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View Full Version : An in-depth look on Aggression | Discussion



ArtCrusade
01-16-2017, 11:59 AM
Hey folks,

so this issue has been bugging me throughout my entire time of playing Paladins. Newbies on your game will buy Aggression as their first item and upgrade nothing but this sole item since they play a character classified as 'Damage' which fools them into buying the one 'Damage' item that increases their weapon damage.

I don't know how often I explained how and why other items are simply better, and I have simply grown tired of it. In essence, Aggression is a money dump that has little impact. But what can we do to make it work?

Aggression costs 400 credits (progressing to 800 / 1200 for consecutive upgrades) for +5% weapon damage (10% / 15% for upgrades), while defensive items cost 300 credits (600 / 900) and provide -10% damage (-20% / -30%) for one damage type, including all sources.

That means that a Drogoz with Aggression II will deal 1045 instead of 950 damage with his LMB only on direct hits for which he payed 1200 credits. Note: his firespit combo is not affected by the item purchase. An opposing player on the other hand can buy Blast Shield II for 900 credits and have 300 credits left over for another item and gets -20% damage from AoE-type of attacks, regardless of its source.

That is quite frankly nuts! - and exactly the reason why Aggression is the worst item purchase possible right now.

The only time that I can imagine Aggression to have somewhat of an impact is when you pick Drogoz, Evie or Bombking and the entire enemy team builds Haven. In that particular case, Aggression would actually make a difference. Characters with 2.000 HP will be two hits for a Drogoz who spent 1200 credits on Aggression, but it would still need to be 2 real direct hits - and hitting those rockets from afar is not at all easy.

So what needs to be done?

Several options come to mind:

1 ) Tweaking the numbers: increase weapon damage dealt by 7.5 / 15 / 22.5% so that focussing on building Aggression can force an enemy to respond by further upgrading the related defensive item. Right now Aggression II is countered by Haven or Blast Shield on level I, so this would add some depth to the item.

2 ) Twisting it up: increasing overall damage by 5 / 10 / 15% would help distinguish Aggression and define its role. You'd get more bang for your buck and Cauterize and Wrecker would retain their usefulness regardlessly.

3 ) Changing the effect: this would require some brainstorming, as I do not believe that anyone wants to see Aggression being changed to buffing rate of fire (looking at you, Ruckus and Tyra!). Maybe someone has a particularily interesting idea that could help solve this.

4 ) Removing it from the game: as is, Aggression is a "noob trap" and cause of bad decisionmaking and potentially even hairloss. I'd much prefer one of the other solutions, but if nothing else makes sense to the devs, then at least disabling it for the time being would help a lot.

-

Tl;dr: this item needs fixing. If either of my suggestions sound good to you, please let me know in the comments below. If you have ideas of your own, please share them so we can get a healthy discussion going about this subject!

GL / HF :)

xXDrkHrdcrPROXx
01-16-2017, 03:06 PM
Taking it out of the game would be drastic, but i wouldn't be surprised if they do, we need more variety i think, a few buffs and maybe nerfs on some.

tcrawford113
01-16-2017, 03:20 PM
I like your idea of increasing the overall damage. And/or, let it start at 10% and cap at 30%, letting it cancel out the defensive cards. Also, I don't think the enemy team can see what cards you have purchased. If they can, that should stop. Let the players adjust according to how they performed, round-by-round.

Thundarkhat
01-16-2017, 03:28 PM
Still like the idea of replacing it with an "Anti-Air" card.

Mundal
01-16-2017, 03:45 PM
I like your idea of increasing the overall damage. And/or, let it start at 10% and cap at 30%, letting it cancel out the defensive cards. Also, I don't think the enemy team can see what cards you have purchased. If they can, that should stop. Let the players adjust according to how they performed, round-by-round.

30% is a lot man, Evie and Drogoz would be wrecking everyone, given that drogoz gets a bonus damage after thrust and Evie damage after blink. That's like 2 shotting many champions if they don't buy the right cards and even if they did, they can risk getting destroyed by Direct damage dealers. Which is why i don't want any damage increase in aggression cards.

tcrawford113
01-16-2017, 03:52 PM
30% is a lot man, Evie and Drogoz would be wrecking everyone, given that drogoz gets a bonus damage after thrust and Evie damage after blink. That's like 2 shotting many champions if they don't buy the right cards and even if they did, they can risk getting destroyed by Direct damage dealers. Which is why i don't want any damage increase in aggression cards.

Let me get this strait, you don't want any cards that increase damage? I understand not wanting it to be high, but none at all? Some characters need increased damage. Some low damage character could use Aggression to bring them even with the other characters. Ok, so what would you Replace Aggression with?

EpplZ
01-16-2017, 03:59 PM
As you said, aggression is a noobtrap and should be removed

ArtCrusade
01-17-2017, 05:56 AM
Lengthy reply incoming!


Taking it out of the game would be drastic, but i wouldn't be surprised if they do, we need more variety i think, a few buffs and maybe nerfs on some.

Even if you nerf other cards, Aggression would still be terrible as it is right now. You'd literally need to cut defense values on Haven & Blast Shield, which would result in a huge swing in balance to certain ultimates like Viktor's or Skye's. It is Aggression that has problems of its own, and nerf-hammering the rest of the cards to be as bad as Aggression is not the correct way to handle this in my opinion. :)


I like your idea of increasing the overall damage. And/or, let it start at 10% and cap at 30%, letting it cancel out the defensive cards. Also, I don't think the enemy team can see what cards you have purchased. If they can, that should stop. Let the players adjust according to how they performed, round-by-round.

I think doubling the overall increase in weapon damage would be too much, but Aggression partially countering defensive items like Haven and Blast Shield seems like a pretty valid thing. When Aggression would progress like 7.5 / 15 / 22.5 it would still be countered by the particular defensive burn card, but allow e.g. a Drogoz to hit harder against targets that bought Haven. I think it would make the burn card strategy more profound and diverse actually, since you'd otherwise buy Wrecker or Cauterize to counter tanks or supports. Aggression would be a buy against squishies with no self-heal.


Still like the idea of replacing it with an "Anti-Air" card.

How would that look in detail? Would it buff damage against enemies that are not grounded? Like, if I bunny-hop around being nifty and dodgy, will I receive extra damage? Or would only characters like Drogoz and Evie be affected? Sounds interesting. :)

EvieIV
01-17-2017, 07:56 AM
typical plebs who think what matters is the enemy cards rather than what you yourself need

smh

Thundarkhat
01-17-2017, 08:09 AM
Lengthy reply incoming!



Even if you nerf other cards, Aggression would still be terrible as it is right now. You'd literally need to cut defense values on Haven & Blast Shield, which would result in a huge swing in balance to certain ultimates like Viktor's or Skye's. It is Aggression that has problems of its own, and nerf-hammering the rest of the cards to be as bad as Aggression is not the correct way to handle this in my opinion. :)



I think doubling the overall increase in weapon damage would be too much, but Aggression partially countering defensive items like Haven and Blast Shield seems like a pretty valid thing. When Aggression would progress like 7.5 / 15 / 22.5 it would still be countered by the particular defensive burn card, but allow e.g. a Drogoz to hit harder against targets that bought Haven. I think it would make the burn card strategy more profound and diverse actually, since you'd otherwise buy Wrecker or Cauterize to counter tanks or supports. Aggression would be a buy against squishies with no self-heal.



How would that look in detail? Would it buff damage against enemies that are not grounded? Like, if I bunny-hop around being nifty and dodgy, will I receive extra damage? Or would only characters like Drogoz and Evie be affected? Sounds interesting. :)

A simple 10-15-20% damage increase TO champs who are in the air. There would have to be a threshold for height. Just jumping wouldn't be enough to have it triggered.So BK, Evie, Drogoz and Androx would be affected, off the top of my head.

ArtCrusade
01-17-2017, 08:33 AM
@EvieIV: Can you elaborate your statement?

@Thundarkhat: What about Cassie's Disengage combo then? Would be spicy. :)

Sijanomancer
01-17-2017, 08:55 AM
for Evie:
Evie LM dmg per shot: 930dmg
+20% more dmg from Blink
+x% more dmg from Aggression

i dont know if its like that:
(dmg LM + 20% LM + x% LM ) * 2= total
or
dmg LM +20% LM=temp
( temp + x% temp ) * 2=total
i used the first one (if i calculated it right). The names after the dmg are who would be dead after the 2 direct hits


without Agression (2200dmg): Viktor, Sha Lin, Kinessa, Cassie, Androx, Evie, Skye

With Aggression(5%) lvl 1 (2325dmg):
With Aggression(5%) lvl 2 (2418dmg): Ying, Tyra,
With Aggression(5%) lvl 3 (2500dmg): BK, Pip, Drogoz

With Aggression(7,5%) lvl 1 (2371dmg): Ying
With Aggression(7,5%) lvl 2 (2500dmg): Tyra, BK, Drogoz, Pip
With Aggression(7,5%) lvl 3 (2650dmg): Mal Dumber

With Aggression(10%) lvl 1 (2418dmg): Ying, Tyra,
With Aggression(10%) lvl 2 (2604dmg): BK, Drogoz, Pip
With Aggression(10%) lvl 3 (2790dmg): Mal Dumber, Grohk

7,5% would be maybe op, 10% is op.

EvieIV
01-17-2017, 09:46 AM
@EvieIV: Can you elaborate your statement?

@Thundarkhat: What about Cassie's Disengage combo then? Would be spicy. :)

who cares if the enemy has gone haven or blast shields is up to YOU and only YOU to decide which cards benefit you MORE.

haven and blast shields are good yeah but if you're getting both shot by evie and kinessa you're gonna die anyway whereas maybe agression would have made you kill at least one of them rather than leave one at 1%

your card choice goes depending on YOUR needs not on the enemy team stupid cards. the only frontliner in enemy team is makoa and your fernando already has maxed cauterize? then agression is the good to go for most champions, let aside the fact that picking agression doesn't mean you can't have maxed your own haven and/or other cards

heck i do pick agression myself a lot and i'm a master on multiple champions

tcrawford113
01-17-2017, 01:30 PM
Allowing Aggression to affect AOE, as well as point damage (essentially, let it effect overall damage rather than specific damage) would balance the card in the most effective way. Otherwise, starting it at 10% and capping it at 20% is the only other solution I can think of. You don't want to eliminate it. That is too drastic a measure.

ArtCrusade
01-20-2017, 12:09 PM
So let's break this down: I think we all can agree that 400 credits are okay for an item that is high risk high reward in the sense that you need less shots for kill conversions, especially on squishy targets. But the overall increase in damage is simply the bugger. Right now, I lean strongly towards making Aggression affect any damage dealt by the champion buying it. But maybe that's taking it too far considering there are champions with mixed damage sets like Tyra. Who knows..

tcrawford113
01-20-2017, 12:21 PM
So let's break this down: I think we all can agree that 400 credits are okay for an item that is high risk high reward in the sense that you need less shots for kill conversions, especially on squishy targets. But the overall increase in damage is simply the bugger. Right now, I lean strongly towards making Aggression affect any damage dealt by the champion buying it. But maybe that's taking it too far considering there are champions with mixed damage sets like Tyra. Who knows..

I don't think it's taking it too far. Letting the card affect overall damage, rather than just weapon damage, would balance it out w/o having to increase the damage at all. That way, characters like Victor can deal with characters protected by either Blast shield or Haven. As it stands, choosing Haven renders Aggression useless. That is why most players instalock on Haven.