PDA

View Full Version : Some thoughts about Buck



IDaudIt
01-09-2017, 08:36 AM
For quite long time I was thinking about Buck’s Recovery and HP and I have mixed feelings about it.

First thing, his health. It’s 3000 hp and it seems quite too big when you compare it with other classes, especially flanks. Evie and Skye have 1800 and Andro 2000. Only classes that have 3000+ hp are tanks, except Barik who has 2900. Of cours, I understand differences between playstyles of each classes, but it still seems for me a little bit unfair when you take into consideration Buck’s abillity to heal. He can heal 1000 points over 4 s, when other flanks can heal themselfs only by using special cards and still the amount of health is smaller than Buck’s Recovery. And also Buck is only class other than suport who can heal themself by basic abillity, not cards. For example Evie’s Iceblock heals when you have Reprieve card and Blink heals with Flicker card. Yea I got that Buck needs to get close to enemies and have a chance for surviving but I still have doubts when play as Buck or against him.

His other skills and damage are fair balanced for me and Recovery is the main thing that I have doubts about. It really makes me wonder if it’s allright for flank character to have healing as basic skill. What do you think guys?

KicksBrickster
01-09-2017, 08:40 AM
He trades damage for it. Understand that Buck's maximum damage sans headshots is only 550 per second with some really strong falloff. Androxus gets 600 every half second, Evie shoots for 950, and Skye has something like triple the damage output.

He's also got the largest hitbox out of all of them, and the weakest ult. He's got enough downsides to warrant his higher health.

Huttmunkkeeeys
01-09-2017, 08:50 AM
Buck does a meager 550 DPS. If you compare that to Andro with 1200 DPS, Evie with 1100 DPS, and skye with 1500+ DPS, his high health and recovery are warranted. It's a trade off for him, lower damage higher health.

IDaudIt
01-09-2017, 09:19 AM
I see. It makes a lot of sense. I would just add that aming as Buck is easier than aiming as Andro, but yea, you're right that difference between their DPS is really big and I agree with you guys. Thanks for your replies.

PTLagger
01-09-2017, 11:58 AM
It's hard to balance a shotgun in logicable way. IRL all shotgun are monster in close range, capable of 1-shoot-kill any squishies. Shotgun are usually used by Recon class, fast and deadly. With TTK in this game, shotgun should deal at least 1000 dmg per shoot. Even a guy who use it have 2000HP, is more OP with that dmg because how easy to aim with shotgun (like a hitscan Evie). And Hirez made his shotgun's dmg more like a nerf gun, and increase his HP for trade-off. That's what Hirez can do to balanced shotgun in game.

EpplZ
01-09-2017, 01:15 PM
Thing is all of this is theoritical dps (meaning you hit all of your shots and never miss), buck can leap in and out each 4 seconds, recovery is pretty strong and even if his dps is (on paper) low, you dont miss much with his shotgun point blank, to have a more practical dps calculation we would need accuracy stat across the champions.

I still think he's a tad too strong on a caracter level, on meta level, regroup and take cauterize and he's toast.

Huttmunkkeeeys
01-09-2017, 02:20 PM
Thing is all of this is theoritical dps (meaning you hit all of your shots and never miss), buck can leap in and out each 4 seconds, recovery is pretty strong and even if his dps is (on paper) low, you dont miss much with his shotgun point blank, to have a more practical dps calculation we would need accuracy stat across the champions.

I still think he's a tad too strong on a caracter level, on meta level, regroup and take cauterize and he's toast.

Yes, but considering that someone who's actually skilled with the other flanks, they can hit 90% + of their hits. Also, with the spread cone on Bucks shotgun, once you get some distance, his gun turns into a pea shooter. Unlike Androxus who, if you try and run from, and snipe you from quite the distance.

VetVel
01-10-2017, 05:01 AM
lol if you actually miss more than 2/6shots with an Androxus on a Buck(jumping or not) that's pretty bad. Easy to headshot the Buck with Andro as well...so really don't feel like he's OP, just get cauterize...renders him pretty useless especially if he runs the 40% life steal while Recovery is active.

EpplZ
01-10-2017, 05:05 AM
Yes, but considering that someone who's actually skilled with the other flanks, they can hit 90% + of their hits. Also, with the spread cone on Bucks shotgun, once you get some distance, his gun turns into a pea shooter. Unlike Androxus who, if you try and run from, and snipe you from quite the distance.

I agree and disagree here, because even in proplay I've never seen 90+ % accuracy even with snipers (tho I played really faster paced game), I'd really like to have real stats about accuracy added to the game and accessible to us, but not sure it would happen one day :D

XiaoJyunSLO
01-10-2017, 03:46 PM
I agree and disagree here, because even in proplay I've never seen 90+ % accuracy even with snipers (tho I played really faster paced game), I'd really like to have real stats about accuracy added to the game and accessible to us, but not sure it would happen one day :D

pros consistently hit headshots as androxus while flying around....

but if oyu are looking at stats...sure...remember that people prefire and lay down covering fire a lot of times...also you may get CCed and the likes which can mess up your timings...but that affects everyone...including buck....

and it is completely IRRELEVANT that others need cards to heal....as if for some reason you could paly without them or they are some unfair advantage

also his HP regen is slow, its 250 per second for 4 seconds

honestly he is the easiest flank to deal with along with skye, the bigass target that he is can lsoe fights vs drogz bk and tyra assuming shes good. also since he relies on being tanky through healing, he also falls of the hardest of all flanks since cauterize is a thing....

personally hes my favorite flank to paly as and against because he does not have frustrating abilities to thep oint where bad players would beat you with him, like those evies who can blink on oyu and shoot aim at the floor 2 times and blow up almost every dmg character, or androxus who can litterally walk up to you and left click you

and yeah evei can heal 600 every 4 seconds with double-blinking wormhole, has double the DPS of buck, and the heal is even stronger since shes hard to hit

just watch pro games and see how little buck is used and how little effect he has on the game against people who can play...meanwhile evie and cassie still dominating even after all the nerfs

EpplZ
01-10-2017, 05:27 PM
pros consistently hit headshots as androxus while flying around....

but if oyu are looking at stats...sure...remember that people prefire and lay down covering fire a lot of times...also you may get CCed and the likes which can mess up your timings...but that affects everyone...including buck....

Again, this is a "fact" straight outta your head, as long as I dont have accy stats we cant estimate the real dps, I'm not for a Buck nerf heh, but for the sake of argumentation I would like a real fact about accuracy.

Huttmunkkeeeys
01-10-2017, 11:11 PM
Again, this is a "fact" straight outta your head, as long as I dont have accy stats we cant estimate the real dps, I'm not for a Buck nerf heh, but for the sake of argumentation I would like a real fact about accuracy.

The problem is adding an Acc stat to the game will run into problems. For a hitscan hero like Vic, Tyra and Kinessa, this will be easy, but then it gets more complicated for AOE heroes like BK, Pip and Evie. What dictates as a hit for them? Is it when the projectile hits, or is it if the enemy takes damage from a shot? As someone who plays a lot of Pip, I can tell you that there are times that I'll fire, knowing the shot will never hit the target, in order to tag an enemy from the AOE to prevent them from healing. Does that count as a miss? Or maybe a hit as I'm still doing damage with my AOE. What about BK? He can throw a bunch of bombs on the ground and when an enemy walks over he detonates. Does that count as a hit or a miss?

Then we get to Buck and Barik which have shotgun based weapons. Does Acc take into account that their guns fire more then 1 projectile per shot or not. Buck shoots 27 pellets every time he fires. Once you get about 10 feet away, there's a high chance that some of these pellets will miss. Is that taken into account? What about warm-ups where people fire their guns randomly, does that count? All of this isn't even taking into account the randomness in shots that about 70% of the champions experience. You can have your cursor on a target and there is a chance that you'll miss a shot simply because the RNG wasn't on your side.

So to tell how accurate a character can be, you'll have to look at someone who's dedicated a large amount of time into the game and have quite a bit of skill, someone like a pro. If you've ever seen pros play, they can hit 90%+ of their shots. this is what separates them from the Mediocre players.

EpplZ
01-11-2017, 07:38 AM
Well accuracy is when you hit (ie : making damage), thats always been there in FPS and will remain the same I guess :) I'm still not accustomed to the fact that many of you guys come from Moba or other types, I exclusively play fps since ages now (and I'm still pretty bad ^^) so to me accuracy stats are a must have, because thats how you really see improvement in this compartiment of the game.

Best snipers in proteam are around 60% usually and its already really huge, in Qlive when you are above 40-50% you are already a really good player, I get that paladins is somehow "easier" in the aiming side but still, I'm pretty sure no one is at 90+% accuracy.

Spray and pray aka viktor / tyra / grover spam / BK spam / evie spam etc is included in accuracy, thing is you seems to want to make a complex thing out of thin air while it is just really easy to calculate, just count the hit (AoE included) or miss and make a percentage, thats how accy is calculated in fps, and it would be an indicator I would really like to have.

It wouldnt solve all the problems tho, because with damage falloff you cant really get "real" dps out of accy * theoritical damage.

I do admit tho that buck is on paper the less damaging type, and in many hands he's, so thats his tradeoff and I'm not for a nerf, but you also must realise that a flank is not supposed to deal much dps, he's supposed to have high kills / minute (finishing wounded players, taking some 1V1), and in this category I'm pretty sure Buck is not the last flanker around.

Again I might be wrong, if I have time I'll take the spreadsheet dratahasu had pulled off from guru and try to calculate some stats.

Huttmunkkeeeys
01-11-2017, 08:16 AM
Well accuracy is when you hit (ie : making damage), thats always been there in FPS and will remain the same I guess :) I'm still not accustomed to the fact that many of you guys come from Moba or other types, I exclusively play fps since ages now (and I'm still pretty bad ^^) so to me accuracy stats are a must have, because thats how you really see improvement in this compartiment of the game.

Best snipers in proteam are around 60% usually and its already really huge, in Qlive when you are above 40-50% you are already a really good player, I get that paladins is somehow "easier" in the aiming side but still, I'm pretty sure no one is at 90+% accuracy.

Spray and pray aka viktor / tyra / grover spam / BK spam / evie spam etc is included in accuracy, thing is you seems to want to make a complex thing out of thin air while it is just really easy to calculate, just count the hit (AoE included) or miss and make a percentage, thats how accy is calculated in fps, and it would be an indicator I would really like to have.

It wouldnt solve all the problems tho, because with damage falloff you cant really get "real" dps out of accy * theoritical damage.

I do admit tho that buck is on paper the less damaging type, and in many hands he's, so thats his tradeoff and I'm not for a nerf, but you also must realise that a flank is not supposed to deal much dps, he's supposed to have high kills / minute (finishing wounded players, taking some 1V1), and in this category I'm pretty sure Buck is not the last flanker around.

Again I might be wrong, if I have time I'll take the spreadsheet dratahasu had pulled off from guru and try to calculate some stats.

Maybe I did go a bit too in depth with my analysis. But my point still stands, a game like this doesn't really benefit from an Acc stat. Also, 90%+ accuracy isn't that hard in a game with broken hit-boxes. When you have someone like Cassie who launches fridges off her crossbow and Buck with a hit-box the size of a freight train, It's quite easy to achieve high accuracy.

Atlecx
01-11-2017, 08:33 AM
I play Buck and he absolutely needs that much health and a heal to survive. He has very little damage and has to be extremely close to even do damage.

EpplZ
01-11-2017, 12:26 PM
Also, 90%+ accuracy isn't that hard in a game with broken hit-boxes. When you have someone like Cassie who launches fridges off her crossbow and Buck with a hit-box the size of a freight train, It's quite easy to achieve high accuracy.

I'll agree on this part for sure ^^