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View Full Version : Seris Is Pretty Weak...



Jusey1
04-15-2017, 10:18 AM
Well, kinda. Let me explain. Seris, by herself, seems fine and pretty strong even, especially for casual people. However, if we're gonna balance the characters as a whole for high competitive play... I don't see Seris ever being picked up or at least rarely because most of the things she can do... Mal'Damba literally just does it better. What I mean by this, a Great Mal'Damba will always be a better support than a Great Seris (However, an Average Seris will be better than an Average Mal'Damba).

Let me go over all of this...

Supports have two major things to fulfill. Healing, and crowd control. Now, the cc doesn't necessary have to be cc effects, like stuns, but just that the champion can cause crowd control events. Each support champion is balanced by how much cc and healing they do, and how they can be countered. For example, Ying has no cc but has the highest healing rate in the game and can do it easily without needing to aim. She's the pure healer, it's just you're not gonna have any proper cc elements while Pip is a much more cc heavy character and should only be healing if he's the only support, otherwise. His cc is more important... And so on.

Seris though? Discounting her legendary, she really only have two forms of cc. Her ultimate being the obvious one and the other is generally her basic attack which should discourage grouping up (Seris has a pretty low dps out of all of the supports in a 1v1 situation but she can do insane damage if the enemy team is all together). With her legendary though, she has a pretty hard to do stun. It works well but you also gotta remember that you need to stack 4 orbs on someone to do the stun and shields can absorb your attacks... So, you might have a hard time getting stuns off a lot, and should I even mention how slow her projectiles are?

As for her healing... Now, the description of her heal seems off since the heal itself seems to last a bit longer but I'm gonna go by the description, just in case if it was a PTS glitch. She does a very powerful channel heal which heals 1,000 per second but it only lasts 2 seconds, and you have a 5 second cooldown on this ability by default. Now, I'm gonna assume you're using the cooldown reduction card for her so it is 3 seconds. This means, you heal for 2 seconds and do a total of 2,000 healing then have to wait for 3 seconds to do the same thing again. This should total up with 4,000 healing done in 10 seconds... This is actually pretty low...

Now, you're probably thinking "How is it low?" Well, in that same amount of time... Stock Mal'Damba can do a total of 5,500 healing between his right click and gourd on a single target, and Stock Ying can do a total of 7,000 (3,500 per clone) but this is assuming both clones are gonna be healing the same target, which isn't very likely but still possible... Those two characters provide constant healing/sustain, and I'm gonna just focus on the Mal'Damba now on since he is the better alternative to Seris here. Ying is just a pure healer, so she has high healing for a good reason, which isn't fair for Seris.

So, Mal'Damba can outheal a Seris very easily if he doesn't miss, which is why I said that one thing earlier. A really good or great Mal'Damba will rarely, if ever, miss while your average one probably does miss pretty often, so at high skill ceilings... Mal will just heal more because they are that good. Seris isn't a good alternative choice unless you're a bad Mal'Damba.

BUT Mal'Damba also provides much better, and easier, damage and crowd control than Seris... However, it is only single target (but a good enemy team would make it hard for Seris to hit multiple people to begin with anyways). This allows for better teamwork too anyways where you work together to target down one person. For example, Makoa could hook them in and boom. Insta-stun from Mal'Damba and then focused damage, and even without the teamwork elements. It's not that difficult to stun people as Mal and on top of that, if you're using the gourd card, then your gourd can also provide slows as an added bonus. The only difference is the ultimates. Do you want a good set-up ultimate to work with that Skye or a point denier ultimate? I've saved games because I used Mal's ultimate on the payload at the last second for "Successful Defense" or a "successful push", which is one of the best usage for the ultimate but Seris's ultimate is pretty useless in that situation. Actually, it's bad in most unless you got a teammate with an ultimate ready to work with you (like Skye Bomb or Bomb King)...

So, what I'm saying here... Seris isn't going to change competitive meta very much. Mal'Damba does everything better than her when it comes to cc and healing. However, Seris provides two good things that Mal does not to the player who is playing her. The first thing is her ultimate, which like I said, is a good set-up one. The other is her self-sustain. Seris is probably the hardest support to kill right now due to her very tanky and self sustain nature. She's really good at it. (Mal is also good at self-sustain but not anywhere close to Seris)...

So... Ye'h. Seris is pretty weak for the most part simply because Mal'Damba just out-classes her in almost every single category. I only see Seris, in the long run, being used mostly in casual and low to mid-tier competitive matchmaking range... I don't see her becoming a big part in the meta except for her ultimate (again, great ultimate to use alongside with others).

BUT... I might be wrong here. What are your guys' thought? You think I'm wrong here or do I have a point?

On a side note. I do love Seris. She is an amazing character, very fun, and her art is amazing. I'm just speaking my mind about her, to hopefully improve her in the future as a character.

EvieIV
04-15-2017, 10:33 AM
alright i bothered to read and i say i understand your point, but seris is balanced. mal'damba gourd + mending spirits are 2 abilities, so of course that heals more than seris does, but seris has way more survivability than mal'damba.

whereas mal'damba can only slither away and hope for the best seris can become completely immune and invisible aswell as healing herself pretty efficiently

you can't compare those two because in the high competitive level of play you're speaking about, mal'damba is going to be the main focus and be killed before he really heals someone whereas you can't focus seris down

compared to him Seris brings 80% of heals, more efficient damage, less cc, easier ultimate to combo with but harder to actually pull people in, and way more survivability that prevents her from being such an easy kill like mal'damba is.

mal'damba can however save himself with the snake stun yes but that has its tradeoffs

EinMeister
04-15-2017, 10:44 AM
I think that Seris will do a good job.

Nudgarrobot
04-15-2017, 11:40 AM
I disagree with the inability to focus her down. Taking damage during the cast interrupts her F, so if you can keep aggro on her she can't use it very easily.
On the other hand, snipers rip her up because she has no instant tech to dodge a shot and no way to combat at long range if she hasn't been preemptively spamming the angle the sniper is shooting from.

She's survivable, but only if excellently positioned. And I like that quite a bit.

EvieIV
04-15-2017, 12:08 PM
I disagree with the inability to focus her down. Taking damage during the cast interrupts her F, so if you can keep aggro on her she can't use it very easily.
On the other hand, snipers rip her up because she has no instant tech to dodge a shot and no way to combat at long range if she hasn't been preemptively spamming the angle the sniper is shooting from.

She's survivable, but only if excellently positioned. And I like that quite a bit.

every map has a way to get behind cover and use the f

Nudgarrobot
04-15-2017, 12:25 PM
every map has a way to get behind cover and use the f

Not if you're being actually focused though. You could say the same thing about the out of combat regen, to be fair.

By that token anyway I suspect Skye will actually counter Seris. Poison bolts will basically cripple her.

EvieIV
04-15-2017, 12:48 PM
Not if you're being actually focused though. You could say the same thing about the out of combat regen, to be fair.

By that token anyway I suspect Skye will actually counter Seris. Poison bolts will basically cripple her.

i mean shields exist aswell. out of combat regen takes way more time

RogueRifler
04-15-2017, 01:52 PM
Why do people post bs theory crafting threads with no actual practical evaluation?

Jusey1
04-15-2017, 03:12 PM
Why do people post bs theory crafting threads with no actual practical evaluation?

I have no idea what you mean by that. I provided my thoughts, my mathematically work, and estimates. How about instead of being immature and saying random stuffs, how about you join the discussion and provide your own feedback like some others has done? This applies to the people saying stuff like "Too long, didn't read".

If the post is too long, then why are you on the forums in the first place to discuss about balances and other things? Especially for a game which has many characters and many ways of playing those characters... There's a lot to go through.


whereas mal'damba can only slither away and hope for the best

Yes, I generally do agree that Seris is harder to focus down, if played well with the right positioning (which is good) but I do wanna say... How a Mal'Damba is played is very important on his own survival, since a good Mal can have a good amount of health while also high resistances to all damage + gourd to heal himself (and his allies), as well as other cards to heal himself with... Mal'Damba can be a very tanky support, more tanky than Seris. It's just Seris has an instant heal button and her movement ability which makes her much harder to kill. Mal can still die if you shoot him enough, but Seris can completely heal from it in one go or get away with a very powerful movement ability.

Basically, they're both hard to kill with the right set-ups. Just, one is definably a better and easier way than the other, which is something that I said about in my original post about Seris... The big reason to have Seris is her self sustain and ultimate. Everything else is pretty good but not as good as the alternative, which is why I don't think Seris may not get picked that much in high comp, which is my purpose of her being "weak". She isn't a weak character and I personally find her to be pretty balanced, but I do feel like she needs a little nudge to have more of a bigger reason to use her over Ying, or Mal as the main support.

Again though, this is just my thoughts after playing as her.

Nudgarrobot
04-15-2017, 03:17 PM
Her basic is incredibly good, and is another reason to take her. She can spam chokes and is a heavy counter to deathballing teams. (Though she does support deathballs very well when she's in them herself)

Maldamba can't spam chokes. He can't zone deny. Seris can, in spades.

Jusey1
04-15-2017, 04:57 PM
Her basic is incredibly good, and is another reason to take her. She can spam chokes and is a heavy counter to deathballing teams. (Though she does support deathballs very well when she's in them herself)

Maldamba can't spam chokes. He can't zone deny. Seris can, in spades.

Which is true, I can agree with that but most maps are balanced in a way where those kind of plans only works for so long, since the enemy team will find ways around it. For example, Frozen Guard? This isn't going to work very well since that map is very open in general and there is a lot of space... Not that difficult to avoid Seris's basic attack in that situation unless they're all on the point.

Like I said, I see the strengths in having her and she'll be good for them. However, the main reason why you need a support is where I see her being weak at and I feel like this is a major drawback for her character. Which may turn her more into an off-support than a main-support, and I feel like she should be more of a main support... Since, honestly, the only main supports we truly have are Ying and Mal'Damba (Healer Pip can be main support but that isn't the most effective way of using him, sadly for me but that won't stop me from using him as such).

~Edit~

Thinking about it... If Seris ends up being used as an off-support more so than main, then I have a strong feeling that she will knock Grohk off completely from high comp. Poor Grohk, he already has enough problems (again, my thought and opinion).

RogueRifler
04-15-2017, 05:09 PM
I have no idea what you mean by that. I provided my thoughts, my mathematically work, and estimates. How about instead of being immature and saying random stuffs, how about you join the discussion and provide your own feedback like some others has done? This applies to the people saying stuff like "Too long, didn't read".

If the post is too long, then why are you on the forums in the first place to discuss about balances and other things? Especially for a game which has many characters and many ways of playing those characters... There's a lot to go through.


You provided a deluge of words that superficially made a 1-1 comparison to Mal Damba looking at each ability in isolation. How is that remotely a valid analysis? What's possible with all of her cards? What combinations of abilities with other champions are effective and can be pulled off consistently? Have you had success playing her? What are the healing stats people are putting up with her compared to the entrenched, main healers? It seems like you answered none of this and just decided to post click bait justified by a vomitorium of words. I have no clue whether or not Seris is good. We'll find out in a week or so when the community as a collective tries a whole lot of things out to make her work. Claiming you can make that determination within 24hrs of release is absolutely hilarious.

Jusey1
04-15-2017, 06:09 PM
You provided a deluge of words that superficially made a 1-1 comparison to Mal Damba looking at each ability in isolation. How is that remotely a valid analysis? What's possible with all of her cards? What combinations of abilities with other champions are effective and can be pulled off consistently? Have you had success playing her? What are the healing stats people are putting up with her compared to the entrenched, main healers? It seems like you answered none of this and just decided to post click bait justified by a vomitorium of words. I have no clue whether or not Seris is good. We'll find out in a week or so when the community as a collective tries a whole lot of things out to make her work. Claiming you can make that determination within 24hrs of release is absolutely hilarious.

I'm sorry that I'm just sharing my thoughts after playing Seris for a few hours in the PTS and speaking about my thoughts of her being a main support, like Hi-Rez said in the stream, and... Yes, I do not see her being a good main support pick in high comp, or at least be used as such. She is most likely gonna become an off-support and this is again what I think and am guessing at what is going to happen, speaking about my opinions of who can provide the main support role better, and other things based on my games thus far.

I know it is a little too early for true answers, and I never said that I am in any sense of the truth word, but rather speaking about my thoughts on a character who I wanna see become a new main pick, cause we really need a new main pick for support, at least for high comp. (Healer Pip, Grohk, and Grover can be main supports at times, but they aren't as effective as main support or can be more effective as off-supports).

Is there truly something wrong with just first impressions of an update? I don't really see anything wrong about that myself. Sometimes first impressions can be true or not. I'm not saying I'm in the right or anything, just that I have an opinion and providing details about it, and such.

If you cannot seriously chat about the topic at hand but rather claim that my post is "click bait" or some other stupid crap, then why post in the first place? Wouldn't this just be a waste of your time if you aren't gonna be willing enough to take part into the discussion?

RogueRifler
04-15-2017, 06:40 PM
I'm sorry that I'm just sharing my thoughts after playing Seris for a few hours in the PTS and speaking about my thoughts of her being a main support, like Hi-Rez said in the stream, and... Yes, I do not see her being a good main support pick in high comp, or at least be used as such. She is most likely gonna become an off-support and this is again what I think and am guessing at what is going to happen, speaking about my opinions of who can provide the main support role better, and other things based on my games thus far.

I know it is a little too early for true answers, and I never said that I am in any sense of the truth word, but rather speaking about my thoughts on a character who I wanna see become a new main pick, cause we really need a new main pick for support, at least for high comp. (Healer Pip, Grohk, and Grover can be main supports at times, but they aren't as effective as main support or can be more effective as off-supports).

Is there truly something wrong with just first impressions of an update? I don't really see anything wrong about that myself. Sometimes first impressions can be true or not. I'm not saying I'm in the right or anything, just that I have an opinion and providing details about it, and such.

If you cannot seriously chat about the topic at hand but rather claim that my post is "click bait" or some other stupid crap, then why post in the first place? Wouldn't this just be a waste of your time if you aren't gonna be willing enough to take part into the discussion?

The OP has a strong claim and makes an attempt to validate said claim, with copious verbosity might I add, with no actual in game analysis present. There's a difference in voicing first impressions with actual in game impressions and littering the forums with the standard "X is OP," "X is UP" threads supported by shaky theoretical analysis at best. I called it click bait because you literally made a thread with the title "Seris Is Pretty Weak.." within 24hr of the release of Seris on the PTS servers. I am tired of exercises of empty rhetoric that periodical pop up on the forums. Your OP seemed to be the most egregious example in recent memory for its timing and its audacious abundance of words. Hence my critique.

Jusey1
04-15-2017, 07:22 PM
The OP has a strong claim and makes an attempt to validate said claim, with copious verbosity might I add, with no actual in game analysis present. There's a difference in voicing first impressions with actual in game impressions and littering the forums with the standard "X is OP," "X is UP" threads supported by shaky theoretical analysis at best. I called it click bait because you literally made a thread with the title "Seris Is Pretty Weak.." within 24hr of the release of Seris on the PTS servers. I am tired of exercises of empty rhetoric that periodical pop up on the forums. Your OP seemed to be the most egregious example in recent memory for its timing and its ample abundance of words. Hence my critique.

Because that is just how I presented myself in the original post, though I do not see why I truly need to present a lot of my gameplay information. I don't necessary track my gameplay data that much but from my gameplay experiences, Seris is weak as a main support, which is how she was portrayed as. Hi-Rez themselves said that they think that Seris is gonna break up the current Mal/Ying meta in high comp and become more of a 3rd option as a main support, where I really don't see that happening. I provide my evidence of how much weaker she is when compared with the current main support meta while also making a few other points, and I simply do not see her as a main support because of this evidence.

I also has gotten more experience and I actually see her becoming more of a strong off-support, than a main support, which won't do much to the meta except possibly kick Grohk completely off of it (as in, Grohk probably will not be pick when they can just have Seris that role), which is something else I do not want to see.

So, based on my first expressions with her and the gameplay information about her in-game... I concluded this opinion and posted my thoughts accordingly, and then asked for other people's thoughts as possible hopes to start some conversation about her, and maybe get some ideas, but it doesn't look like much people really wanna do that, and instead I'm having this conversation with you.

If I can, I would just delete this thread as a whole since it doesn't matter anymore at this rate.

dreadz211
04-15-2017, 10:14 PM
I think her LMB serves as a "crowd control". Her LMB for me is actually big, you can spray it all around the field that might use as a cover for your damagers to attack and it kinda discourages the opponents to peak and shoot because you cant see with all the LMB spams around your screen.

Thats all. Cant get a full feedback about seris being weak, it is still too early.

RogueRifler
04-16-2017, 01:03 AM
@dreadz211
You tried a loadout with Spirit Leech III+, Soul Forge II+, and Ebon Dynamo I+? You never stop firing and your healing is your reload. There's some interesting combo potential there especially with Bane, to immediately reset Restore Soul to really do some real burst healing.

Tangtaizong
04-16-2017, 02:50 AM
You are here!

Monkey

Wtf why people call me monkey? I am a fucking Emperor of motherfucking Tang dynasty XD

Anyway, support is not always about healing. Like in DOTA, support is the one that buy wards, courier, etc. But support is also have a kit that help teammate to initiate or disable a single opponent. Seris fit into this category because:

1. She can stun her opponent (with legendary), have low attack damage but great at zoning enemy since her attack projectile phases enemies
2. Her ult is a great initiation tools, but she can't finish her opponents without her team assist

EvieIV
04-16-2017, 06:30 AM
I'm sorry that I'm just sharing my thoughts after playing Seris for a few hours in the PTS and speaking about my thoughts of her being a main support, like Hi-Rez said in the stream, and... Yes, I do not see her being a good main support pick in high comp, or at least be used as such. She is most likely gonna become an off-support and this is again what I think and am guessing at what is going to happen, speaking about my opinions of who can provide the main support role better, and other things based on my games thus far.

I know it is a little too early for true answers, and I never said that I am in any sense of the truth word, but rather speaking about my thoughts on a character who I wanna see become a new main pick, cause we really need a new main pick for support, at least for high comp. (Healer Pip, Grohk, and Grover can be main supports at times, but they aren't as effective as main support or can be more effective as off-supports).

Is there truly something wrong with just first impressions of an update? I don't really see anything wrong about that myself. Sometimes first impressions can be true or not. I'm not saying I'm in the right or anything, just that I have an opinion and providing details about it, and such.

If you cannot seriously chat about the topic at hand but rather claim that my post is "click bait" or some other stupid crap, then why post in the first place? Wouldn't this just be a waste of your time if you aren't gonna be willing enough to take part into the discussion?

i do see myself using seris as main support however. when i play m'd im a bit forced to get the mending spirits card so that i can have some sort of self heal while fitting my playstyle of supporting players who are far away from me. Seris seems to do what she needs to do. strong single target heal that's up quite often and a way to sustain herself in battle aswell as being a threat to groups