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View Full Version : Balance front line and supports the right way



Karoxil
11-30-2016, 05:34 PM
I have been maining front line and support in competitive mode because that is the style of play I enjoy. I quickly jumped up through the ranking with about a 70% winrate. Then hit OB37 with the wrecker buff. My recent winrate plummeted to about 35% with a daily losstreak of between 4 to 9 games.

One of the main reasons why I get most of my losses is because the players on my team do not know how to itemize. For instance we are against an aoe comp, they buy haven, we are vs 2 supports or front liners, they buy aggression and reload speed. Meanwhile the enemy team cauterize, cauterize, wrecker.

The problem is that cauterize and wrecker are so strong and cheap that they are a hard counter and completely shut you down and nullify your role entirely. So if a damage dealer wants to counter a tank or healer they have a hard counter option, but what if you are a tank and want to counter a damage dealer? Is there a +250% shield amount card in opposition to wrecker, or a 90% damage reduction card just like the 90% healing reduction on cauterize 3? No, and I don't think there should be either.

I would like to see cauterize and wrecker brought in line with the rest of the burn cards. It is not aggression that is underpowered, it is those two that are so overpowered. Most games are decided by which team has bought the most aggression and wrecker cards, not on how well they play the game.

Combine a matchmaker that wants you to carry 4 average players that don't even know how to itemize right, with an enemy team that hard counters your front line or support pick with burn cards, and there is nothing you can do to win. So now in this state of the game you are forced to just play damage or flank roles if you want to win, since there are no overpowered cards to hard counter you out of the game.

Now obviously wrecker and cauterize exist in this game for a reason: front line and support stacking is too strong without them. So this must be addressed, but rather than applying a quick fix that breaks the game in a different way via burn cards, the champions themselves need to be balanced. If tanks are shielding too much, reduce their shield amounts. If healers are healing too much reduce their heals, or survivability etc.

The solution: Nerf wrecker, cauterize AND front line, support champions.
Because an arms race that ends in 90% counter just isn't fun or balanced at all.

Ravuh
11-30-2016, 05:40 PM
To buy said items to an effective level you need to surpass the expectations of your role position (regardless of which role that is) and then these items help tilt the fight for a team that is out role performing the other team, the same way a champion inside league of legends would carry fights by having much more items then the other team.

You're forgetting that is a Arena FPS/Moba hybrid, not Counter Strike or OW.

Karoxil
11-30-2016, 05:46 PM
I'm not saying to remove wrecker and cauterize completely, just that their current values are far stronger than any other burn cards at determining the outcome of a game.

RogueRifler
11-30-2016, 06:45 PM
Cauterize is definitely fine. Most people see 90% and forget about the 2 sec duration or rejuvenation. So if someone has Cauterize 3, for the same amount you can buy Rejuvenate 2 and Haven 2 (assuming the person with cauterize is direct damage). So in combat against this person without a shield or anything you're receiving 37.5% effective healing. Rejuvinate gives you 30% and you take 80% less damage. This is even better as a FL as your shield stops additional applications of cauterize and you'll be healing at 120%. Furthermore cauterize doesn't stack in effect so it potentially gives less benefit the more people on your team that buy it. Late game Haven 3 plus Rejuvenate 3 gives 57% effective healing when hit by Cauterize 3.

Wrecker is sort of in the same position. It can be overbought and doesn't grant a broad effect useful against the majority of the enemy team like Haven or Blast Shields. It's there for damage dealers securing the point and can be used to negate a deathball of tanks.

As for the relative balance of these items compared to others, they seem to stack up. Haven and Blast Shields are very powerful. Certain builds require Chronos or Nimble. Rejuvenate, Kill to Heal, Life Rip, and Veteran are good reactive options, not usually first picks. Master Riding and Resilience are niche items but in certain situations are almost required. Morale Boost is great in the early game on champions with damage/cc ultimates.

It's hard to compare them given their distinct effects, but in no matchup have I insta locked an item without looking at the enemy team unless I had a specific card build that required Chronos.

Karoxil
12-01-2016, 06:37 AM
Except when the enemy has wrecker and cauterize the front line shields dont last longer than half a second, then the cauterize is applied and boom goes your front liner. At this point rejuvenate isn't even going to help you either since your support has already been taken out by the enemy flank with cauterize, completely unable to heal himself since rejuvenate doesnt work for your own heals. Not that even a full strength heal can out heal focus fire from a single damage dealer in the first place (except with grohk's broken card).

Rejuvenate in fact just promotes 2 support gameplay even more. But when you get 2 front line champs now unless you are against very poor players (ie. ones that don't buy wrecker or cauterize) you have already lost the game.

I have played a few games where we have full offense teams and these are usually stomps since the front line and healers have no chance to stay alive vs that much damage, without being able to heal or shield. You simply kill the enemy team then take the point after.

So if you could take one rank 3 card into a game, which one would be more beneficial than wrecker or cauterize?

FumbleBunny
12-01-2016, 10:14 AM
Cauterize is definitely fine. Most people see 90% and forget about the 2 sec duration or rejuvenation.

Yeeahh... except Cauterize essentially counters all the green cards at once. So by buying a green card, you are only partially countering Cauterize. And no green card gets anywhere +90% effectiveness.

I don't think there is a problem with Cauterize currently, but that's only because of the cost of upgrading and the duration. The numbers are pretty damn high when weighted against the fact that Cauterize is a counter to 4 different cards at once.

RogueRifler
12-01-2016, 01:48 PM
Yeeahh... except Cauterize essentially counters all the green cards at once. So by buying a green card, you are only partially countering Cauterize. And no green card gets anywhere +90% effectiveness.

I don't think there is a problem with Cauterize currently, but that's only because of the cost of upgrading and the duration. The numbers are pretty damn high when weighted against the fact that Cauterize is a counter to 4 different cards at once.

Cauterize by definition does nothing against veteran. If you are being affected by cauterize you are in combat. Rejuvenate is more of a counter pick against cauterize. Yes you heal 1.3x faster not being affected by cauterize but when you are affected by cauterize 3 you are healing 4x the rate with rejuvenate 3 than you would be healing without it. It is true that cauterize can absolutely nullify the effects of Life Rip and Kill to Heal in 1v1s.

Again the point is that the 90% effectiveness is only true when you are being affected by cauterize (taking damage) and being healed. I would be very interested to see what the average % healing prevented by that item is. Without that knowledge I think this will turn into a vacuous theoretical war of proposed circumstances and counter circumstances.

Given that healing always stacks, an item like this seems necessary to prevent the OW conundrum where healers can out heal dps characters.

ArchmageMC
12-01-2016, 03:16 PM
The problem with frontliners is Sanctuary giving them an additional 1000-2000 health depending on the frontliner in addition to their defensive cards. Having nearly an entire heroes worth of extra health makes them difficult to deal with hence all their nerfs.

So why not just remove sanctuary and fix the problem at its root? This'll also nerf Viktor and Cassie and Androxus as they wont be able to bring themselves up an entire tier of survivability with it. (Taking 3 projectiles to kill instead of 2 for example)