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DreamC
02-15-2017, 04:43 PM
For a while already I've been noticing that Mal's ulti in many cases does not fear enemies for the whole 2 seconds, but instead for like a fraction or till the first damage, however none of this is explicitly said in the description.
Examples:
https://youtu.be/nRKv6ROCmyk
https://youtu.be/bGgCQGqewJo
His ultimate as well requires line of sight to be effective (not mentioned in the description as well)

DreamC
02-20-2017, 07:32 PM
Well... Up?

DreamC
02-22-2017, 08:43 PM
And up again.

CaoCao777
02-22-2017, 09:01 PM
yeah his ult sucks

... he's cool though

DreamC
04-01-2017, 08:38 AM
Well... the problem is still there (and that's disregarding how frustrating it can be due to the line of sight constraint on it...)
Another example - /replay 96311931 at 7:00 - Fernando is affected by Mal's ultimate for only like half a second (even though he has no CC reductions at all)
Video: https://youtu.be/ppB_ti1Qp8A

DreamC
04-06-2017, 08:59 AM
What a fine bug report, isn't it? Especially when there is no answer to it <_<

NaeChance
04-06-2017, 09:21 AM
I've noticed the same thing. Pretty annoying when u ult them all and u keep thinking u are safe to fight them for next 2 sec but suddenly they just turn around after not even 1 sec.

DreamC
04-08-2017, 08:53 AM
And it's still there.

DreamC
04-13-2017, 09:34 AM
And nothing is changing.

To add to some Damba problems - his Mending Spirits will go into cooldown without healing anyone if you there is a corner of an obstacle between you and your target.

sirREGlNALD
04-13-2017, 10:25 AM
This isn't a bug to my knowledge. There are two reasons this could happen:

1: The card "Resilience" could be in play. This reduces the effect/duration of crowd control, and Mal'Damba's ult is crowd control.

2: If they have been cc'd recently (not sure what the time limit on this is) the effect/duration of further cc is reduced. (So if you fear them right after they've been crippled, stunned, rooted, etc., the fear won't last as long). I think they made this mechanic because stun damba was able to very nearly stun lock the enemy when he first came out lol.

Yugiyo
04-13-2017, 10:31 AM
This isn't a bug to my knowledge. There are two reasons this could happen:

1: The card "Resilience" could be in play. This reduces the effect/duration of crowd control, and Mal'Damba's ult is crowd control.

2: If they have been cc'd recently (not sure what the time limit on this is) the effect/duration of further cc is reduced. (So if you fear them right after they've been crippled, stunned, rooted, etc., the fear won't last as long). I think they made this mechanic because stun damba was able to very nearly stun lock the enemy when he first came out lol.

Oh grohk have a CC immunity legendary

sirREGlNALD
04-13-2017, 10:34 AM
Oh grohk have a CC immunity legendary

Oh yeah that too lol. Plus a handful of ultimates have cc immunity (Fernando, Grohk, Drogoz, Bomb King, Ruckus, etc.)

Yugiyo
04-13-2017, 10:36 AM
Oh yeah that too lol. Plus a handful of ultimates have cc immunity (Fernando, Grohk, Drogoz, Bomb King, Ruckus, etc.)

Oh True

:3

DreamC
04-22-2017, 10:41 AM
This isn't a bug to my knowledge. There are two reasons this could happen:

1: The card "Resilience" could be in play. This reduces the effect/duration of crowd control, and Mal'Damba's ult is crowd control.

2: If they have been cc'd recently (not sure what the time limit on this is) the effect/duration of further cc is reduced. (So if you fear them right after they've been crippled, stunned, rooted, etc., the fear won't last as long). I think they made this mechanic because stun damba was able to very nearly stun lock the enemy when he first came out lol.

Please, have a look at the videos I provided. There you can see that the affected target had no CC diminishing cards or abilities.
About Damba's stun - the only mechanic to my knowledge is that he cannot stun one and the same target more often then once every 3 seconds.
No place states that consecutive CCs reduce their effectiveness.


Oh yeah that too lol. Plus a handful of ultimates have cc immunity (Fernando, Grohk, Drogoz, Bomb King, Ruckus, etc.)

As I stated in the first post - his ultimate affects them, but for a really short time. This has nothing to do with CC immunity.

And all the problems about Mal I mentioned in this thread are still there...

DutchHope
04-22-2017, 06:31 PM
It seems like you're only getting stunned till you get out of range of the ultimate. Which, according to the description of the ultimate, shouldn't be the case.

DreamC
04-22-2017, 08:32 PM
It seems like you're only getting stunned till you get out of range of the ultimate. Which, according to the description of the ultimate, shouldn't be the case.
Hmmm... But testing this in practice - it doesn't look like this is the case.

Bacrown
04-23-2017, 02:55 AM
"Diminishing returns is a mechanic that makes crowd control effects less effective when used on a recently affected target. When a target is first hit by a crowd control effect, they are affected for the entire duration. If they are hit with another effect within 15 seconds, that effect will only last 66% of its normal duration. Any other effects after that will only last 33% of their original duration. A target can be crowd controlled as normal once 15 seconds has past since they were last affected." (http://paladins.gamepedia.com/Status_Effects#Diminishing_Returns)

I am not 100% sure if this is a bug or if it's the above happening because I have noticed this a lot.

If it is a bug then usually whenever a bug like this keeps happening without any response it means that they don't know how to fix it and aren't working on it. Reversal's bug is a big example, it took them several months to even a respond saying they were aware of the bug and are finally working on it.

Since you started this bug thread in Feb I would recommend sending in a support ticket with this thread linked and all your vids/proof linked. Try to get a non-automated response there. If you are unable to get a response with a ticket then they probably won't respond to this at all until the community has a big uprising like they did with Reversal.

DreamC
04-23-2017, 07:36 AM
Diminishing returns is a mechanic that makes crowd control effects less effective when used on a recently affected target. When a target is first hit by a crowd control effect, they are affected for the entire duration. If they are hit with another effect within 15 seconds, that effect will only last 66% of its normal duration. Any other effects after that will only last 33% of their original duration. A target can be crowd controlled as normal once 15 seconds has past since they were last affected.

Didn't know that. And I didn't find any mentioning of this in-game.


I am not 100% sure if this is a bug or if it's the above happening because I have noticed this a lot.

Tested this in Shooting Range - used Damba's Gourd with slow on Fernando bot, then stunned him with using reload, and then ultied. He was affected for whole two seconds, however he should be affected for 0.66 due to diminishing return (if this mechanic is actually there)
Same with Pip - slowed him twice, then used ultimate. Chicken for 4 seconds.


If it is a bug then usually whenever a bug like this keeps happening without any response it means that they don't know how to fix it and aren't working on it. Reversal's bug is a big example, it took them several months to even a respond saying they were aware of the bug and are finally working on it.

Since you started this bug thread in Feb I would recommend sending in a support ticket with this thread linked and all your vids/proof linked. Try to get a non-automated response there. If you are unable to get a response with a ticket then they probably won't respond to this at all until the community has a big uprising like they did with Reversal.

Thanks for the suggestion! Will try this.

Bacrown
04-23-2017, 02:15 PM
Shooting Range isn't a good place to test things since they work completely different. Best bet is to get a custom game going with someone and testing it out there.

DreamC
05-09-2017, 06:55 PM
And up we go again

Tharindu207
05-10-2017, 05:09 AM
Oh yeah. I saw this once and made me wonder. Our team's damba ulted where enemy players were. Two of them were feared and ran away but Ruckus kept on shooting.

DreamC
05-10-2017, 08:04 AM
Oh yeah. I saw this once and made me wonder. Our team's damba ulted where enemy players were. Two of them were feared and ran away but Ruckus kept on shooting.

This can be due to Ruckus Crowd Control immunity while his ultimate. Needs some screenshots / videos (like I provided in the first post).

DreamC
05-11-2017, 12:01 PM
And up we go again.

Chavchava
05-11-2017, 02:38 PM
This is definitely an issue. I have noticed it (and raged over it) too many times

DreamC
05-12-2017, 08:24 AM
And going up again.

kjgaming2
05-12-2017, 08:47 AM
maybe if u saw the tip on the map loading screen that means that the more people get affected by cc effects the duration of that effect is reduced
try to fear one enemy
this are just my thoughts tbh

DreamC
05-12-2017, 10:00 AM
maybe if u saw the tip on the map loading screen that means that the more people get affected by cc effects the duration of that effect is reduced
try to fear one enemy
this are just my thoughts tbh

Actually I never saw anything like that.
However if this is like you said:
1) Such "critical" info must be conveyed in an explicit form - in skill's description.
2) It is more broken then I described in the post. You can try ultiing 3 people at a time and you will see them affected for the whole 2 seconds. Meaning that neither this tip nor the ulti itself works like intended.

DreamC
05-13-2017, 09:54 PM
Not there yet...

DreamC
05-15-2017, 05:31 PM
Still inconsistent ;)

DreamC
05-16-2017, 04:21 PM
And still is...

HiRezPixieKittie
05-16-2017, 07:00 PM
This is not a bug. There are many things that affect CC ults and abilities to reduce the time affected. Moving to feedback.

DreamC
05-19-2017, 10:27 PM
If a lot of things affect CC, then what exactly reduced it's duration in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppB_ti1Qp8A&feature=youtu.be
(which was posted in this thread before http://forums.paladins.com/showthread.php?29524-Inconsistent-Mal-Damba-ultimate&p=213659&viewfull=1#post213659 ) ?
Fernando had no Resilience, he had no cards that reduce CC duration and his teammates had no CC reducing abilities (Grohk had the attack Legendary).
So what could affect it?

WolfGamez5
05-20-2017, 01:34 AM
It is less of diminishing returns on the CC and more of the fact that it is coded into the ultimate that fear will only be applied once. it is not a bug but a feature of the ultimate

Jusey1
05-20-2017, 09:26 AM
yeah his ult sucks

Mal'Damba has a very powerful ultimate if timed correctly. Also, getting top play where you use your ultimate to make two enemies walk off the cliff (then finish off a 3rd) is always fun.

DreamC
05-20-2017, 09:33 AM
It is less of diminishing returns on the CC and more of the fact that it is coded into the ultimate that fear will only be applied once. it is not a bug but a feature of the ultimate

Can you, please, provide me with a place in game that states anything about diminishing returns?

And what do you mean by "applied once"? I said nothing about it hitting someone twice.

HiRezPixieKittie
05-22-2017, 04:50 PM
Can you, please, provide me with a place in game that states anything about diminishing returns?

And what do you mean by "applied once"? I said nothing about it hitting someone twice.

There's not a perfect place to explain this game mechanic. We don't run the wiki, but you can find how it works here: http://paladins.gamepedia.com/Status_Effects#Diminishing_Returns

DreamC
05-25-2017, 10:35 AM
There's not a perfect place to explain this game mechanic. We don't run the wiki, but you can find how it works here: http://paladins.gamepedia.com/Status_Effects#Diminishing_Returns

So is this an "official" (to some extent) explanation of the game mechanics?
Does this affect all kinds of CC?
If it does, then there are a LOT of situations that ignore it. Like Cauterize, which is noted as a CC, but does not apply any diminishing returns. Tossing Damba's snake and then using his ultimate does not apply returns as well. There are more to add.
What about Reveal and Sticky Bomb?

DreamC
05-26-2017, 08:54 PM
Just read the 51 patch notes.
It was stated for Inara:

No longer grants Debuff Immunity.
Now grants CC Immunity.
Which means that game has two kinds of states. Even the unofficial wiki has no info about this.
Is there any other place that can clearly state what is what?

Taikichi
05-26-2017, 11:37 PM
Just read the 51 patch notes.
It was stated for Inara:

Which means that game has two kinds of states. Even the unofficial wiki has no info about this.
Is there any other place that can clearly state what is what?

They talked about that in the patch preview. basically they just made the description more accurate. It was confusing because they consider debuffs and cc to be two different things. A debuff would be something like cauterize, CC would be cauterize AND makoa's hook. CC is just a term for everything but they acknowledge that there is a difference between cauterize and makoa's hook.

DreamC
05-27-2017, 07:56 AM
They talked about that in the patch preview.

Can you, please, link me to the right time of the video preview?

DreamC
05-27-2017, 10:00 AM
And by the way - there is one more term in game. It's "slow" (Resilience description). So is it different from CC or Status? Or it is included in one of those?

DreamC
05-28-2017, 11:31 AM
They talked about that in the patch preview. basically they just made the description more accurate.

I found where they talked about it a bit.
https://youtu.be/LjnwzNzeWdA?t=1650


It was confusing because they consider debuffs and cc to be two different things. A debuff would be something like cauterize, CC would be cauterize AND makoa's hook. CC is just a term for everything but they acknowledge that there is a difference between cauterize and makoa's hook.

However here you seem to be a bit incorrect.
Debuff seems to be a general term. Technically, any (negative) status your character receives is a debuff.
But next they say that it will now count as CC immunity (talking about Inara here), thus not giving her Cauterize immunity. And one can come to a conclusion that CC is considered to be something like any kind of slow, stun, movement or anything alike, but NOT cauterize, flame DoT, reveals or sticky bombs.

At the same time HiRezPixieKitti did not say that there is NO diminishing returns on consecutive CCs. Thus, any consecutive CC that does NOT diminish the duration of other CCs should be considered a bug. And there are a lot of those things.

Thales3002
05-28-2017, 03:02 PM
Maybe they've been CC'd in the last 15 seconds, which makes further CC have lesser duration. I don't think it should apply to Fear and Chicken effects.


And nothing is changing.

To add to some Damba problems - his Mending Spirits will go into cooldown without healing anyone if you there is a corner of an obstacle between you and your target.

Yeah, it's very annoying!

DreamC
05-28-2017, 03:35 PM
Why it should not apply?
There must be some kind of consistency in game. If it IS a CC, then it must be affected by diminishing returns. (and here Pip's ultimate already is broken, as it has a minimum duration of 2 seconds)

Thales3002
05-28-2017, 03:55 PM
So is this an "official" (to some extent) explanation of the game mechanics?
Does this affect all kinds of CC?
If it does, then there are a LOT of situations that ignore it. Like Cauterize, which is noted as a CC, but does not apply any diminishing returns. Tossing Damba's snake and then using his ultimate does not apply returns as well. There are more to add.
What about Reveal and Sticky Bomb?

Cauterize is not CC. It's a debuff.


Just read the 51 patch notes.
It was stated for Inara:

Which means that game has two kinds of states. Even the unofficial wiki has no info about this.
Is there any other place that can clearly state what is what?

Debuffs are any negative status applied to your character, this includes reduced healing, damage over time, reveal and crowd control (CC). CC is a type of debuff, every CC is a debuff but not every debuff is a CC. Stun, slow, cripple, silence, disarm, knockback, knockup, fear and chicken are all CC and debuffs; reduced healing and flame are only debuffs.

Thales3002
05-28-2017, 03:56 PM
Why it should not apply?
There must be some kind of consistency in game. If it IS a CC, then it must be affected by diminishing returns. (and here Pip's ultimate already is broken, as it has a minimum duration of 2 seconds)

For the same reason some ultimates bypass shields while normal abilities don't.

Because it's a ultimate, and not a normal CC ability that can be used anytime you want. Ultimates are supposed to be strong.

DreamC
05-28-2017, 04:53 PM
That's exactly what I said about CC... (however your previous post said ", CC would be cauterize AND makoa's hook. ", which was wrong).


Because it's a ultimate, and not a normal CC ability that can be used anytime you want. Ultimates are supposed to be strong.

However, in case of BK, his ultimate explicitly sates that it bypasses shields, while Pip's ultimate does not say anything about the minimum duration. And why Damba's ultimate should be different in this case? It has lower duration, while having no minimum duration.

Thales3002
05-28-2017, 05:21 PM
However, in case of BK, his ultimate explicitly sates that it bypasses shields, while Pip's ultimate does not say anything about the minimum duration. And why Damba's ultimate should be different in this case? It has lower duration, while having no minimum duration.

Mal'Damba ultimate has a minimum duration of 1 second

DreamC
05-28-2017, 07:07 PM
Video from the first page of this thread contradicts this. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppB_ti1Qp8A )

DreamC
05-29-2017, 08:13 PM
Just recorded another video of Mal's ultimate affecting an enemy for like 0.3 seconds.
https://youtu.be/-hrLWaJdAKg
Here you can see that Buck was stunned at 4:50 by BK, and after that was slowed by Mal'Damba at 4:49 (if this slow even affects the diminishing duration). And the next ultimate at 4:50 feared him for approximately 0.3 seconds.
No minimum duration of 1 second was applied (even if there is one). And he was previously controlled only twice, which should make him be feared (if diminishing duration applies) for 0.66 seconds.
And as it was shown later - Buck had no cards to save against CC.

Bacrown
05-30-2017, 09:01 PM
Just recorded another video of Mal's ultimate affecting an enemy for like 0.3 seconds.
https://youtu.be/-hrLWaJdAKg
Here you can see that Buck was stunned at 4:50 by BK, and after that was slowed by Mal'Damba at 4:49 (if this slow even affects the diminishing duration). And the next ultimate at 4:50 feared him for approximately 0.3 seconds.
No minimum duration of 1 second was applied (even if there is one). And he was previously controlled only twice, which should make him be feared (if diminishing duration applies) for 0.66 seconds.
And as it was shown later - Buck had no cards to save against CC.


That looks exactly like 0.66 seconds to me. Nothing wrong with that gameplay, everything played out that way because of Diminishing Returns. Pretty sure there is no minimum duration for Dread Serpent either because it's not listed anywhere.

SiderumNocte
05-30-2017, 09:44 PM
That looks exactly like 0.66 seconds to me. Nothing wrong with that gameplay, everything played out that way because of Diminishing Returns. Pretty sure there is no minimum duration for Dread Serpent either because it's not listed anywhere.

All CC supposedly have a minimum duration 0.5 seconds

Bacrown
05-30-2017, 10:13 PM
I would assume all CC has a minimum duration of 0.66 seconds because of Diminishing Returns.

AmsterdamHeavy
06-02-2017, 09:13 AM
Yeah, Im going to bump this one. Its frustrating to use Mal's ult and then it goes right by someone directly in front of you, or the reverse, there's no one and nothing in front of you and it just stops dead.

Jolernaught
06-02-2017, 11:14 PM
This isn't a bug to my knowledge. There are two reasons this could happen:

1: The card "Resilience" could be in play. This reduces the effect/duration of crowd control, and Mal'Damba's ult is crowd control.

2: If they have been cc'd recently (not sure what the time limit on this is) the effect/duration of further cc is reduced. (So if you fear them right after they've been crippled, stunned, rooted, etc., the fear won't last as long). I think they made this mechanic because stun damba was able to very nearly stun lock the enemy when he first came out lol.

Literally said it all. Also Grohk with Totemic Ward can block Fear just like it can block Torvalds knockback with his ult so I mean...another reason why people may not have been affected.

DreamC
06-06-2017, 04:41 PM
That looks exactly like 0.66 seconds to me. Nothing wrong with that gameplay, everything played out that way because of Diminishing Returns. Pretty sure there is no minimum duration for Dread Serpent either because it's not listed anywhere.

Ye, you are right here... The video shows that ulti affected Buck for 0.66 seconds.
I should play a bit more and record a few more ultimates.

Here's another video that shows how Mal'Damba's ultimate affects Makoa for the whole duration, even though Makoa was standing in Mal's slowing Gourd (thus, it should have reduced the duration of fear by 33%).
https://youtu.be/-Hj8srHKKUo


All CC supposedly have a minimum duration 0.5 seconds

I would assume all CC has a minimum duration of 0.66 seconds because of Diminishing Returns.

There's not a single place that states this. And why a 1 second CC would have a minimum of 0.5?

Not talking about the whole fact of having those diminishing returns, when there is a Resilience card... But this is another matter.


Literally said it all. Also Grohk with Totemic Ward can block Fear just like it can block Torvalds knockback with his ult so I mean...another reason why people may not have been affected.

We are not talking about stuff that grants CC immunity here ;)

Bacrown
06-06-2017, 08:16 PM
So I rewatched the video where I said everything played out the correct way and I saw Inara's Warder's Field up. My conclusion is that Damba's gourd does not count towards Diminishing Returns and therefore the Makoa was feared for the full 2 seconds. To be honest I think that Damba's slow gourd should count towards DR if it's not already supposed to.

Regarding the minimum duration of CC, I don't know what it is because it isn't listed anywhere. I am just assuming that the minimum is 0.66 seconds because of DR. I don't know if DR stacks with Resilience.

DreamC
06-06-2017, 08:44 PM
Seems like a lot of skills interact with CC DR a bit differently... (a bit is a way too light of a word)
0.66 - that's for skills that have a 2 second duration (33% minimum, doh). BUT, Pip has a hardcoded 2 seconds minimum... Great logic, isn't it?

One more great video:
https://youtu.be/5XoM7lMP1BY
Here, you can see Torvald being barely affected by Fear, while nobody in our team has any CC (except for Damba's slow on Gourd). So what caused Torvald to not get a full CC time in this case?
This situation is just like the previous one with Makoa, but Torbvald being affected for the minimum duration.
I really have no idea...

Bacrown
06-06-2017, 08:59 PM
Only thing I can guess is maybe Viktor's grenade is considered CC? If his grenade isn't CC then I have no idea why the Fear lasted 0.66 seconds.

DreamC
06-09-2017, 09:07 PM
That was my guess as well. Seems like (regardless the fact that devs just recently "reconsidered" what CC and debuffs are) most of control-ish things are not working as intended. Some should not be considered as any kind of control at all, while others should.

And why having the diminishing duration for consecutive control in the first place (that does not affect ALL skills equally), if we have the close to useless Resilience card? (though I use it sometimes) Isn't this card supposed to be countering heavy control characters?