PDA

View Full Version : Let's talk about agression, cauterize and the overall ofensive damage class.



getsmartish
11-25-2016, 10:41 AM
Like I said in the title I'm gonna be starting this post to generate discussion around the "red" item class. In my opinion, this is the most broken and (generally) the worst item class. Not only that, but Hirez doesn't seem interested in balancing it, mainly due to the recent wrecker buff and the fact there is no cauterize nerf yet. This hurts the classes that (in my opinion) require actual team play and benificts other classes (just watch pro play, tanks are used as flankers and you don't see any healers except Ying). Has a tank/support main, I think it hurts certain champions just so that others (flanks) can dominate every single battle.
Well, this was the summary of my opinion, be sure to leave yours bellow.

P.S. Sorry for my English.

LyonsOrder
11-25-2016, 10:42 AM
There is actually a counter to Cauterize, unlike Wrecker, which you can't do anything about.

Tsuraika
11-25-2016, 10:48 AM
Like I said in the title I'm gonna be starting this post to generate discussion around the "red" item class. In my opinion, this is the most broken and (generally) the worst item class. Not only that, but Hirez doesn't seem interested in balancing it, mainly due to the recent wrecker buff and the fact there is no cauterize nerf yet. This hurts the classes that (in my opinion) require actual team play and benificts other classes (just watch pro play, tanks are used as flankers and you don't see any healers except Ying). Has a tank/support main, I think it hurts certain champions just so that others (flanks) can dominate every single battle.
Well, this was the summary of my opinion, be sure to leave yours bellow.

P.S. Sorry for my English.

I'm a tank main too. I agree with you to an extent. I think that the devs are probably internally working on a big update that will really shake things up, that's just my suspicion anyway, given the lack of changes and such in recent patches.

getsmartish
11-25-2016, 11:51 AM
There is actually a counter to Cauterize, unlike Wrecker, which you can't do anything about.

Yes, there is a card that counters cauterize, which is rejuvenate, but 30% increased healing vs 90% decreased one only makes it to roughly 60% decresed healing, and note that not everybody picks rejuvenate (or at least upgrades it).

getsmartish
11-25-2016, 11:56 AM
I'm a tank main too. I agree with you to an extent. I think that the devs are probably internally working on a big update that will really shake things up, that's just my suspicion anyway, given the lack of changes and such in recent patches.
Honestly, I really hope they do and that they bring back all healers because (with the exception of deft hands) the entire damage class is either a meme (agression) or in needs of being nerfed.

Azurion
11-25-2016, 01:51 PM
even with all those on , Ruckus stay a dayum tanky dude lol

Ravuh
11-25-2016, 04:11 PM
How about we talk about the irony of your gamer-tag and spelling instead.

getsmartish
11-26-2016, 05:16 AM
How about we talk about the irony of your gamer-tag and spelling instead.
Welp, I got roasted.

Eurorial
11-26-2016, 01:28 PM
My guess is that HiRez wanted frontliners (Can we stop calling 'em tanks?) to have less staying power on the central point in Siege. Every second that the frontliner can guard their team is a second the enemy team cant gain capture progress, whether by capping the point themselves or being a contester to the enemy frontliner. Ideally, supports and frontliners work in tandem to hold the point, while damage and flankers handle enemy damage, flankers, and supports.

This is when Burn Cards/Items come into play. If you play a damage class and see your team's frontliner struggle to keep/take the point, you'll logically buy Wrecker to turn the fight against the enemy frontliner, and smart players will buy the right Items to counter the enemy right from the start (2 frontliner comp crumbles under Wrecker, 2 healer comp struggles against Cauterize, Barik+Ying/Grohk countered by a mix of Bulldozer and Wrecker)

Now, Cauterize, Wrecker, and Bulldozer are undoubtedly and clearly counters to the enemy team, but where do Aggression and Deft Hands fit in? Aggression is a 5/10/15% weapon damage boost and the noobtrap of Items. Deft Hands is useful for Buck, who can abuse the faster reload time to achive a greater effective rate of fire, but not really an essential part of any other champ's toolkit and definitely not a counterpick. These two items, while definitely the most offensive oriented, are the most ineffective of the bunch.

With this "Items are counters" philosophy in mind, we can see that only a few cards arent direct counters to enemy abilities. In fact, there's only five i can think of:
-Aggression is just a lame damage boost and overall useless compared to other Offense Items. It is not a counter to Haven, because Haven itself is a counter to teams whose damage and flankers consist of only direct damage and is not meant to compete with Aggression. It should be removed.

-Deft Hands is the same idea as Aggression, a minimal dps boost that only really benefits flankers. Regardless, its the only real choice for flankers in the Offense category besides Cauterize. It should be kept.

-Chronos isn't a counter to anything, but rather the only card i ever buy as a frontliner/support champ in the Utility category. Cooldown reduction is nonetheless strong and seems to be intended to give an edge to a smart frontliner in frontline v. frontline fights. It should be kept.

-Master Riding is redundant when mounts cant be summoned at will. It serves a minimal role in helping champa get to rhe objective faster but is weak compared to Chronos and Morale Boost. It should be removed.

- Morale Boost isn't a counter to anything except for champs whose ults counter other ults (Fernando v. Drogoz for example). It nonetheless screws with ultimate ability balance and is almost as much noob trap as Aggression. It should be removed.

Overall, removing noob traps could help with bad Item picks, but it all comes down to individual player knowledge. Even if Aggression is removed, who can say a noob will pick Wrecker against a shield-heavy comp? There should be more efforts made to educate new players about the Items, esp in the tutorial but also in casual matches. More experienced players should also advise their teammates on Item picks.

ABucket
12-02-2016, 09:49 AM
With this "Items are counters" philosophy in mind, we can see that only a few cards arent direct counters to enemy abilities. In fact, there's only five i can think of:
-Aggression is just a lame damage boost and overall useless compared to other Offense Items. It is not a counter to Haven, because Haven itself is a counter to teams whose damage and flankers consist of only direct damage and is not meant to compete with Aggression. It should be removed.

-Deft Hands is the same idea as Aggression, a minimal dps boost that only really benefits flankers. Regardless, its the only real choice for flankers in the Offense category besides Cauterize. It should be kept.

-Chronos isn't a counter to anything, but rather the only card i ever buy as a frontliner/support champ in the Utility category. Cooldown reduction is nonetheless strong and seems to be intended to give an edge to a smart frontliner in frontline v. frontline fights. It should be kept.

-Master Riding is redundant when mounts cant be summoned at will. It serves a minimal role in helping champa get to rhe objective faster but is weak compared to Chronos and Morale Boost. It should be removed.

- Morale Boost isn't a counter to anything except for champs whose ults counter other ults (Fernando v. Drogoz for example). It nonetheless screws with ultimate ability balance and is almost as much noob trap as Aggression. It should be removed.

Overall, removing noob traps could help with bad Item picks, but it all comes down to individual player knowledge. Even if Aggression is removed, who can say a noob will pick Wrecker against a shield-heavy comp? There should be more efforts made to educate new players about the Items, esp in the tutorial but also in casual matches. More experienced players should also advise their teammates on Item picks.
I agree with a lot of what you said, but I feel that Master Rider and Morale Boost (no matter how situational) should be kept.

From what I've read from higher level player and my own experience, master rider is really helpful for a Frontline to get set up on the point before anyone else, especially Batik. It's the difference between playing offensively and playing defensively most of the midfight. It's also a quick way to get to that overtime kart for a spur of the moment buy.

Morale Boost is something I know less about, but I have seen some players suggest purchasing it if that champion has a very good ult (like Grover). I think it should stay, even if it's just for variety

mieuu
12-02-2016, 11:42 AM
I was under the impression that Morale Boost is chosen very frequently by DPS that have ultimates like Cassie, which are less situational/able to be misused--is that not the case?

LyonsOrder
12-02-2016, 11:44 AM
I was under the impression that Morale Boost is chosen very frequently by DPS that have ultimates like Cassie, which are less situational/able to be misused--is that not the case?

Imagine a Viktor or Andro that has Morale Boost III. They would be getting their ultimates every few minutes, making point contesting extremely hard for the other team.

TriggerSmile
12-02-2016, 03:12 PM
Well I do have a small proposal about the changes to the offensive items.

Bulldozer and Deft Hands should left alone since they good for current place.
Wrecker's price should be increased to 400/800/1200 credits or revert it back to normal because it was too powerful to point where shields are like wet paper towels front of Damage Champions.
Cauterize's price should be increase to 400/800/1200 or reduce the healing reduction from 30%/60%/90% to 25%/50%/75% well this item alone counters most of the healing items and a whole class of champions (plus Buck).
Aggression... isn't this the troll card? Either way reduce the price from 400/800/1200 to 300/600/900 AND increase from 5%/10%/15% to 10%/20%/30% for it to be good, because this card is almost pretty much useless.

As a Damage Champions player (the most common group of dumba*ses or cheaters) I allow would end just using three Offensive Items Bulldozer, Cauterize, and Wrecker which times I ended completely wiping good team compositions with low priced items. Bulldozer is a rather situational card but very good card, but it doesn't completely counter a enemy team completely. However Cauterize and Wrecker just mows down Frontlines and Supports. To be honest it's ugly to look at.

ProfDrMahler
12-02-2016, 03:48 PM
Well I do have a small proposal about the changes to the offensive items.

Bulldozer and Deft Hands should left alone since they good for current place.
Wrecker's price should be increased to 400/800/1200 credits or revert it back to normal because it was too powerful to point where shields are like wet paper towels front of Damage Champions.
Cauterize's price should be increase to 400/800/1200 or reduce the healing reduction from 30%/60%/90% to 25%/50%/75% well this item alone counters most of the healing items and a whole class of champions (plus Buck).
Agression... isn't this the troll card? Either way reduce the price from 400/800/1200 to 300/600/900 AND increase from 5%/10%/15% to 10%/20%/30% for it to be good, because this card is almost pretty much useless.

As a Damage Champions player (the most common group of dumba*ses or cheaters) I allow would end just using three Offensive Items Bulldozer, Cauterize, and Wrecker which times I ended completely wiping good team compositions with low priced items. Bulldozer is a rather situational card but very good card, but it doesn't completely counter a enemy team completely. However Cauterize and Wrecker just mows down Frontlines and Supports. To be honest it's ugly to look at.

i agree with everything expect 1 think the agression there is a other thread thats based 2 change the hole agression 2 anti air wich makes drogoz evie and androx think twice 2 unsing it

TriggerSmile
12-02-2016, 04:09 PM
i agree with everything expect 1 think the agression there is a other thread thats based 2 change the hole agression 2 anti air wich makes drogoz evie and androx think twice 2 unsing it

An Anti-Air Option sound cool, but even then Anti-Air sound like a completely different Offensive item than Aggression. Which is a straight up Damage Boost to all everything, unless a good majority agrees that Aggression should be omitted from the game.

ProfDrMahler
12-02-2016, 05:30 PM
An Anti-Air Option sound cool, but even then Anti-Air sound like a completely different Offensive item than Aggression. Which is a straight up Damage Boost to all everything, unless a good majority agrees that Aggression should be omitted from the game.

anti air goes only active by skill using example: evies flying drogozs flying androx flying, bucks jump, grovers high jump wep, kinessas wrong air teleport etc just skills wich let you basicly fly in the air not getting punshed for jumping

edit: i think that makes cessie even stronger then...

FieryRobot
12-04-2016, 11:03 AM
I think it''s stupid how many people pick aggression when it's basically just a waste of credits. Out of the red section I think cauterise is the most useful, then wrecker if you're going against a frontliner like Barik or Fernando.

Does anyone else find it annoying that you can only pick one of the same colour? When I play Barik I really want chronos and master riding.

RogueRifler
12-04-2016, 11:48 AM
Aggression is useful under certain edge cases. One being that everyone locks in Haven and you're playing a blast DPS or Evie. Another being the enemy team has a Cassie and as an Andro you want to be able to two shot her with your ultimate. I think that it's a bad item because it is not clear when it is actually useful to most of the player base. Buffing its damage to 10/20/30 is a bad idea as it would effectively give the winning team a damage advantage (if they have Aggro 2 and the losing team has Haven 1 for instance).

I still think we need numbers on Cauterize, it's not clear how much healing it is actually preventing.

Wrecker needs to be looked at. Given how the damage bleed mechanics work, there is no point to invest in shield cards as Front Liners. A Cassie with Wrecker 2 who dodge rolls and shoots a champion with a 1k overshield will not only destroy the shield, but will do full damage and bonus damage to other champion. A Cassie with Wrecker 2 will destroy a Ruckus overshield in 2 shots and do 500 dmg to the Ruckus as well with the second shot.

Most of the other items are fine. Almost all of them are useful under certain circumstances. Illuminate is the major exception, but I think that will change as the champion roster increases size.