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View Full Version : Cauterize way too overpowered.



Palorith
11-19-2016, 04:30 AM
As a support main, naturally I pay more attention to game factors that affect supports the most, in this case, its cauterize. Cauterize is one of those underrated cards that is highly situational, but when used in those situations, it is broken as hell, and here's why.
Cauterize is one of the cheaper aggression cards whose cost increases in multiples of 300, which as you may expect probably isn't that good. However, at level 2 or 3, it becomes insanely broken once heals start dropping to 40% or 10% effectiveness. By that point, supports might as well be free credits.
To put it into perspective, Ying ult suddenly becomes a measly 20 HP per .5 seconds, or how Grover ult is minimized to 250 per second. I suspect that cauterize may apply to even life steal, but I have yet to test this.
Ridiculously, cauterize applies to a champion's weapon shots, and anybody can tell what is wrong with that. Champions with AOE or extremely rapid weapon shots can easily solo-carry under the radar with cauterize. I had my fair share of Pips and Grohks stomping our team with cauterize, and it was not pleasant.
Another colossal factor that makes cauterize so unbalanced is the 2-second duration on it. With the previous statement about champion weapon shots, you can see why a Grohk looking across our team can get us all slaughtered. Resilience at first seemed to be our only solace from the horrors of cauterize, but surprise! It doesn't (learned it the hard way).
With that being said, I have a few suggestions on how to nerf cauterize. One method is to keep the 2-second duration on cauterize, but nerf the reduced healing effect per upgrade to at most 50% at max level. Another would be to keep cauterize at a fixed rate of reduced healing, but upgrading the card raises the reduced healing duration. Either way, I suggest that you increase the price of Cauterize regardless of the nerfs you put on it, because it can easily shut down lifesteal, supports, and heals for 300-1800 credits. Lastly, make resilience work against cauterize, since it already doesn't (mini suggestion, let people sell cards so teams can get resilience should some cauterize monster come by). Its a card people don't use often because obviously reload speed and more raw damage is also strong, but when used correctly it'll make almost anyone a solo-carry.

Raviollius
11-19-2016, 05:57 AM
Resilience at first seemed to be our only solace from the horrors of cauterize, but surprise! It doesn't (learned it the hard way).
Rejuvenation isn't reduced by cauterize, ever. So you can always be healed by 40% with Rejuv 3 while under the effects of Cauterize 3, or by 130% if you're healed outside that 2 seconds duration. For heros like Pip, Cauterize isn't that bad since they can burst heal the moment the effect drops off.


With that being said, I have a few suggestions on how to nerf cauterize. One method is to keep the 2-second duration on cauterize, but nerf the reduced healing effect per upgrade to at most 50% at max level.
The thing you're missing is that Cauterize isn't the problem, but a bandaid. It's simply not possible to beat a 2 support team who know what they are doing without it.

Hell, try to beat Pip/Ying/Ruckus/Fernando/Buck without Cauterize II+. It's simply not possible, unless the skill level differs greatly.

LookGooD
11-19-2016, 07:06 AM
I agree. I don't play sups too much but I think Cauterize %90 is too much OP for only 300-600-900 credits. maybe a nerf to %75 at cauterize lv3 (25-50-75) would be fine. or higher the price.

EvieIV
11-19-2016, 09:45 AM
Rejuvenation isn't reduced by cauterize, ever. So you can always be healed by 40% with Rejuv 3 while under the effects of Cauterize 3, or by 130% if you're healed outside that 2 seconds duration. For heros like Pip, Cauterize isn't that bad since they can burst heal the moment the effect drops off.


The thing you're missing is that Cauterize isn't the problem, but a bandaid. It's simply not possible to beat a 2 support team who know what they are doing without it.

Hell, try to beat Pip/Ying/Ruckus/Fernando/Buck without Cauterize II+. It's simply not possible, unless the skill level differs greatly.

problem is, try beating any team with that comp if they have cauterize 3. it's simply not possible again

Mundal
11-19-2016, 09:48 AM
Maybe its just me but i notice very little difference until i max the cauterize only then i feel the enemy team struggle to heal.

RogueRifler
11-19-2016, 10:40 AM
I think cauterize is fine where it is. The key aspect is that it has a 2 sec duration so to have one person continually apply it to another team means that one person is in LoS of the other team all the time. If the other team has any focus potential, that person is dead. It takes multiple people to invest in it and shields naturally counter cauterize. Furthermore Rejuvenate and Haven (assuming direct damage on cauterize) have a multiplicative effect. Lets say Viktor has Cauterize III and you have Rejuvenate III and Haven II, if someone applies a 10hp heal to you, you receive 4hp and it takes 5 damage (4 / .8) to offset that healing. So with the right items, heals still have a >50% effectiveness in the face of cauterize. I think people are just underestimating the power of Rejuvenate.

Without Cauterize and Wrecker being where they are at right now, front liner death balls would become a meta problem. I think this is why we haven't seen more of those characters released yet as it would mess up pro draft play significantly.

FenexDragonis
11-20-2016, 08:42 PM
hi-rez just needs to rework the rejuvenate card from "healing you receive from other players is increased by X" to "healing you give to other players is increased by X" problem solved... as agression was INTENDED (keyword) to be a counter to blast shields and haven... if they reworked rejuvenate to be a counter to cauterize it would solve the problem

Drathahasu
11-21-2016, 05:17 AM
The thing with cauterize is, that you can literally spam it as Viktor.
You only need one tiny bullet to hit an enemy and boom - he's cauterized.

ButtonSmasher
11-21-2016, 05:24 AM
As a support main, naturally I pay more attention to game factors that affect supports the most, in this case, its cauterize. Cauterize is one of those underrated cards that is highly situational, but when used in those situations, it is broken as hell, and here's why.
Cauterize is one of the cheaper aggression cards whose cost increases in multiples of 300, which as you may expect probably isn't that good. However, at level 2 or 3, it becomes insanely broken once heals start dropping to 40% or 10% effectiveness. By that point, supports might as well be free credits.
To put it into perspective, Ying ult suddenly becomes a measly 20 HP per .5 seconds, or how Grover ult is minimized to 250 per second. I suspect that cauterize may apply to even life steal, but I have yet to test this.
Ridiculously, cauterize applies to a champion's weapon shots, and anybody can tell what is wrong with that. Champions with AOE or extremely rapid weapon shots can easily solo-carry under the radar with cauterize. I had my fair share of Pips and Grohks stomping our team with cauterize, and it was not pleasant.
Another colossal factor that makes cauterize so unbalanced is the 2-second duration on it. With the previous statement about champion weapon shots, you can see why a Grohk looking across our team can get us all slaughtered. Resilience at first seemed to be our only solace from the horrors of cauterize, but surprise! It doesn't (learned it the hard way).
With that being said, I have a few suggestions on how to nerf cauterize. One method is to keep the 2-second duration on cauterize, but nerf the reduced healing effect per upgrade to at most 50% at max level. Another would be to keep cauterize at a fixed rate of reduced healing, but upgrading the card raises the reduced healing duration. Either way, I suggest that you increase the price of Cauterize regardless of the nerfs you put on it, because it can easily shut down lifesteal, supports, and heals for 300-1800 credits. Lastly, make resilience work against cauterize, since it already doesn't (mini suggestion, let people sell cards so teams can get resilience should some cauterize monster come by). Its a card people don't use often because obviously reload speed and more raw damage is also strong, but when used correctly it'll make almost anyone a solo-carry.

Well, if we're gonna look at this card we can better look at all cards... Because most of them are way to OP or Broken... I rather like a kind of resets for the cards because not only this one is ''broken'' for some, You have wrecker, reload speed, Because hell every card that a front liner uses (As me) is for some broken... But yeah, then you have PIP that can easily counter Fernando if you're skilled enough (Jumping over him going behind him)... So i don't really think this cards needs a punishment... Maybe a little change?

ButtonSmasher
11-21-2016, 05:24 AM
The thing with cauterize is, that you can literally spam it as Viktor.
You only need one tiny bullet to hit an enemy and boom - he's cauterized.

Don't forget fernando, He will cancel your healing if you're in his flames and flameball makes it even worse.

ButtonSmasher
11-21-2016, 05:25 AM
hi-rez just needs to rework the rejuvenate card from "healing you receive from other players is increased by X" to "healing you give to other players is increased by X" problem solved... as agression was INTENDED (keyword) to be a counter to blast shields and haven... if they reworked rejuvenate to be a counter to cauterize it would solve the problem

Tbh i always carry rejuvenate with me... Maybe an idea for a new card?

ButtonSmasher
11-21-2016, 05:27 AM
problem is, try beating any team with that comp if they have cauterize 3. it's simply not possible again

It is possible for Fernando... I've played against a lot of people with that perk card... And i can actaully kill them with a well placed fireball and carrying cauterize myself.

eetee
11-21-2016, 11:08 PM
Rejuvenation isn't reduced by cauterize, ever. So you can always be healed by 40% with Rejuv 3 while under the effects of Cauterize 3, or by 130% if you're healed outside that 2 seconds duration. For heros like Pip, Cauterize isn't that bad since they can burst heal the moment the effect drops off.


The thing you're missing is that Cauterize isn't the problem, but a bandaid. It's simply not possible to beat a 2 support team who know what they are doing without it.

Hell, try to beat Pip/Ying/Ruckus/Fernando/Buck without Cauterize II+. It's simply not possible, unless the skill level differs greatly.

On this note... are you saying item and card interactions with themselves are additive rather than multiplicative? I.e. Cauterize III used on someone with Rejuvenate III whose getting heals means their net healing is (1-0.9+0.3)*(gross_external_heal) rather than [(1-0.9)*(1+0.3)*(gross_external_heal)]. So with additive interactions the net heal rate is 60% of the gross heal rate rather than the 13% with multiplicative interactions between the cards.
Cause that would make Rejuvenate is not as bad as I originally thought if this is the case... I still think Cauterize is OP for the price though, but doesn't need to be nerfed as much as I originally thought...

Also are all card/item interactions additive? Cause I would have thought some one would have abused Skye's Nimble Fingers IV (40% reload speed) with Deft Fingers III (60% reload speed) if that were the case...

Fiftagorn
11-22-2016, 03:45 AM
Cauterize III can be made a bit more expensive.