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View Full Version : Mal'Damba Stunlock Fix Suggestion



Arcie
12-09-2016, 05:46 PM
Hey everyone! I love Mal'Damba! He is by far my favorite support to play. Unfortunately, I, and many others, feel his reload/stun mechanic needs a bit of an adjustment. Below are my three suggestions to resolve this issue because no character should have a guaranteed stun lock, especially not a healer.


1) Diminishing returns: Most MOBA style games have this. Add in diminishing returns on stunning someone within a certain time frame. Example: Mal'Damba hits Makoa with the stun inflicting the full stun. As soon as Makoa comes out of the stun, he gets hit by Grumpy Bomb. Since the first stun was within X amount of time of the Grumpy Bomb, the Grumpy Bomb's stun on Makoa is halved. As soon as that finishes, Makoa gets pinned against a wall by Sha Lin's knockback arrow. Since he is still within X amount of time, that stun is halved again (quartered).

Pros: Fixes Mal'Damba for sure! These returns could be tweaked easily for overall balance. This could also be extended to other forms of hard CC such as Poppy Bomb and Chicken Bomb, so getting chickened while already stunned would halve the duration of the Chicken status or in the case of the Poppy Bomb, halve the distance you fly.

Cons: Takes away some of the reward for solid team play by lessening the effect of timing stuns on priority targets.


2) Push the effect back in the clip: What I mean by this is, add in an effect sort of like Viktor's extra damage on the first few shots. Make it so Mal'Damba's stun only goes off on the last 2 or 3 shots in the clip. This way, if you reload with 1 or 2 shots out, it's just a standard reload. If you use most of your clip and reload, you get the stun shot. Side suggestion, since the stun is less common in this mode, it might be better to tweak the animation to better show when the stun will fire and maybe give it an easier trajectory to determine. Right now, it's strange to shoot the reload, but it works because you can spam it almost.

Pros: Rewards more careful Mal'Damba play, causing the player to pay attention to shots in clip. High end Mal'Damba players will be able to count the shots accurately and know exactly when to pull off that perfect reload.

Cons: Newer players may find the mechanic more difficult to work with and the reload stun will end up being, for the majority of players, a lucky effect instead of a planned gameplay style.


3) Stun Duration based on clip location: So, this is my favorite of the ideas I came up with. Make it so the stun duration is based on how many shots into the clip you are. You could have a .2 second stun per shot spent. At 6 shots spent, it would be a 1.2 second stun. Obviously, these numbers are for demonstrative purposes and not meant to be thought out.

Pros: Strategy for how you use the reload is made more prevalent. A shoot, reload strategy is more of an interrupt where as trying to save up for that big play, keeping your clip at 1 shot left, is a situationally viable playstyle. This gives a little more versatility to his kit and allows him to focus more on the support, giving that desperately needed interrupt or the planned out long stun as needed.

Cons: Takes the skill level of the character up.


As always, looking forward to responses, thoughts, etc. I can't wait to see the people who respond with "Mal'Damba is perfect, get gud, blah blah blah"... Final note on that, Mal'Damba building max reload speed to spam the stun is not what the intention of his design was. He is the only character with a direct heal. He has a great AoE heal. Allowing this stun-lock is forcing his playstyle to only be a viable pick with that at the center of his build.

NekonataM
12-09-2016, 06:30 PM
I love you, you're the nicest Mal'damba's player I've ever met. I like your second suggestion the most.

I play with tanks, that's why I really hate that stunlock.

LoboSora
12-09-2016, 07:09 PM
I main Mal'damba, and honestly, he is the best support character out there (biased).

I think he excels at supporting his team. Not only by the insane amount of direct heals he can do, but stunning the enemies and helping to cap.

HOWEVER! i think that the stun is way too exploitable and makes the character way to easy. I don't think being good at Mal'damba is too much rewarding because of how easy and troll-ish he can be with the stuns.

There is that fact of "Mal'damba shouldn't be stunning all the time, and those who do so are hurting the tank because they aren't healing". But still, people are all stunning everyone out there and its a bit frustrating.

My idea is pretty close to your 3rd idea, but i thought about adding more to it.

Mal'damba can be the first character to have more uniqueness to his shots.

I thought about a system that would make the person choose what kinda of thing he would want to do on 1v1 with Damba.

I had an idea where the venom shots would build up. How? The more you shoot the more damage it does due to "venom getting strong at each shot". Like, each shot within a seconds in the same character stake the damage.

Something like. 450 for the first shot, then 480-500-530-560-600. And stays at 600 till the clip is empty.

However the shots means that the snake have less venom by the end. So a full stun would be viable only in the second Shot, then the stun would lose it's time the more you shot, and when reaching 600 damage the shot don't stun at all.

This way players would have to choose on building up damage, or just stun without being able to do much damage.

I guess that this isn't much of a balance idea, but i'd like to see more unique playstyles in this game.

TL;DR; Mal'damba needs a balance on his Stun and should have some tweaks in his damage for more uniquiness.

Azurion
12-09-2016, 07:21 PM
Ive never seen balance idea that precise, im not used to get stunlock by maldamba, but its mean to think about a fast reload loadout and stun them for infinite of time xD +1 , and your ideas dosnt rip off mal damba at all !

Lavtekk
12-09-2016, 07:30 PM
4) Buy Resilence.

Azurion
12-09-2016, 07:33 PM
4) Buy Resilence.

take resilliance to counter a troll build is kinda bad since haven or blast sheild can counter a whole team lol

ProfDrMahler
12-09-2016, 10:39 PM
take resilliance to counter a troll build is kinda bad since haven or blast sheild can counter a whole team lol

resilence accy isnt that like a troll pick i mean look against bk its works rly well and if they have mal damba and bk on the team you counter baicly "NOT in dmg" they skills

Knightenstein
12-09-2016, 10:59 PM
As a tank usually an overall investment in Blast Shields or Haven is the ideal pick to actually do their job yknow. TANK.
Because everyone stacks up and picks on the tanks first and foremost.
And since Resilience is the same type of blue Burn card as Haven or Blast shields, the frontline usually can't invest in that, or they'll get ripped apart by all the rest of the enemy team. Even if the Damage champions can afford to invest in resilience.
It's the frontline champions that usually get bullied by the stuns too. That's alright but Ruckus VS Mal'damba is just plain ridiculous. No chance to react or flee at all once you get stunned and then keeps getting hit and stunned by Mal'damba until death.

So I really like the ideas and suggestions of the original poster of this thread.

sneak310
12-10-2016, 12:54 AM
resilence accy isnt that like a troll pick i mean look against bk its works rly well and if they have mal damba and bk on the team you counter baicly "NOT in dmg" they skills

He didn't say it doesn't work well or that it's a troll pick.. he said "picking that to COUNTER A TROLL BUILD", being the mal'damba.

@op - I prefer option #1 because anything to reduce the heavy amount of CC in any game is a great thing.

rixinthemix
12-10-2016, 01:07 AM
Resilience is a bad pick for frontliners if the enemy team has someone who has good burst damage, like Kinessa, Sha Lin, Cassie, Evie or maybe even Andro if he can do his headshots right. Sure, you've taken care of most of the CC duration, but you still get flinched, and flinching is just as bad as getting pinned down your position if you take full damage off their attacks.

The only situation where Resilience (especially Res 3) is good for frontliners is when the team has been taking care of the CC dealers (which is mostly BK and Damba) and the Resilience card is for making sure that ultimates don't turn the tables to the other team.

Leraje
12-10-2016, 01:48 AM
How about creating some space between Mal'Damba and you when your shield is down ? Especially if he bought Deft Hands and got Snake Pit in his deck. It is actually quite difficult to land the snake on a front liner's face when he's too far away and absolutely impossible to do when he is behind cover.

Also if you are being stun locked it means that Mal'Damba does not heal his teammates, no heal from Ritual Magic for him except the Gourd and/or Items. It is perfect opportunity for your team to take him down, then push back the rest of team who just lost valuable sustain.

In conclusion the problem is not the snake. If your team fail to see that the venomous reptile keeps landing on your nose every 1 sec and don't do a thing about it they have failed at having game sense. Therefore take time to discuss the serious matter of how much you hate eating frigid scales while attempting to do your thing or else the entire team will fail to win the game. All because of a good old King Cobra. SsssSSsss !

TL;DR : Get Good and talk to your team.

Arcie
12-10-2016, 05:56 AM
How about creating some space between Mal'Damba and you when your shield is down ? Especially if he bought Deft Hands and got Snake Pit in his deck. It is actually quite difficult to land the snake on a front liner's face when he's too far away and absolutely impossible to do when he is behind cover.

Also if you are being stun locked it means that Mal'Damba does not heal his teammates, no heal from Ritual Magic for him except the Gourd and/or Items. It is perfect opportunity for your team to take him down, then push back the rest of team who just lost valuable sustain.

In conclusion the problem is not the snake. If your team fail to see that the venomous reptile keeps landing on your nose every 1 sec and don't do a thing about it they have failed at having game sense. Therefore take time to discuss the serious matter of how much you hate eating frigid scales while attempting to do your thing or else the entire team will fail to win the game. All because of a good old King Cobra. SsssSSsss !

TL;DR : Get Good and talk to your team.

Well, I thought about taking your comments seriously, but then you gave your "elitist attitude, know nothing of game design or balance" TL;DR crap. The issue here is the design for Mal'Damba was not, I can pretty much guarantee, to be a permanent stun lock. As you said, a Mal'Damba focusing on stun locking players isn't healing and thus not fitting the role of support. Also, it's not just the tank who gets targeted. Hitting a Ying is a dead healer, for example. This is an unintended consequence of the developers not fully testing out the characters before they release them. It's not about getting good. Yes, resilience is a valid counterpick to Mal'Damba due to the reload stun and the fear, but it should be a choice and not a requirement due to a broken mechanic on the character. It's really that simple.

Mundal
12-10-2016, 08:13 AM
take resilliance to counter a troll build is kinda bad since haven or blast sheild can counter a whole team lol

I have done that too just to counter his stun locking and it sucks, it is basically a nightmare for tanks esp Ruckus and makoa. most of the time i have seen damba nando combo , while nando shields up damba just spams from behind. The stun duration should be based on how many ammos left, if less ammos left then most stun or the snake should just slow down the enemy. Or , there should be a window before he could stun the same target again like 2-3 seconds time.

FumbleBunny
12-10-2016, 11:00 AM
What really confuses me is that Hi-Rez apparently didn't see this coming... I mean the guy has a card that adds up to +20% reload speed and Deft Hands can add as much as +60% on top of that.

I mean, there's no possible way anyone might abuse that to stunlock in 1v1... right? Right.

Mundal
12-10-2016, 11:28 AM
What really confuses me is that Hi-Rez apparently didn't see this coming... I mean the guy has a card that adds up to +20% reload speed and Deft Hands can add as much as +60% on top of that.

I mean, there's no possible way anyone might abuse that to stunlock in 1v1... right? Right.

I don't think they even think much about the abilities they give before releasing a champion. Even if the thought of something like " what if people started abusing this ability..." crosses their mind there would be less unbalancing components in the game than it is now. It baffles me that this game has been around for a year now and we are still struggling with balance issues what about new maps, game modes etc.
The only other f2p i have played from the very beginning was warframe, the game underwent some radical changes and new additions within just 2-3 months of its release and a year later it was a totally different game. I have also played games like hawken, loadout but they didn't survive that long. Lol i even played tribes ascend for a short while a friend i made on Killing floor tried to get me into it a year or so later i asked if he still plays that game, he said it died long ago.

Ducktor
12-10-2016, 11:41 AM
If you are constantly being stunned and dying because you are stunned you should buy resilience. Haven and Blast shields are not better picks if the reason you are dying is stuns. I always wait to buy a blue as a tank if I see a Maldamba on the other team with a stun lock build. Also, as a person who plays tanks a lot, every tank except ruckus has cards that reduce CC, have builds prepared with these cards in them!

Honestly I'm more afraid of a healing mal'damba than a stun mal'damba because once you buy resilience the game becomes a 4 v 5 with the enemy mal'damba effectively wasting his time.

Leraje
12-10-2016, 12:14 PM
Well, I thought about taking your comments seriously, but then you gave your "elitist attitude, know nothing of game design or balance" TL;DR crap.

So I get a point but you reject it because of my innocent taunt ? Sorry for hurting your feelings son.

But I do not change my mind, I play Mal'Damba with Snake Pit II. But always pick Defense Items and/or Chronos ability before picking Deft Hands (If I even deems it necessary). I don't stun lock when I'm able to do it when the full team is here. It is absolutely retarded, as I said earlier I could be dead meat in no time.

In fact I found the stun snake really useful to counter flank catching him and his team off guard. How many time did I survived an Evie or an Androxus agression because of it ? A lot ! Only Buck gets the upper hand with his monstruous health pool.
Explain to me how he will even attempt trying to survive without this trick up in his sleeve ? Slither away just to get caught up again by the soaring witch or the neither stepping demon, waiting his fate in his AoE heal now that his only CC ability, except the ult', is nerfed to the bone ? I fear it's not much.

I say it again, deal with it. The snake stun is an awesome feature that should remain unchanged.

Arcie
12-10-2016, 04:17 PM
So I get a point but you reject it because of my innocent taunt ? Sorry for hurting your feelings son.

You will notice, I still responded to your "point".


But I do not change my mind, I play Mal'Damba with Snake Pit II. But always pick Defense Items and/or Chronos ability before picking Deft Hands (If I even deems it necessary). I don't stun lock when I'm able to do it when the full team is here. It is absolutely retarded, as I said earlier I could be dead meat in no time.

In fact I found the stun snake really useful to counter flank catching him and his team off guard. How many time did I survived an Evie or an Androxus agression because of it ? A lot ! Only Buck gets the upper hand with his monstruous health pool.
Explain to me how he will even attempt trying to survive without this trick up in his sleeve ? Slither away just to get caught up again by the soaring witch or the neither stepping demon, waiting his fate in his AoE heal now that his only CC ability, except the ult', is nerfed to the bone ? I fear it's not much.

I say it again, deal with it. The snake stun is an awesome feature that should remain unchanged.

First off, I am not saying the snake stun should be taken out, only modified to be less of a build focus for Mal'Damba. It should be a mechanism which rewards skilled gameplay and not spamming left click/R over and over again. With any of my suggestions, the ability could still be used to counter flankers, it would just require more planning and coordination. With the first idea, it would mean that you couldn't just hold the flanker till they were dead, but that you could buy some time for your team to help out or for you to slither behind the tanks shield. With the second and third suggestions, it would mean that you would need to keep your clip at one shot left and save it if you know there is a pesky flanker you need to be prepared for.

I am requesting they make Mal'Damba require players to "get gud" instead of just spam two buttons to shut down any champion in the game. I was in a match, solo queue, and on Makoa. Every time I tried to get on the point, I was stun locked to death or the Mal'Damba would start stunning the healer so I'd pull him, just to be stun locked to death. It is too hard of a counter to a number of characters.

If you believe my suggestions would "nerf to the bone" the stun snake, then you obviously aren't good at games like this. Forcing players to think about the decisions they make is what makes MOBA-esque games great. It's not TF2, where any character can run in, shoot a bunch, die, and come back without any penalty. Skill is necessary to be able to make the correct decisions, and the decision not to reload can be just as important as the decision to run from a fight. Creating a kit where the reload mechanic requires more planning creates a rewarding character for any skilled player to sink their teeth into. The great Mal'Damba players will be separated from the mediocre by how effective they are with the stun skill. Teams will coordinate that stun to land 2 or maybe 3 stuns on a particularly difficult champion by stacking multiple character abilities together. If you can't handle a character which requires skill, you might want to go play Overwatch or TF2.

Also, the argument that you really like the skill does not actually provide any balance reason to keep it.

Leraje
12-10-2016, 07:05 PM
Okay I will then explain my point on your suggestions.


1) Diminishing returns [...] Add in diminishing returns on stunning someone within a certain time frame. Example: Mal'Damba hits Makoa with the stun inflicting the full stun. As soon as Makoa comes out of the stun, he gets hit by Grumpy Bomb. Since the first stun was within X amount of time of the Grumpy Bomb, the Grumpy Bomb's stun on Makoa is halved. As soon as that finishes, Makoa gets pinned against a wall by Sha Lin's knockback arrow. Since he is still within X amount of time, that stun is halved again (quartered).

Bad idea, since it requires in your scenario a good team coordination which must be rewarded. And if a team pull something like this they all are on cooldown now and less dangerous foes, it is just good play.

This suggestion is too punishing for other stunning champions existing and to come since only Mal'Damba has the ability to "stunlock".


2) Push the effect back in the clip [...] Make it so Mal'Damba's stun only goes off on the last 2 or 3 shots in the clip.

The stun snake is an opportunity to cease, and the window is often really short but that could change everything in a second if the snake lands. If Mal'Damba needs to unload his weapon before even thinking using it there is no use for it at all.


3) Stun Duration based on clip location

That is a cool idea, but it would be too punishing for him if he's the target of a strong shot flank like Evie or Androxus as he will not be able to CC them long enough most of the time for getting the heck away from this threat.


If you believe my suggestions would "nerf to the bone" the stun snake
In conclusion. Yes sir, I think it would.

Also
Forcing players to think about the decisions they make is what makes MOBA-esque games great.
Are you new to teamplay game ? This is call game sense, and all of these so called games requires to master it to get to the top. The thing MOBA's type brings to the table is "know your champions".

Arcie
12-12-2016, 01:50 AM
1)

Bad idea, since it requires in your scenario a good team coordination which must be rewarded. And if a team pull something like this they all are on cooldown now and less dangerous foes, it is just good play.

It doesn't require good team coordination, it limits the effectiveness of it. Diminishing returns on stuns exist in most MOBA-esque games. The idea simply being that someone can't be stunned within an X second window for a full stun duration more than once. My point being that the main negative to this route is that it takes away from comboing CC abilities between characters as well as nerfing the stun lock on Mal'Damba.

2)

This suggestion is too punishing for other stunning champions existing and to come since only Mal'Damba has the ability to "stunlock".

The skill would come in knowing where you are in the clip. Burn shots in the downtime to keep your clip within stun range. Be ready and don't fire at everything that moves, instead saving your clip's location for the stun.


The stun snake is an opportunity to cease, and the window is often really short but that could change everything in a second if the snake lands. If Mal'Damba needs to unload his weapon before even thinking using it there is no use for it at all.

The stun snake is a skill which is currently exploitable using a max reload speed build. It takes it from being a skill which requires skill to use and land, to a skill which allows for a cheesy stun lock which shouldn't be in the game in the first place.

3)

That is a cool idea, but it would be too punishing for him if he's the target of a strong shot flank like Evie or Androxus as he will not be able to CC them long enough most of the time for getting the heck away from this threat.

Again, if you are worried about a flanker, keep the clip at one shot left and be ready to reload to stun. At one shot out, it could be used in other situations as a simple interrupt, like slithering behind the Nando/Makoa shield to turn it off. It doesn't prevent the use of the full stun for flank defense, only requires you to prepare for the situation. Leave the clip where you need it to be.


Are you new to teamplay game ? This is call game sense, and all of these so called games requires to master it to get to the top. The thing MOBA's type brings to the table is "know your champions".

Sure, that's a great way to look at it, if you are a casual player. Competitive players make decisions based on the situation. It's not entirely about knowing the champions, it's knowing your cooldowns, your reload speed, your shots in the clip, everything about your champion. Evie is a more difficult character to play well because you have to know how long you have to blink back, what your distance is, when to jump out of the ice block to not die horribly, etc. Most players can't effectively use her because of the movement skills and the spacial awareness required to keep everything in mind when deciding to teleport or fly or freeze. Mal'Damba's stun should be a skill like that which rewards careful gameplay, not just spamming reload.