have the worst skills in game she need to get close to get a killer dmg she suck on long range she need a change

^^^This, she could have been my tank and I could have been playing 24/7 with Inara but...

MarKr
04-19-2017, 02:38 PM
improving wardens field sounds not that bad to me, it gives better close combat survival chances.
her health is pretty good right now. her damage isn't that good but they should be very carefull to buff that because of the range..When they buff anything about her, it will affect her more than it might seem. At the moment, when you have a build to maximize her Damage Reduction, it gives 50% DR from right-click and another +20% when she is in radius of her Obelisk (needs cards in deck for this). That is 70% DR. If the obelisk gets bigger AoE, that means she can move around more freely while keeping this huge DR. If you consider that you still have the option to take Haven or Blast Shield, with lvl3 it leaves you with 91% DR against either direct attacks or area attacks which is huge...you can just sit on point, scratch your ass with your staff, people shooting at you and you be like "haha, that tickles".


i think her ult should effect a bigger area. i don't find it to have much value right now..When players are clustered around objective you can often stun 3 opponents with single hit. Simply knowing that Inara can do this often makes opponent team to be more spread which has its uses too. If they don't keep away you can stun them all and if your team reacts quickly (which is again why she needs good team cooperation) they can deliver lots of damage to the stunned players.


i know it is supposed to rely on the team, but bomb kings grumpy bomb does almost just as much and more times and faster.Grumpy bomb does not go through shields (can destroy them but the shield still deflects the damage and stun) while Inara's Ultimate goes through shields which is bad news for any FL.


I still have the feeling of an underwhelming sustain, with ruckus i have vertical mobility, 2 cards which scale at 50 heal per second at each level and 100 hp when doing advance (x3 with aerial assault) plus a 3000 hp shield to absorb some kinessa/sha lin shots or tyra/skye damage based on healthI respectfully disagree here. You basically say "Ruckus has this, but Inara doesn't, so let's buff Inara." but completely Ignore the other way - Inara has something that Ruckus doesn't. In the same way you could say "Ruckus has (what you posted) but Makoa has no vertical mobility, his healing self-sustain doesn't heal for as much as Ruckus', Makoa has shield but (unless with Legendary) cannot attack while using shield + his shield lasts shorter time than Ruckus' he also has slower RoF, lower range and lower overall damage output." So should Makoa be buffed just because Ruckus has advantage in some areas?


Why not Increase the duration by like, a LOT? Like increasing Impasse and Wardens field by 8 seconds. Let Impasse be an annoying wall in the opponents face, and Wardens field work like a healing station/roadblock for enemies.If the Wall lasts longer then I would suggest to give Inara some option to remove the wall when she wants - because it blocks the advance of your team too. I don't feel like the obelisk should be a healing station for Inara - as I already said Obelisk can boost her DR by 20% and if she stacks the 70% DR and also gets sufficiently healed by the Obelisk (which would also last longer as you suggest) she will be unkillable even in 2v1 situations (Unless Drogoz uses his Ult ot Torvald shoots you off the map).


inara have the worst skills in game she need to get close to get a killer dmg she suck on long range she need a changeAgain I cannot agree with this - she has the DR, if she gets better damage and range, good luck killing her...especially when she has a pocket healer who can heal her faster then the opponent is capable of inflicting damage on her. Why do you want her to have "killer damage" anyway? She is FL, and which FL has very good damage while also this huge survivability?


If you could cast Warder's Field with more range, and if her Earthen Guard also affected nearby teammates, she'd be a good frontline.I have a feeling that Warden's Field is meant to be for her a protection against quick Flankers - they do tons of damage up close and are highly mobile which can be pain in the ass for slow Inara. If there is flanker near, you ctivate Obelisk which slows down flankers and you have better chance hitting them...the main idea of the ability is not to deal damage or be used offensively...just my opinion, I of course cannot know how HiRez intended it.

I really don't mind if she gets some buff...for me it will only mean that playing her will be easier and I will kick more ass with her. But I feel I need to play devil's advocate here because buffs have potential for making her OP...most of the suggestions for buffing would make her less dependent on team (making her more similar to the way other FL work) but that means that when you run into a team who will use the team-play and Inara's strong sides to the fullest, she will be way too strong...just because people don't use that NOW doesn't mean they won't figure it out in the future :).