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GermanGarbage
03-29-2017, 10:48 AM
After having a hard time learning to use her, I main Ying in Competitive and I consider her to be the best healer in Paladins.
Why? That's fairly obvious: She can heal more than any other healer. Admittedly, that comes at the cost of damage output. But a healer's job is not to deal damage but instead, to make sure that the tanks stay alive and that damage dealers don't have to retreat for an eternity before they can get back into the fight.
And in that regard, nobody can beat Ying.
The only problem with that is that people, even in Competitive, tend to choose other healers (even when they have the first turn in picking champions), which wastes a team slot.
Now, it's nothing new that the player base in Competitive has too many trash players who make selfish picks with no remorse and it's also not the topic of this thread.
However, what I want to point out is that she has absolutely no competitor in healing output.
So when the enemy team has someone who gets to pick Ying before me, I'm kind of left like "Which champion do I pick now?". It's not to say that I couldn't play other champions and still perform well (Tyra is one hell of a beast (pun intended)). But I'd like to see a Support champion that is on equal footing with Ying. He/she mustn't play like her but needs to be able to put out the same amount of healing. You can achieve that by altering the stats of the other champions, I don't want to suggest you should create a new one as that takes up the ressources required to fix this game (I'm not digressing into that topic here).

CandySuxxx
03-29-2017, 10:55 AM
There is damba. Why dude?

RogueRifler
03-29-2017, 11:01 AM
At the end of the day, Ying brings healing and damage. That's it. All the other supports bring some nutty CC, some have crazier damage, and they all heal too. When facing a Ying, the other team has to buy Cauterize, and then you're a subpar damage dealer. Against the other supports people have to buy Cauterize and choose give up on damage reduction if they want to avoid the CC. She was only first pick material in ob44 because you almost always won the first point fight given how broken Lifelike was.

GermanGarbage
03-29-2017, 03:38 PM
There is damba. Why dude?

Because he is not match for her, as I've already explained above.

GermanGarbage
03-29-2017, 03:42 PM
At the end of the day, Ying brings healing and damage. That's it. All the other supports bring some nutty CC, some have crazier damage, and they all heal too. When facing a Ying, the other team has to buy Cauterize, and then you're a subpar damage dealer. Against the other supports people have to buy Cauterize and choose give up on damage reduction if they want to avoid the CC. She was only first pick material in ob44 because you almost always won the first point fight given how broken Lifelike was.

Lifelike was never brokenly overpowered. As long as the enemy team had a spark of competence, they would make that first battle on the point a real challenge. And if your team was incompetent enough, even a supposedly overpowered Lifelike wouldn't be able to make up for that.
Trust me, I would know after so many matches with her.

Peinzius
03-29-2017, 03:48 PM
Mal'damba can easily equal or outheal a Ying. Grover, Pip and Grohk can't, but Mal'damba definitely can. It just takes skill, practice and aim.

RogueRifler
03-29-2017, 03:51 PM
Lifelike was never brokenly overpowered. As long as the enemy team had a spark of competence, they would make that first battle on the point a real challenge. And if your team was incompetent enough, even a supposedly overpowered Lifelike wouldn't be able to make up for that.
Trust me, I would know after so many matches with her.

OB44 Lifelike Ying was valued higher than Makoa and Sha Lin in all OB44 tournament drafts. What could be a greater definition of broken?

Peinzius
03-29-2017, 03:59 PM
Lifelike was never brokenly overpowered. As long as the enemy team had a spark of competence, they would make that first battle on the point a real challenge. And if your team was incompetent enough, even a supposedly overpowered Lifelike wouldn't be able to make up for that.
Trust me, I would know after so many matches with her.

lol. dont lie

Huttmunkkeeeys
03-29-2017, 04:15 PM
Both Pip and Grohk can match and possibly out heal Ying. Pip excels at healing double frontline, which is quite common in Competitive. Granted, unlike Ying, it actually takes skill to use Pip's healing effectively, which is why you don't see as many good Pip healers in game. As for Grohk, he is possibly the most powerful healer in the game. The problem with him is that he requires a decent team comp and a competent enough team that knows how to play around Grohks Totem. With the right loadout, you can keep Grohk's totem active indefinitely as long as your team can keep it alive.

Just because Ying is by far one of the easiest healers to use, doesn't mean she's the most powerful.

BurmaJones
03-29-2017, 04:50 PM
Both Pip and Grohk can match and possibly out heal Ying. Pip excels at healing double frontline, which is quite common in Competitive. Granted, unlike Ying, it actually takes skill to use Pip's healing effectively, which is why you don't see as many good Pip healers in game. As for Grohk, he is possibly the most powerful healer in the game. The problem with him is that he requires a decent team comp and a competent enough team that knows how to play around Grohks Totem. With the right loadout, you can keep Grohk's totem active indefinitely as long as your team can keep it alive.

Just because Ying is by far one of the easiest healers to use, doesn't mean she's the most powerful.

That argument goes both ways though. Good players won't let Grohk's team sit on the totem or let it stay up for long.

Ying and Mal'damba are the most common healers in pro games for a reason and it isn't ease of use. They have the most reliable output.

Gisel
03-29-2017, 04:56 PM
Ying and damba are the only "pure" healers IMO.

But i would never trade a good damba for a ying (ult + stun can make a real dif).

Pip can also be a nice pick, saw some very strong pip healers having my back sometimes (rare, but like every champion, can become extremely good in the right hands) ;)

firenzee
03-29-2017, 05:16 PM
The thing about Ying being a great healer is that its easy to heal with her. Take lifelike, have map awareness to place your clones and you're done. She was the last support I've learned to play, and in the second or third match with her I was delivering huge healing numbers even before ob44.

But its a fact Mal'Damba can outheal her if you have a good aim. His healing gourge does some solid healing by itself, and you still have RMB to heal anyone from any distance.

MetaTaro
03-29-2017, 05:34 PM
I agree with what most are saying that she is not unmatched. I've seen games where even a Pip who is focused on heals can get some really impressive numbers at least on par with Ying and no question about Mal Damba being able to match her as well. I don't know if Grover can but he is nice because he has that burst heal which adds value in that it could save someone in a pinch not to mention his ultimate can also really help in a pinch better than Ying's imo.

Ying is great though, obviously my favorite Champion. To me the trick with Ying imo is knowing who to focus your shots on, when to shatter, when to use dimensional link, etc. I have a good win percentage with Ying and I think it's because of the additional utility she can bring to a match if used correctly not just by good heals.

SnowzStormz
03-29-2017, 05:36 PM
The thing that sets ying apart from the other healers imo is cast and forget about healing till u spam another clone. So in between you can focus on helping team with key damage and its easier to stay aware of flanks.
So yea basically she is easier then maldambra

WoodenBox
03-29-2017, 05:47 PM
She is can be killed a lot easier than same damba or grover and in late game you won't heal much because of caut.People often ignore ying because reasons.She dies fast if focused (which you should)

GermanGarbage
03-30-2017, 03:16 AM
She is can be killed a lot easier than same damba or grover and in late game you won't heal much because of caut.People often ignore ying because reasons.She dies fast if focused (which you should)

That is a complete paradox.

GermanGarbage
03-30-2017, 03:19 AM
The thing that sets ying apart from the other healers imo is cast and forget about healing till u spam another clone. So in between you can focus on helping team with key damage and its easier to stay aware of flanks.
So yea basically she is easier then maldambra

Indeed, it's really this "conjure and forget" mentality that makes Ying the best healer IMO. I often pick cauterize with her to help out my team; as her mirror has multiple ticks per shot you can land multiple heal debuffs with only one shot, if aimed precisely.
And if you get Chronos I and have maxed out both the life and duration of your illusions with your cards, you constantly have at least one illusion standing that can heal your allies and yourself.

Tinberz
03-30-2017, 10:14 AM
Mal'damba can put out really good healing too. While an Ying would outheal a Mal'damba if both are playing equally well, Mal'damba makes up for that with his CC so they are on equal footing. Mal'damba also has the added advantage of healing from range.

Just a side note Ying doesn't need Chronos her illusion cooldowns are low enough. Take Morale Boost/Master Riding instead.

GermanGarbage
03-30-2017, 01:42 PM
Mal'damba can put out really good healing too. While an Ying would outheal a Mal'damba if both are playing equally well, Mal'damba makes up for that with his CC so they are on equal footing. Mal'damba also has the added advantage of healing from range.

Just a side note Ying doesn't need Chronos her illusion cooldowns are low enough. Take Morale Boost/Master Riding instead.

That first paragraph was completely obsolete, since it told me nothing new. And it also misses the point of this thread.

With regards to Chronos: I prefer it because sometimes you have enemies that use their brain and destroy the illusions. In that case I'm not patient enough to wait, so I'll always invest the 400 starting credits in Chronos I and then proceed to get/upgrade other items.
It's the reason why my healing adds up to a total of 250,000 in those really long 4-3 matches, whereas a Mal'damba doesn't even reach the first 100,000 under the same circumstances.
Sadly I cannot provide you with battle reports à la Battlefield and I also cannot provide you with screenshots as the Steam version of Paladins doesn't start on my PC anymore since OB 45.

HughMungusWha
03-30-2017, 05:47 PM
So what?
She is exchanging it for damage and CC she is missing comparing to others.
Even her right click sacrifices her heals for aoe damage.

Heals are the easiest ability to counter in the game, and the ying heal is one of the easiest to counter from the other heals.
Destroying deploy and buying Cauterize is enough to counter her entirely.
Thats why is not picked on competitive, too easy to counter her with cooping team.
1 buys Bulldozer so he is few shooting her decoys and the rest cauterize to reduce any healing coming from her.

Btw Grover is better in healing.
Q heals passively 80 hp per second to everyone, applies 1k heal to everyone and 20% damage reduction once every 12 second., this one ability is 160 heal per second alone for each ally if we including active into multiply it at least 4 times and now we have 650heals per second for entire team, while ying heal is 350 or 700 every second to single target.
Making it more realistic, lets say it is 12 second fight, and we having a grover and ying on the each teams.
Ying plants decoy that heals 1750 hp in 5 second before the second decoy will be summoned, at the fifth seconds mark it for the next 7 seconds, both decoys is healing everyone for a total of 4900 hp making it 6 650 hp finally restored.
Grovar healing 4 people at the same time.
First of he is using his Q, healing 4 000 at the begining and continue to heal 4 people passively for 12 seconds making it 3 840, at the 12 second mark grover is using his Q again, healing his team for the next 4 000 hp, finally healing entire team 4 people for 11 840.
And thats not including cdr or damage reduction into the math, since the grovar healing would be much more effective.
Not only a better healer but more reliable as well, harder to counter, and has some CC.

firenzee
03-30-2017, 05:57 PM
That first paragraph was completely obsolete, since it told me nothing new. And it also misses the point of this thread.

With regards to Chronos: I prefer it because sometimes you have enemies that use their brain and destroy the illusions. In that case I'm not patient enough to wait, so I'll always invest the 400 starting credits in Chronos I and then proceed to get/upgrade other items.
It's the reason why my healing adds up to a total of 250,000 in those really long 4-3 matches, whereas a Mal'damba doesn't even reach the first 100,000 under the same circumstances.
Sadly I cannot provide you with battle reports à la Battlefield and I also cannot provide you with screenshots as the Steam version of Paladins doesn't start on my PC anymore since OB 45.

Spring Bloom IV is all you need for Ying's Illusion skill. IMO there is no need to waste credits with Chronos when you could buy Master Riding or Morale Boost instead.

If you are going Lifelike, one clone should always be alive healing both tanks while your cd gets reduced to 3s if the other clone is killed. But when your team has only one tank, Resonance becomes an awesome option for legendary (specially for late game when everyone has Caut II or III). In this case you actually want people to kill ur clones, so they get 500 area damage and you get cd reduced to 3s.

GermanGarbage
03-31-2017, 08:54 AM
So what?
She is exchanging it for damage and CC she is missing comparing to others.
Even her right click sacrifices her heals for aoe damage.

Heals are the easiest ability to counter in the game, and the ying heal is one of the easiest to counter from the other heals.
Destroying deploy and buying Cauterize is enough to counter her entirely.
Thats why is not picked on competitive, too easy to counter her with cooping team.
1 buys Bulldozer so he is few shooting her decoys and the rest cauterize to reduce any healing coming from her.

Btw Grover is better in healing.
Q heals passively 80 hp per second to everyone, applies 1k heal to everyone and 20% damage reduction once every 12 second., this one ability is 160 heal per second alone for each ally if we including active into multiply it at least 4 times and now we have 650heals per second for entire team, while ying heal is 350 or 700 every second to single target.
Making it more realistic, lets say it is 12 second fight, and we having a grover and ying on the each teams.
Ying plants decoy that heals 1750 hp in 5 second before the second decoy will be summoned, at the fifth seconds mark it for the next 7 seconds, both decoys is healing everyone for a total of 4900 hp making it 6 650 hp finally restored.
Grovar healing 4 people at the same time.
First of he is using his Q, healing 4 000 at the begining and continue to heal 4 people passively for 12 seconds making it 3 840, at the 12 second mark grover is using his Q again, healing his team for the next 4 000 hp, finally healing entire team 4 people for 11 840.
And thats not including cdr or damage reduction into the math, since the grovar healing would be much more effective.
Not only a better healer but more reliable as well, harder to counter, and has some CC.

Your math doesn't quite work in field practice. When I play Ying and the enemy team has a Grover, I always outheal that Grover by about 20-40%.

I actually find Grover much easier to counter than Ying. Not only can you dodge his attacks way easier, but he is also a much bigger target. When I play as Tyra, I'll usually get Grover within 5-10 secs down. Use Firebomb, Nade Launcher and buy Cauterize and Grover is no longer any kind of threat.

Ying on the other hand is not only constantly healing people, since your attention will always be drawn to the enemies instead of her illusions, but she's also much smaller and moves a bit faster than Grover, which makes it easy for her to dodge your shots and hide behind/in between the tanks in her team (especially when her team has at least 2 tanks). But she can also counter your Grover just by using Cauterize (and since her primary attack has 5 ticks, you can land 5 healing debuffs on the enemy team with only one click).

Mal'damba and Grohk are no matches in that regard, as the cooldowns of their healing abilities are much longer.
Both Pip and Grover have to defocus the enemy in order to heal and always be aware of the positions and conditions of their Front Line teammates. Pip comes with the advantage that his primary attack can't be countered with Haven but that's pretty much it.

And neither of those can counter Torvald's ult, which you can easily do with Dimensional Link.

LeonGra
03-31-2017, 09:00 AM
I personally counter Ying with Grover (In competitive). I use "Deep Roots" to root her and kill her that way. Yes, i know Grover isn't the best healer but he still heals enough to win, even if there is a Ying on the opposing team. Root her and she is dead as long as your team doesn't sucks and don't target her, but then you can still force her out of the fight.

thegrudge2006
03-31-2017, 11:08 PM
See my thread with Pip best all around healer. Ying is terrible right now, healing wise. Sure, she gives the most sustained healing out of all but 300hp a second ain't gonna save ur ass when you're getting hit by almost 1k every second. A Pip will burst you ,2400 or 3200@rjuvenate, twice every 2-5 seconds, allowing to win that fight. And it can burst you from a mile away, over rooftops and through corners, allowing flankers and forward dmg'ers to keep the momentum going on, going from 10% to full hp, demoralizing their enemy.

thegrudge2006
03-31-2017, 11:10 PM
250k heal with ying ? long matches means cauterize lvl 3 . Can't provide any screenshots ? yeah right, I guess it's obvious why. Cause you prolly hardly ever go above 150k.

GermanGarbage
04-01-2017, 01:33 AM
See my thread with Pip best all around healer. Ying is terrible right now, healing wise. Sure, she gives the most sustained healing out of all but 300hp a second ain't gonna save ur ass when you're getting hit by almost 1k every second. A Pip will burst you ,2400 or 3200@rjuvenate, twice every 2-5 seconds, allowing to win that fight. And it can burst you from a mile away, over rooftops and through corners, allowing flankers and forward dmg'ers to keep the momentum going on, going from 10% to full hp, demoralizing their enemy.

Whilst I don't doubt that, I'm pretty sure that it only works when the player knows exactly when to use Pip's heal. Ying is a lot more forgiving in that you can barely do anything wrong while playing her. Of course you can still make a lot of mistakes when composing her loudout and buying items, but that is a different matter (and you can also do that with Pip).

GermanGarbage
04-01-2017, 01:37 AM
250k heal with ying ? long matches means cauterize lvl 3 . Can't provide any screenshots ? yeah right, I guess it's obvious why. Cause you prolly hardly ever go above 150k.

I admit that this 250k was during a really, really long match where the overtime lasted several minutes.
But it still makes you wonder why Mal'damba didn't have anywhere near as much healing. Maybe the player was just bad. I can do you the favor to look for the match ID in my history but I don't even know if that helps you.

I believe the ID only exists so that you can rewatch a match, but that requires you to have played or spectated the match.

WolfGamez5
04-01-2017, 02:40 AM
Look, my thinking is that all of the healers and their healing abilities are for different situations. Ying provides good sustained healing to all of your teammates, at the cost of not having the best damage and no CC. Mal Damba does this to a lesser degree, being more localized with his gourd and individualized with mending spirits. For this reduced healing, he gained good damage and some of the best CC in the game.

Grover is meant to be a frontline (not the class, the position of battle) healer, as neither Ying nor Damba can be in the frontline for very long, while Grover can with his large health pool. This is reflected in blossom, as it passively heals allies around him and actively provides burst healing and other buffs to allies around him. Grohk works in a similar fashion, with his above average health pool and the utility of ghost walk, except that he proves large amounts of sustained healing in a localized area in his totem.

Lastly there is Pip, who is hands down the hardest to place on the spectrum. He is not a flanker/ damage, but not a pure-blooded healer either. He is a Crisis healer. He plays very much like a flank or damage, equipped with solid damage and hard CC. But when s*** hits the fan and your team is knocking on death's door, you give them a large chunk of healing. He heals you on demand, when you and your team needs it. He is not a bad healer just a different one.

GermanGarbage
04-01-2017, 06:57 AM
Look, my thinking is that all of the healers and their healing abilities are for different situations. Ying provides good sustained healing to all of your teammates, at the cost of not having the best damage and no CC. Mal Damba does this to a lesser degree, being more localized with his gourd and individualized with mending spirits. For this reduced healing, he gained good damage and some of the best CC in the game.

Grover is meant to be a frontline (not the class, the position of battle) healer, as neither Ying nor Damba can be in the frontline for very long, while Grover can with his large health pool. This is reflected in blossom, as it passively heals allies around him and actively provides burst healing and other buffs to allies around him. Grohk works in a similar fashion, with his above average health pool and the utility of ghost walk, except that he proves large amounts of sustained healing in a localized area in his totem.

Lastly there is Pip, who is hands down the hardest to place on the spectrum. He is not a flanker/ damage, but not a pure-blooded healer either. He is a Crisis healer. He plays very much like a flank or damage, equipped with solid damage and hard CC. But when s*** hits the fan and your team is knocking on death's door, you give them a large chunk of healing. He heals you on demand, when you and your team needs it. He is not a bad healer just a different one.

While that is all true, I'd like to have a healer that can put out the same amount of healing as Ying.
I know that the other healers provide advantages that make up for their lack in healing ability. But these advantages don't help them to play their role (as supportive champions) to the same degree as Ying can.

thegrudge2006
04-01-2017, 08:43 AM
It depends on the player. I outheal the enemy Ying almost everygame if my team is not completely noob or afking. Ocasionally I play bad, I get the potion bug, or simply the enemy Ying is much better at support.
But every decent 15+ min games, my healing is 100k or more, on par with every other Ying.
Ying was my favorite support but now Pip . It's much more difficult to heal as a Pip than Ying but I find it much more useful for the team as a whole, if they're not complete noobs. With maxed out area of effect and minimized cooldown, you can heal 3-4 teammates every 2-5 seconds for a full 2400-3200 burst on paper,from a mile away, like on Frog Isle you can throw it from corner and through those wall cracks and stay safe, healing 2-3 teammates at once.
That's usually the case first round or two, until cauterize lvl2.
Now I've seen smart frontliners who retreat ,knowing they got debuffed so I heal team right after they've left battle so they get the full heal.
Others keep pressing like complete douchebags, knowing they have cauterize lvl3 constantly applied then cry why they didn't get healed up.

thegrudge2006
04-01-2017, 05:46 PM
Competitive play. With good teamwork Pip can easely outheal Ying.
http://i67.tinypic.com/2ce4s9i.jpg

ukchivas
04-01-2017, 11:27 PM
Mal'damba can easily equal or outheal a Ying. Grover, Pip and Grohk can't, but Mal'damba definitely can. It just takes skill, practice and aim.
No he can't. You're saying Maldamba can easily equal Ying with "aim and skill" (?) Maldamba can't create multiple Maldambas. How are you getting this conclusion?

ukchivas
04-01-2017, 11:29 PM
Ying is the BEST healer in Paladins, she can provide heal and damage at the same time. She's my main.

GermanGarbage
04-02-2017, 05:39 AM
Competitive play. With good teamwork Pip can easely outheal Ying.
http://i67.tinypic.com/2ce4s9i.jpg

It's not as simple as that. I can't see which loadout Ying used. However, what I can see, is that she died twice as much as you did. That is not a fair comparison. These teams were far from being on equal footing.
Of course you can heal much more when you have much more lifetime in that round.
That right there is terrible, terrible proof for your argument.
Come back when you managed to get that kind of ratio (192,636/87,576 ~ 2.2) in a match where both teams have similar K/D ratios and credit scores.

UndeservedLad
04-02-2017, 06:01 AM
No he can't. You're saying Maldamba can easily equal Ying with "aim and skill" (?) Maldamba can't create multiple Maldambas. How are you getting this conclusion?

What? With good aim, Damba can heal consistently any of his teammates for 280heals/5sec with his RMB alone, which also happens to have a low cooldown of 3 sec. Plus, with Gourd, he can pocket heal his tanks far better than Ying's clones could (because of crap clone AI). Whilst Ying can generally provide global healing better than Damba, Damba can prioritize his healing and pocket/burst heal any ally to full health back, which Ying can't.

You either have never played against or even watched a good Damba, have you? Take a seat and watch any of the matches imbetween D69 and Burrito. Damba and Ying are consistently equal in terms of healing, even during 0B44.

GermanGarbage
04-02-2017, 07:22 AM
What? With good aim, Damba can heal consistently any of his teammates for 280heals/5sec with his RMB alone, which also happens to have a low cooldown of 3 sec. Plus, with Gourd, he can pocket heal his tanks far better than Ying's clones could (because of crap clone AI). Whilst Ying can generally provide global healing better than Damba, Damba can prioritize his healing and pocket/burst heal any ally to full health back, which Ying can't.

You either have never played against or even watched a good Damba, have you? Take a seat and watch any of the matches imbetween D69 and Burrito. Damba and Ying are consistently equal in terms of healing, even during 0B44.

You're speaking of one rare example right here. There are exceptions to every law/rule in the world.

Brandonetwaru
04-02-2017, 11:36 PM
Mal'damba can easily equal or outheal a Ying. Grover, Pip and Grohk can't, but Mal'damba definitely can. It just takes skill, practice and aim.

then you need to check the main pip's how they over healed the yingers

GermanGarbage
04-03-2017, 09:59 AM
then you need to check the main pip's how they over healed the yingers

I recently played Pip with one of the Builds from Paladins Guru because I wanted to try and outheal Ying. After a lot of Competitive rounds I figured that I could outheal ANY healer with Pip - except for Ying.
Maybe I just need more practice (or I need to go up against better teams), but usually Ying has about 5-20% more healing than I.

thegrudge2006
04-03-2017, 11:10 AM
Is not so hard to make a best healing loadout with Pip.
99% of the Pip's I see with mega potion rune, hardly go above 40k and no wonder they suck so much at healing. I look at their loadouts and I call them "the selfish Pip loadout" where there's nothing remotely resembling a dedicated support build. Most cards buff the self heal and survivability,as if it were a flanker.
Here's my full dedicated Pip support build, I made up and have been most succesful with.
http://i66.tinypic.com/20fqp1s.jpg