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xXDrkHrdcrPROXx
01-16-2017, 06:11 PM
I think Ying's healing beams (Q clones) have too much range even though the cooldown is kind of short (you can even maintain two clones at once). I play all the supports and for Ying, I think she's the healer with the longest range (aside of Pip's Q, that can be thrown away) and healing potential with a normal ability. What do you think? Should it be nerfed a little and the useless right click changed for some other buff? Like a shield, speed or something like that?

ArtCrusade
01-16-2017, 07:03 PM
Boy oh boy, there is so much wrong in this post.. Ying's perfect right now, and her RMB is what lets her do insane combo damage with the right card. I'll let you figure that one out yourself, but let it be said that it is pretty damn hilarious!

CaoCao777
01-16-2017, 07:58 PM
Maldamba's healing laser has like infinite range ??

I think itd be awesome if Ying could have like 5 clones, but obviously nerf it then
I was SUPER disappointed by 2 max, its just kinda lame

ThatOthell159
01-16-2017, 08:49 PM
Flanker Ying is pretty good, you should try it

Insizer
01-19-2017, 04:52 PM
You my friend are nuts. Ying's healing has so much going against it.
* Her illusions can only heal one person at a time, and they will often heal the same target if they are placed fairly close together.
* The healing her illusions provide are over a period of time, not instantly. Even then the healing is not continual, rather in bursts.
* Her illusions target the ally with the lowest health, not the allies you may want to prioritize (for example a Frontline capping a point).
* Her illusions can be destroyed, shutting your healing down completely.
* No cards for Illusions offer any CC against enemies or give buffs to allies.
* One of Ying's abilities completely shuts off her healing.
* Her healing beams will give away the positions of allies from some perspectives. And they draw enemy attention as well.

Yes, Ying has cards to make more illusions easily and to reduce Illusions' cooldown, and yes Illusions has a very low cooldown. But they have so much against them. The range of the beam is about the only thing going for them. Frankly, her healing capability needs to be buffed in my opinion.

EDIT: downrepped for this post, of course.

Stephanos23
01-19-2017, 10:24 PM
To add on
-Most teammates run around a bit and only get a small portion of healing unless you are a front line and ying is next to you spawning illusions. The combined 800 healing from 2 clones is fair considering ying is more of a support champion than others.
-Ying does have a range on her attack which is not a lot.
-Health is not to much and would be easily killed if clones are not nearby to heal or has reduced healing
-Weapon doesn't do a large amount of damage as it goes by ticks and requires all ticks to get bonus damage. Most shots usually only get a couple ticks off since its a beam.

Its balanced if you compare it to grover, just being around heals for 80 passively, and you add on a healing ability, and no range on weapon with increase damage from distance. Also the ulti now charges with healing and grover's ulti heals for alot more than ying's

EvieIV
01-19-2017, 11:16 PM
To add on
-Most teammates run around a bit and only get a small portion of healing unless you are a front line and ying is next to you spawning illusions. The combined 800 healing from 2 clones is fair considering ying is more of a support champion than others.
-Ying does have a range on her attack which is not a lot.
-Health is not to much and would be easily killed if clones are not nearby to heal or has reduced healing
-Weapon doesn't do a large amount of damage as it goes by ticks and requires all ticks to get bonus damage. Most shots usually only get a couple ticks off since its a beam.

Its balanced if you compare it to grover, just being around heals for 80 passively, and you add on a healing ability, and no range on weapon with increase damage from distance. Also the ulti now charges with healing and grover's ulti heals for alot more than ying's

-even if you get all the ticks it's the lowest dps in game along with buck's
-2 illusions healing the same person doesn't stack
-the range to deploy an illusion isn't that big compared to mal'damba's

Spacey1
02-06-2017, 08:44 AM
* Her illusions can be destroyed, shutting your healing down completely.
* Her healing beams will give away the positions of allies from some perspectives. And they draw enemy attention as well.

These are actually two of the best things about them! Apart from some Dimensional Link/Shatter shenanigans you can pull with her to deliberately destroy them for big damage to open up the point, the illusions often actually draw fire. You know what enemies who are attacking Ying's illusions aren't doing at that moment? They aren't attacking Ying or her allies. That's damage that isn't happening to you or your team. It's like an invisible extra heal.

Insizer
02-06-2017, 10:40 AM
These are actually two of the best things about them! Apart from some Dimensional Link/Shatter shenanigans you can pull with her to deliberately destroy them for big damage to open up the point, the illusions often actually draw fire. You know what enemies who are attacking Ying's illusions aren't doing at that moment? They aren't attacking Ying or her allies. That's damage that isn't happening to you or your team. It's like an invisible extra heal.

Firstly, that is terrible logic, "They can be destroyed therefore they draw fire". Yes, they do draw fire, but that also shuts down your healing, limiting your healing, which is the main purpose of Illusions and more directly related to OP's issues with Illusion's healing range.

Secondly, I meant the visible healing beams point out where your allies are, the ones that you are healing, which goes against her being a healer. So again, her healing has something large against it.

Wallachia
02-06-2017, 10:42 AM
Firstly, that is terrible logic, "They can be destroyed therefore they draw fire". Yes, they do draw fire, but that also shuts down your healing, limiting your healing, which is the main purpose of Illusions and more directly related to OP's issues with Illusion's healing range.

Secondly, I meant the visible healing beams point out where your allies are, the ones that you are healing, which goes against her being a healer. So again, her healing has something large against it.

If you get the right deck you will be able to deply a new clone right as the old one is destroyed.

Hint: Don't spawn clones straight on the ground, spawn them on the air to at least have one second of healing before the clones are destroyed.

sinosleep
02-06-2017, 11:35 AM
Maldamba has moved ahead of Ying as far as pick rate goes among pros. I'd take that as proof enough she's fine.

Usage stats are newest to oldest from left to right. 1st column is the hi rez expo, 2nd column is evie's winter classic, 3rd is champion's cricuit

cassie 100%-----nando 100% ---------- nando 100%
makoa 100%-----cassie 100 -------- cassie 100%
nando 100%-----makoa 91% -------- evie 97%
shalin 96%-----andro 87% --------- andro 94%
damba 95%-----evie 83% --------- barik 94%
evie 93%-- -- -drogoz 82% ---------- ying 89%
ruckus 85%---- -barik 69% -------- viktor 89%
andro 82%----- maldamba 67% ------ makoa 89%
ying 73%- - - - -ying 58% --------- drogoz 87%
grover 38%---- -buck 51% --------- BK 35%
vik 29%-- -- -sha lin 50% --------- grohk 33%
buck 25 %---- - vik 39% ------------- pip 28%
kinessa 22%---- - BK 28% ----------- buck 23%
drogoz 20%-- - - -pip 26% ------------- damba 10%
barik 16%-----ruckus 25% -------- kinessa 7%
pip 15%-----kinessa 16% -------- ruckus 7%
bk 3%-----grohk 16% --------- grover 0%
skye 2%-----grover 0% ------- skye 0%
Tyra 2%-----Skye 0%
grohk 0%

Insizer
02-06-2017, 12:00 PM
If you get the right deck you will be able to deply a new clone right as the old one is destroyed.

Hint: Don't spawn clones straight on the ground, spawn them on the air to at least have one second of healing before the clones are destroyed.

I'm well aware. I also don't see how any of that has anything to do with my arguments.

Wallachia
02-06-2017, 02:31 PM
I'm well aware. I also don't see how any of that has anything to do with my arguments.

Because the argument "you can shut Ying's healing off by destroying her clones" isn't actually valid, due to cards and positioning.

kaimick
02-06-2017, 02:37 PM
Her clones don't move that far to begin with, and unless you build them with speed and healing on them they are almost useless offensively. her LMB attack is strong but slow to cycle, her healing is on par if not less than Grovers, I don't see how you can say she needs adjustment. Her teleport is prefect allowing you to cycle through Clone locations. her Ult is what makes her turly viable and allows her to be across the map and provide healing for a short time.

So not really sure where your getting that there is anything wrong with her

Spacey1
02-06-2017, 03:27 PM
Firstly, that is terrible logic, "They can be destroyed therefore they draw fire". Yes, they do draw fire, but that also shuts down your healing, limiting your healing, which is the main purpose of Illusions and more directly related to OP's issues with Illusion's healing range.

Okay, let's do a little figuring! Human response times vary from slightly under a second to about three seconds. For our purposes, we'll assume a very quick response time of about one second. Now, let's also assume it takes a damage champion about one second to aim and then do 1,000 damage, which is enough to kill a Ying illusion. That's about two seconds from illusion creation to destruction, assuming an exceptionally fast response time and a damage champion like, say, Viktor. In that time, our illusion just did 700 in healing and mitigated at least another 1,000 damage spent destroying it (really more than that because there will invariably be both wasted ammunition and damage overflow) rather than damaging allies. That's a total of 1,700+ impact from an ability with a five-second cooldown (without even getting into the card that lets you re-create them using your F as well) and in some cases may also include wasting cooldown abilities (I've made Makoa waste his chain pull on my illusions before).

What if the situation isn't optimal? What if it takes the person another second to respond? Well, that's 2,050+ now. What if it's also a champ who can't do the 1,000 in one second (some can't, after all)? Well, now we're at a 2,400+ impact.

Here's a question: how much attention are the opposing team members devoting to just watching for Ying illusions? Studies find that multitasking as people traditionally understand it is largely a fictional concept; you don't actually focus on multiple tasks so much as rapidly switch between them, and your performance on each task suffers as you add more. A person on 24/7 Ying Illusion Watch is doing everything else worse as a result, so if you've got someone doing that, it's like you've basically applied a persistent debuff to that person.

The likelier situation is that people are just destroying Ying's illusions as targets of opportunity when they happen to notice them and aren't currently focused on another target, but that also means they're not usually destroying them the moment they appear and at times may even be destroying them when they were about to expire anyway. In the most extreme case, that means an illusion may get to do all of its healing and then also mitigate 1,000+ points of damage that could have been dealt to you or one of your allies instead!

Stephanos23
02-08-2017, 08:46 PM
For shatter, 2 clones and thats 1000 damage, why would you want to get rid of it. It like a homing missile but a bit slower. I gotten a triple kill once by detonating them in a crowd of people in a closed place and finished off another person for a quad kill. Right click is good because you can use them to cause splash damage and finish someone off. In terms of healing, the trade off is less damage for more healing, i think that is a acceptable trade. If you compare the DPS to other support champions, ying has the least, but she does have more healing capability with the clones and allies dont need to look for a ring that they have to stand in to heal.

SnowTamer
02-09-2017, 12:35 AM
You my friend are nuts. Ying's healing has so much going against it.
* Her illusions can only heal one person at a time, and they will often heal the same target if they are placed fairly close together.
* The healing her illusions provide are over a period of time, not instantly. Even then the healing is not continual, rather in bursts.
* Her illusions target the ally with the lowest health, not the allies you may want to prioritize (for example a Frontline capping a point).
* Her illusions can be destroyed, shutting your healing down completely.
* No cards for Illusions offer any CC against enemies or give buffs to allies.
* One of Ying's abilities completely shuts off her healing.
* Her healing beams will give away the positions of allies from some perspectives. And they draw enemy attention as well.

Yes, Ying has cards to make more illusions easily and to reduce Illusions' cooldown, and yes Illusions has a very low cooldown. But they have so much against them. The range of the beam is about the only thing going for them. Frankly, her healing capability needs to be buffed in my opinion.

EDIT: downrepped for this post, of course.

I agree, if people buy like bulldozer and learn to target, GG

truehypershadow
02-09-2017, 07:20 AM
ying is bad healer

wow, direct negetive rep LOL
perhaps state why you do that...

ying is a weak healer, needs buff...
thats what if meant if you didn't get it short and simple

Spacey1
02-09-2017, 08:36 AM
I see a lot of people don't know how to play Ying!

Arigena
02-09-2017, 08:51 AM
ying is bad healer

Really? i know its matter of opinion,but in my view Ying is great healer,if maybe not of the best,depend on card setting.My main is Ying - full focus healer and so far i have no problem keep my team alive to reach a defend point.That is main reason why after first round,entire enemy team go after me first :D

Insizer
02-09-2017, 10:59 AM
Because the argument "you can shut Ying's healing off by destroying her clones" isn't actually valid, due to cards and positioning.

I was specifically comparing it to the instant/non-destroyable aspect of Pip, Damba, and Grover's healing, nothing more, nothing less. I'm not saying that those are better or worse, just comparing aspects. The fact is that your enemies can technically shut it down if they were such inclined. Yes, you can respawn it again and again. Hell, you have two methods of doing so. I was just pointing out the innate aspects/traits of her healing, compared to other healing abilities.

I will admit that it was a weak point (I knew that when I was writing it), especially when you look at Grokk. But I felt it important to put it there nonetheless.


-snip- summary: Enemies focusing on your illusions means that they are not focusing on your allies. And often they kill illusions that are about to die anyways.

You are right, but as I said above I was comparing aspects of healing abilities. Furthermore, OP's contention was that Ying's healing capability is too great due to the range and cooldowns of her Illusions, not that they provided too much utility or has other uses. Hell, the thread title is specifically about her healing. I was just trying to stay on point.


General/off-topicish reply:
It seems that people are thinking that I think Ying is a bad healer and/or a bad Support. I'll admit, I'm not the best with her. I still have problems using her (mostly lack of damage, lack of normal mobility, and some of my habits/poor tactics causing me issues when facing good Flankers), but I don't think she's bad and know that she has a kit that has a good amount of utility and that when used well would make her a potent support. Despite my issues I still love playing her, and know that her Illusion's healing has its drawbacks which must be considered when evaluating it. I believe that Illusion's healing has enough drawbacks to say that it is balanced or balanced enough for horseshoes and hand grenades, relative to other healing abilities.

I apologize if there was any confusion.

Wallachia
02-09-2017, 11:08 AM
I was specifically comparing it to the instant/non-destroyable aspect of Pip, Damba, and Grover's healing, nothing more, nothing less. I'm not saying that those are better or worse, just comparing aspects. The fact is that your enemies can technically shut it down if they were such inclined. Yes, you can respawn it again and again. Hell, you have two methods of doing so. I was just pointing out the innate aspects/traits of her healing, compared to other healing abilities.

I will admit that it was a weak point (I knew that when I was writing it), especially when you look at Grokk. But I felt it important to put it there nonetheless.

Yeah, but what I'm saying is that Ying has means to counter having her clones shut down much easier than Grohk, for instance.

Sure, Pip, Damba and Grover have non-destructable healings, but:

1 - Pip's healing potion is good, but it can't provide continuous healing like Ying's clones.
2 - Mal'damba's Gourd isn't destructible, but it CAN be deflected by Fernando or Barik if they set their shield in the way. Why would someone even aim the Gourd anywhere else but on the ground to prevent that, however, is beyond me.
3 - Grohk's totem is fixed and IIRC he doesn't have a card to reduce cooldown on the totem if it's destroyed.

I'm not saying that Ying is better as a healer than them all, but in the aspect of healing under fire - ignoring completely the offensive ability of all support champions - she's formidable to heal the team while they are being attacked.

Arigena
02-09-2017, 11:59 AM
I'm not saying that Ying is better as a healer than them all, but in the aspect of healing under fire - ignoring completely the offensive ability of all support champions - she's formidable to heal the team while they are being attacked.

That is main reason why i play her as healer,because she can heal even if she is under heavy fire,sure others can too,but not like Ying.Its even look like she meant to be prime healer,develope like that.Sure everyone can argue with me,but this is my opinion at least,why she is in my eyes best healer in the game.

Spacey1
02-09-2017, 12:08 PM
I like her ability to both heal but also clear the point by shatterbombing (which also provides self-healing if you build for it). I play a relatively offensive Ying whose damage numbers are right up there with her healing numbers.

Wallachia
02-09-2017, 12:10 PM
I like her ability to both heal but also clear the point by shatterbombing (which also provides self-healing if you build for it). I play a relatively offensive Ying whose damage numbers are right up there with her healing numbers.

There's something very enjoyable to shatterbomb a Barik when he's low HP and tries to save himself by standing behind his shield.

I love how most people don't notice that Makoa is a sitting duck for shatter when he sets his shields up, because the clones go through it and Makoa can't run. With the right deck you can use 4 clones and deal 2k damage to everyone in range, huehuahue.

Spacey1
02-09-2017, 12:39 PM
There's something very enjoyable to shatterbomb a Barik when he's low HP and tries to save himself by standing behind his shield.

I love how most people don't notice that Makoa is a sitting duck for shatter when he sets his shields up, because the clones go through it and Makoa can't run. With the right deck you can use 4 clones and deal 2k damage to everyone in range, huehuahue.

It's actually even crazier than that. First off, remember that if each clone hits, the second one does 625, so it's actually 2250 for four clones. Furthermore, if you're built for it, you can shatter the two you have up already first, then Dimensional Link two more into existence and immediately shatter them, then Dimensional Link two into existence one more time during the same F. So that's actually six clones, or 3375 AE damage total over a matter of a few seconds. Also, once you get used to doing it, you can get a left mouse attack or three in between Dimensional Link cycles as well without messing up the timing on your Dimensional Link/Shatter combo. Then, once your AE burst is done, go ahead and pop up another clone to return to healing! Rinse and repeat as needed.

You could probably, if you built to squeeze out every fraction of a second, even get one more cycle in during your burst and make it 4500 instead, but the timing would be finicky, and I think it's more practical to build to get other things, such as self-healing from your shatters.

Insizer
02-09-2017, 12:47 PM
Yeah, but what I'm saying is that Ying has means to counter having her clones shut down much easier than Grohk, for instance.

Sure, Pip, Damba and Grover have non-destructable healings, but:

1 - Pip's healing potion is good, but it can't provide continuous healing like Ying's clones.
2 - Mal'damba's Gourd isn't destructible, but it CAN be deflected by Fernando or Barik if they set their shield in the way. Why would someone even aim the Gourd anywhere else but on the ground to prevent that, however, is beyond me.
3 - Grohk's totem is fixed and IIRC he doesn't have a card to reduce cooldown on the totem if it's destroyed.

I'm not saying that Ying is better as a healer than them all, but in the aspect of healing under fire - ignoring completely the offensive ability of all support champions - she's formidable to heal the team while they are being attacked.

I fully understand what you are saying. I agree, she can counter it simply due to her cooldown and such. And yes, you are right, there are aspects of Illusion's healing which other champs do not have. Again, I was trying to stay on point, to negate the idea that Illusion's healing capability was too good due to its cooldown and range.

Wallachia
02-09-2017, 12:48 PM
I fully understand what you are saying. I agree, she can counter it simply due to her cooldown and such. And yes, you are right, there are aspects of Illusion's healing which other champs do not have. Again, I was trying to stay on point, to negate the idea that Illusion's healing capability was too good due to its cooldown and range.


Oh, but I didn't disagree with you. I fully understand what you mean. What I meant to say is that Ying is unique in the sense that she can minimize the prejudice caused by the destruction of her clones, as if her healing was pratically not reduced.

SiderumNocte
02-09-2017, 02:59 PM
In my opinion buff Yings health to 2500, and add 1 second duration to the clones.
These were the two nerfs that hurt her in my opinion, after that she'll be good in my book.
I love Ying, used to play her every game I could, then they nerfed her because everyone was crying about how much she healed.
They first nerfed her duration, then nerfed her healing and health. The health was were I through my hands up and stopped playing her.
Ying requires finesse to play to her full potential, more so than any other champion in my opinion. Easy to pick, difficult to master.
As far as the Pro Scene, Mal Damba is what Ana is to overwatch, no reason not to pick him.
If we had Mirror Matches I doubt Ying would ever be picked in the pro scene.
However Legendary cards will be added soon so who knows how things will balance or unbalance out.

Spacey1
02-09-2017, 03:14 PM
In my opinion buff Yings health to 2500, and add 1 second duration to the clones.
These were the two nerfs that hurt her in my opinion, after that she'll be good in my book.

Sure, I'd be down with being even more powerful. :D

Arigena
02-09-2017, 03:23 PM
I love Ying, used to play her every game I could, then they nerfed her because everyone was crying about how much she healed.
They first nerfed her duration, then nerfed her healing and health. The health was were I through my hands up and stopped playing her.
Ying requires finesse to play to her full potential, more so than any other champion in my opinion. Easy to pick, difficult to master.


Nice said,as you say difficult to master,but she is a lot more Fun and enjoy then any other. I try others like Pip,Grover or Mal'Damba,but for some reason Ying always seems as best choice for full focus healer like myself :)
To be clear, i never said others are worst,but Ying healing clones is more suitable sometimes in middle of battle. Small but constant heal instead one bigger burst heal like Pip :)