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View Full Version : [DISCUSSION] Wrecker "Burn" Card too good?(Deal 50%/100%/150% more damage to shields)



Mjolnir1337
11-01-2016, 03:22 PM
Just wanted to have discussion around this. Ive been trying to actually play a tank Nando (not the Flank-Nando) and Barik, even Ruckus too. But man its SO hard to try and push a point and be effective in the slightest once someone grabs Wrecker I and once they get Wrecker II its game over. Ive done it against Nandos/Bariks and you can melt their shields SO easily, especially as a BK/Viktor/Ruckus....

I know Burn cards are intended to be game changing and how to balance the "meta" but just seems that card literally "hard counters" the class too well - which I believe is ONE of the things that contributes to people trying to play a Flank-Nando...

Now with the Charge nerf, that added a few seconds. That hurt mobility and our ability to play a tank as many Tank Nandos use the card that gives damage shield after charge. Heck, id even be willing to give up some "uptime" on shield by making it last 1-2 seconds shorter if Wrecker was halved (25%/50%/75%) or something...

ThatOthell159
11-01-2016, 03:30 PM
Without this card, tanks will absolutely crush and win every game (unless against another team with full tanks) in PAYLOAD MODE.

ACorpse
11-01-2016, 04:13 PM
Damage dealers scale up in late game while tanks and healers scale down with wrecker and cauterize coming into play. It means that tactics have to change as the game progresses. Not necessarily a bad thing. If you go in tank-heavy then you can expect to win the early caps but if the fight drags out you'll be on the back foot.

Edit: I play a lot of frontline and while I certainly wouldn't scream blue murder if Wrecker got a nerf, I don't really think it needs it.

tymandude1
11-01-2016, 05:58 PM
Here's the problem the way scaling works in this game makes tanks disgustingly strong early and pretty bad late. If Wrecker was to be nerfed you would have to nerf tanks in the early game. Personally I'm in favor of a smoother transition throughout the game instead of the large peaks and drops so I'm in favor of nerfing tanks and nerfing Wrecker.

Tsuraika
11-01-2016, 07:06 PM
Wrecker needs a bit of a nerf and some other items need a bit of a buff.

MajorMolesto
11-02-2016, 03:55 AM
My problem with wrecker is that overkill from shields transfer to your hp.
-You're a Fernando, 1hp on your shield left
-Androxus with wrecker III is shooting you
-your shield has 1hp
-You have 1200hp left
-Androxus shoots your shield for 1550 damage
-ur ded

DIS IZ STOOPEED!
http://tf2chan.net/inception/src/138404982578.png

Mjolnir1337
11-02-2016, 07:13 AM
Here's the problem the way scaling works in this game makes tanks disgustingly strong early and pretty bad late. If Wrecker was to be nerfed you would have to nerf tanks in the early game. Personally I'm in favor of a smoother transition throughout the game instead of the large peaks and drops so I'm in favor of nerfing tanks and nerfing Wrecker.

I am fine with this. The only 3 impacted by this are Ruckus, Barik, Fernando.

Ruckus imo is fine. His shield isnt anything special, doesnt last all that long, cant really solo push the front lines.

Fernando, as I already said, maybe cut 1-2 seconds off his shield uptime.
Barik, same deal, maybe cut 1-2 seconds off his uptime.

The issue I have is that if someone is smart and gets Wrecker II+ its game over. As a fernando/barik thats all you have. People dont realize that its just that easy to hard counter with that card AND the card is super cheap too... 50%/100%/150% is just too good. I think it needs to be cut inhalf and then like @MajorMolesto said, any "extra" damage that breaks shield should be lost, not Xferred to HP.

SilentSorrow
11-02-2016, 07:24 AM
People are already stacking frontlines, so it seems it's perfectly fine. You have to have something that keeps them in check. Same goes with cauterize and supports.

Mites
11-02-2016, 08:14 AM
Imo wrecker is not overpowered, in fact i'd say that cauterize is too weak. The fact that everyone is able to heal a bit with those green card, + the fact that some tank (ruckus and barik especialy) rely on healing as much as heal, make me think that cauterize is too strong (or wrecker too weak but i don't think so).
Why i think this? just look at top ranked setup
-2 or even 3 dps? OK.
2 tank ? OK
2 flank ? OK
2 heal? you'll only see that on really few kind of games because you need :
-to have tank that do not rely on self heal (fernando/makoa)
-to not have buck
-and one of the 2 heal must be pip which isn't really a heal.

Maybe player in top elo are all wrong, but i think there is more to it, cauterize is just stronger than wrecker and by far.
The sad part is now pip can't even be picked, because you can't soloheal with him, and you're not likely to be able to pick him as secondary heal because you'll already have 2-3 char in your team (usualy a heal and one of your tank) that will produce enough heal/selfheal to make the enemy take cauterize.

Mjolnir1337
11-02-2016, 10:08 AM
Imo wrecker is not overpowered, in fact i'd say that cauterize is too weak. The fact that everyone is able to heal a bit with those green card, + the fact that some tank (ruckus and barik especialy) rely on healing as much as heal, make me think that cauterize is too strong (or wrecker too weak but i don't think so).
Why i think this? just look at top ranked setup
-2 or even 3 dps? OK.
2 tank ? OK
2 flank ? OK
2 heal? you'll only see that on really few kind of games because you need :
-to have tank that do not rely on self heal (fernando/makoa)
-to not have buck
-and one of the 2 heal must be pip which isn't really a heal.

Maybe player in top elo are all wrong, but i think there is more to it, cauterize is just stronger than wrecker and by far.
The sad part is now pip can't even be picked, because you can't soloheal with him, and you're not likely to be able to pick him as secondary heal because you'll already have 2-3 char in your team (usualy a heal and one of your tank) that will produce enough heal/selfheal to make the enemy take cauterize.

Im lost, you are saying you never see 2 healer games? Or that you always see 2 healer games? I did my current feedback 2 days ago and said the same thing Pip is a joke and shouldnt even be called a healer.

That said, if you RARELY see 2 healers, then cauterize isnt strong enough... If it were, you WOULD see 2 healers. But maybe another issue there is that since you CAN nuke someone down in just a few seconds as an Androx or Bombking as examples, its better to take them, than to take a second healer.

Part of that too is just the healer options. Once you get past Ying, Grohk, and now Maldamba, who are you going to take as a second healer? You dont really have a choice.

Most games I see people stack frontlines BECAUSE 1 tank just doesnt cut it. 1 tank is too weak, so players are forced to stack 2 tanks. Then you lose kill power so what I have seen is 2 DPS. Usually a bombking/Viktor and then a flank like Androx

You only see 1 healer because a Ying can keep everyone alive and adding a second healer means you lose too much kill power. Losing a second tank means you cant hold any point for more than a few seconds...

You need to make more "main" tanks have damage prevention and wrecker does the opposite. This is why you see Flank-Nandos rather than tank-nandos. Because he cant tank worth crap past the first round once people grab a Wrecker.

Also not everyone needs to stack the same cards. Get 1-2 with a Cauterize, get 1-2 with a Wrecker and its GG.

But point being, if you want to see more games with 2 healers, then you need to make 1 tank have the capability to hold nodes longer. Then you might see more double healers but that will only also happen if you buff the two weaker healers....

tomcat86
11-02-2016, 04:46 PM
this whole problem can actually be fixed easily with several steps.

1) nerf all role based credit bonus to 50% and nerf the capture reward to 200
2) nerf all shields by default by 10% across the board
3) nerf all healing across the board by 10%, but only the healing from supports, the healing like barik turrets, ruckus, and so on is unaffected
4) nerf wrecker to 35/70/105%
5) nerf cauterize to 23/46/70

so without wrecker you have 10% less shield
with wrecker 1 you have now 5% more shield than before
with wrecker 2 you now have 20% more shield than before

with no cauterize you have 10% less heal
with caut 1 you have 7% less heal
with caut 2 you have 4% more heal
with caut 3 you have 10% more heal

And for aggression:
if you nerf the cost to 200 from 300, it gets 33% more value aka making it more like 7% than 5% effective for the money cost so its pickable

Just smooth out the power of wrecker and cauterize with some base changes

its fine to be able to counter tanks and healers, but making them useless is another thing

CookieLady666
11-02-2016, 05:39 PM
I'm sorry mate, but if Wrecker was weaker, the Barik-Fernando duo woult faceroll every single match. It's an item as situational as every other, and before you max it, there's plenty of time for camping at the start.

This is what distinguished late game from early game. Less heals, less shields, more dynamic and more outplay. There has to be this one point in the game, where you - as a Fernando - should start to actually think when to use a shield at the best moment, instead of mindlessly popping it the second it goes off cooldown to feel invincible.

Why do you even complain about something that's equal and available for everyone? Both teams have literally the same items to buy at their disposal. When your shields become easy to take down, so do the enemy's shields. When your heals become weak, so do the enemy's heals. At this point, you have less ability shielding, but you also have Haven/Blast Shields III to make up for it, don't you? Well, if you don't, you now know what you are doing wrong.

Buy defensive stats. Learn to cycle your abilities. Everyone is growing stronger over the course of the game. Play to your newfound strenghts instead of relying upon your shield entirely. That's just poor gameplay on your side.

Mjolnir1337
11-02-2016, 06:52 PM
I'm sorry mate, but if Wrecker was weaker, the Barik-Fernando duo woult faceroll every single match. It's an item as situational as every other, and before you max it, there's plenty of time for camping at the start.

This is what distinguished late game from early game. Less heals, less shields, more dynamic and more outplay. There has to be this one point in the game, where you - as a Fernando - should start to actually think when to use a shield at the best moment, instead of mindlessly popping it the second it goes off cooldown to feel invincible.

Why do you even complain about something that's equal and available for everyone? Both teams have literally the same items to buy at their disposal. When your shields become easy to take down, so do the enemy's shields. When your heals become weak, so do the enemy's heals. At this point, you have less ability shielding, but you also have Haven/Blast Shields III to make up for it, don't you? Well, if you don't, you now know what you are doing wrong.

Buy defensive stats. Learn to cycle your abilities. Everyone is growing stronger over the course of the game. Play to your newfound strenghts instead of relying upon your shield entirely. That's just poor gameplay on your side.

Ummm... You cant have 2 fernandos in competitive. So, if your team has a Barik or Fernando and their team uses Mokoa all they need to do is grab Wrecker on one character and it basically moots out your tank ability.

So its not as if their shields become weaker, this would be true only in mirrors...

Also because they only allow for solo/duo Q, apparently I just play with bad people because no amount of me spamming "Get Wrecker guys" makes people actually want to get Wrecker when up against a Fernando or Barik or Ruckus...

Its not that "everyone is growing stronger" when your entire ability (shield/barrier) is completely gone. Its not like I can take a burn card to INCREASE my shields HP, or DECREASE the damage my shield takes to counter it.

The second you get a bombking to get Wrecker II, its game over. You might as well run a Flank-Nando because the SECOND you pop your shield, it goes down... Wrecker II makes each mine explode for 1800 damage, you get a Ruckus who gets Wrecker II, your shield melts in 2 seconds. Ive been in games with a Ruckus+Viktor who both got Wrecker II, my shield dropped in <2 seconds when I got to the center to cap. Then its a LONG CD to bring it back up.

I completely support Wrecker making shield WEAKER, but the entire benefit of Fernando and Barik is their barrier. Barik is a LITTLE better off with Turrets, but when you have a close range slow tank, ALL you have is Shield. This is precisely why Fernando players play a Flank-Nando. Because at early stage in game Fernando is great, late stage he is worthless. Where as Flank-Nando CAN still be good against Wrecker because he is picking off players 1v1.

@tomcat86 has a great suggestion.
Nerf all shield abilities "base" so its weaker in early stage. But nerf Wrecker and Cauterize so that later you ahve more healing than now but they still impact the game.

tymandude1
11-02-2016, 09:33 PM
I am fine with this. The only 3 impacted by this are Ruckus, Barik, Fernando.

Ruckus imo is fine. His shield isnt anything special, doesnt last all that long, cant really solo push the front lines.

Fernando, as I already said, maybe cut 1-2 seconds off his shield uptime.
Barik, same deal, maybe cut 1-2 seconds off his uptime.

The issue I have is that if someone is smart and gets Wrecker II+ its game over. As a fernando/barik thats all you have. People dont realize that its just that easy to hard counter with that card AND the card is super cheap too... 50%/100%/150% is just too good. I think it needs to be cut inhalf and then like @MajorMolesto said, any "extra" damage that breaks shield should be lost, not Xferred to HP.

I want to see tanks early game nerfed and less spikey transition throughout the game. I'm down with that. This would also address the issue of Aggro Tanks being the most viable tanks. Right now due to how cards work and how items work overall you are much better off going for a more "offtank" style build focusing on damage and chasing down the backlines. It's so strong because in the early game tanks are monsters and if you go this type of build you fall off way less than a shield focused Nando build or a Shield focused Barik build. It's why you almost always see extremely aggressive styled builds or non shield focused builds in high levels of play (Turret Barik, Fireball Charge Nando, Hook Spin Mako, etc.)

I think this would be really good for the meta overall opening up true main tank options while still allowing for off tank options. In my mind the game should be balanced around having 1 Main Tank, 1 Healer Support, and 1 Damage and the last 2 roles are flexible. Some teams could run double support with a Utility support like Pip, some could run an Off Tank like Hook Makoa Build, some could run a Flanker, some could run extra DPS. I think that's how the meta should be.

CookieLady666
11-03-2016, 10:52 AM
Ummm... You cant have 2 fernandos in competitive. So, if your team has a Barik or Fernando and their team uses Mokoa all they need to do is grab Wrecker on one character and it basically moots out your tank ability.

So its not as if their shields become weaker, this would be true only in mirrors...

Also because they only allow for solo/duo Q, apparently I just play with bad people because no amount of me spamming "Get Wrecker guys" makes people actually want to get Wrecker when up against a Fernando or Barik or Ruckus...

Its not that "everyone is growing stronger" when your entire ability (shield/barrier) is completely gone. Its not like I can take a burn card to INCREASE my shields HP, or DECREASE the damage my shield takes to counter it.

The second you get a bombking to get Wrecker II, its game over. You might as well run a Flank-Nando because the SECOND you pop your shield, it goes down... Wrecker II makes each mine explode for 1800 damage, you get a Ruckus who gets Wrecker II, your shield melts in 2 seconds. Ive been in games with a Ruckus+Viktor who both got Wrecker II, my shield dropped in <2 seconds when I got to the center to cap. Then its a LONG CD to bring it back up.

If you pick a teamcomp that relies solely on shields, then you sure as hell deserve to be hard-countered with Wrecker III on 3 people. You asked for it.

Your shield is less impactful. But everyone is still getting stronger. Dps deal more damage, ults come up more often, spells have reduced cooldowns, damage reduction kicks in - Just becuase this one, specific shield of yours doesn't get any buffs in particular, doesn't mean no one gets stronger in late. You don't buff your shield, but you can buff yoursef. Just get that godforsaken Haven. It's a whopping 30% damage reduction. Virtually free, because you get SO MUCH money from just sitting on the point in this patch.

I play Fernando a lot. I can see even 3 wreckers at the same time in the enemy team, and you know what? He still works fine. If you charge head first into a group of 5 people, then sure as hell your shield will be taken down. It's supposed to be taken down then. Pop it up when it's smart, not just whenever. Fernando is the strongest point-defender of all the tanks available, and the inability to counter his shields would render him, quite literally, overpowered.

When your shield is on CD, you can Charge. You can Fireball. You can hide behind the obstacles. You can rely on your teammates picking others off and healing you while you're waiting for your shield to go back up. There's So. Many. Options. If you choose to be a sitting duck instead, it's your mistake, not a problem with Fernando. You can also take your shield down as soon as you see it will only melt atm, to have it up faster for the next time - you do know that the cooldown is reduced when you cancel it prematurely, don't you?

As Fernando, you are supposed to have windows of vulnerability.
Why is it so hard to understand that you can't just run an indestructible brick wall whose shield is up 95% of the time, because it's simply a borderline broken concept?

All I see from you is the wish to have an easy, OP strategy to steamroll people with, so you could win a lot without putting any real effort into it.

tomcat86
11-03-2016, 11:50 AM
Like i said, nerf shields baseline as well as shields, but nerf wrecker as well.

i am not only playing paladins, i play overwatch hots, dota and lol and i kinda know how balance of basic abilities in conjunction with enhancing items works.

ANd i can safely say, the current way of basic abilities and the way wrecker/cauterize scale is not intended.

Heroes of the storm had the so called "scaling" changes, the goal of those changes were to make the feel of the game throughout the match more balanced and eliminate spike points and rebalanced from there.

The damage to shields must be higher baseline/shields weaker, so people have fair chance without extra cards to handle it, but in return they shall not have the option to completely nullify a tank
aggression with 5% is obviously to low, and 50% wrecker is obviously too good
i think 30-35% is the correct number, as well as 25% for cauterize per level

you shall not be forced to go wrecker or cauterize by default, you shall take it when it makes sense or you really wanna counter it, but not only does wrecker and cauterize feel mandatory sometimes, they also render the enemy useless after upgrades.

So we have a big gap between THE NEED TO COUNTER, and then at the other hand turning the enemy useless.
Is it really that hard to see that you need to nerf both healing/shields and then also the burn cards?

In dota and lol it is totally fine to "outfarm" an enemy and render him useless, so you can totally go for ignore armor items because in those games its not only who counters who, its also about who outfarms the other.

In this game which is clearly more designed to heroes of the storm and overwatch, the burncards are there to adjust to the enemy/your team, neither to "outfarm" the enemy neither to make someone on their team completely useless.


Its crucial for a tank to survive and shield, but if you get a whooping 150% of that ability less it is easy to see that base ability of the shield, compared to the potential counter options are not in line.

You can either hardcounter tanks shields, or you can play around them


Look at overwatch for a moment, all values in overwatch are roughly 10 times less the value in paladins, damage health and so on.

so reinhardt compared to fernando has baseline double the shield, yet the enemy cant further build up to counter it, and still you can take his shield down.


So without a single point in wrecker his shield is nearly OP, with wrecker his shield is useless

The same for healers, without cauterize they are super stong, wit cauterize they are totally useless.

if you think haven or blase shield are balanced and fair items, it makes you more tanky, but it doenst allow a squishy to be knight parcival megatank himself.


So nerf the shields baseline a bit that teams without wrecker can realistically deal with them, and if you truly wanna counter the shields you can buy wrecker, but if you just can say ok, we play passive round 1 until 1 person has wrecker 2 then he is useless cant be the intended design.

i mean wrecker 2 is DOUBLE the damage against shields, a factor of 2, a factor if 2 would also be from a squishy character to a tank, and this is what wrecker does, it is semi situational but when that case happens, the person where this is aimed is rendered useless.

Where haven/aggression/chronos just improve your character very slightly and is catered in a more general way towards the whole team

Mjolnir1337
11-03-2016, 12:57 PM
SNIP

Completely agree.

Wrecker to make shields useless, and Cauterize to make heals useless are FAR too strong compared to Chronos (as you gave the example).

I too play Reinhardt on OW, and his shield can even be "spammed" but isnt considered "OP" because its not that hard to takedown...

Id be curious if they adjusted both Wrecker and cauterize. They both work slightly different right? Cauterize reduces healing by X%, so if its 25% per level at max it would be "75% less" meaning heals are only 25% as effective.

Chronos at max is 30% shorter CDs.
Haven is 10/20/30% less damage.

So I wonder, if Wrecker should be more like 25%/50%/75% more damage to shields. But have the "base" level of shield nerfed quite a bit (maybe in half?)

Then for healing, rather than having it be a LARGE number and a 2 second duration, what if it were halved but duration doubled:
15/30/45% less healing for 4 seconds?

But I think this also requires some adjustment to healers as well.... By nerfing heals a little bit.

tomcat86
11-03-2016, 04:48 PM
like i said, heals and shields feel quite op without counters, but are useless with counters

where it should be more balanced with and without cards at all


wrecker makes tanks useless cauterize makes heal useless, but chronos or haven feels right, it slightly buffs you vbut doenst make the enemy useless, it reduces enemy dmg by 10%

and while it is clear for every halfway intellignet person that wrecker has to be a higher value than haven because it is way more situational targeted, 50% is a joke, the scaling from not taking it to taking is is just insanely high.

and even it is way too cost efficient becasue you dont require red burn card category as you might wanna get haven anyway, so you dont need to stack it to level 2 for 900 total cost, while it is totally fine to split it on 2 heroes for 600 gold, cause they combined will deal the same dmg for less total credits, 50% more dmg on shields for nothing everyone can take who is not fernando or buck, even the healers dps from 600 of pip, 900 ying 850 grokh and 900 mal damba is high enough to generate sufficient effects with wrecker for jsut 300 points.

Mjolnir1337
11-04-2016, 01:31 PM
like i said, heals and shields feel quite op without counters, but are useless with counters

where it should be more balanced with and without cards at all


wrecker makes tanks useless cauterize makes heal useless, but chronos or haven feels right, it slightly buffs you vbut doenst make the enemy useless, it reduces enemy dmg by 10%

and while it is clear for every halfway intellignet person that wrecker has to be a higher value than haven because it is way more situational targeted, 50% is a joke, the scaling from not taking it to taking is is just insanely high.

and even it is way too cost efficient becasue you dont require red burn card category as you might wanna get haven anyway, so you dont need to stack it to level 2 for 900 total cost, while it is totally fine to split it on 2 heroes for 600 gold, cause they combined will deal the same dmg for less total credits, 50% more dmg on shields for nothing everyone can take who is not fernando or buck, even the healers dps from 600 of pip, 900 ying 850 grokh and 900 mal damba is high enough to generate sufficient effects with wrecker for jsut 300 points.

I was just thinking about this, and I think some of the issue is that shield/barrier has such a LONG cooldown. So when you grab Wrecker I/II/III it shreds the "uptime" of your long cooldown. This feels ESPECIALLY painful.

So while I do want to see a change to wrecker since its "scaling" seems to be an issue, I think a POSSBILE counter to this is to just give each barrier/shield tank a card that says "for every 2000 damage Barrier takes, reduces the CD of barrier by 1 seconds"

rank IV would be: 8000 damage and 4 seconds.

Since NOW if your shield DID take a beating like that with Wrecker, for those who want to try and "counter it" with their build, you can shave 4 seconds off barrier, meaning you can more easily take cover and get it back up faster. But this gives Barik/Ruckus/Fernando a choice now, if they want to try and counter Wrecker, at the cost of something else. For many Nando players this might cost the 40% Fireball reduction, or the "charge bubble", etc.

Also, to consider, manytimes as Fernando if players are NOT beating on my shield or I dont have much pressure I will often drop it to go on offensive like fireball/charge etc.

So all this means is I dont think this will create balance problems with having barrier up to soon, I think it gives fernando an option in building TO focus around barrier.

Now you might have issues with people trying to "perma tank" but barrier does have many counters, like Mokoa hooking Fernando, or any other type of CC breaks it. Not to mention Fernando is useless while using barrier meaning no attacking, and not to mention you give up valuable points to get this card at IV... etc.

Not to mention, there will always be a downtime on barrier... I think the exception would be barik's since the CD starts upon activation but he also has a stationary barrier and half the HP.

For Cauterize, I wonder if instead of nerfing the "severity" further with each card upgrade it INSTEAD increased duration.

So Cauterize 1: Your hits reduce healing by 50% for 2 seconds
Cauterize II: 3 seconds
Cauterize III: 4 seconds.

So this has the effect that I think you were going for, MUCH better at countering heals with rank 1, but rank 3 is now "worse" however with DIFFERENT benefits - it lasts longer but this would only HALVE healing.

The issue I see with Wrecker is there is no way for the TANK to "choose" a counter to make it less impactful to him. Grabbing the card that increases barrier 2000 doesnt do much when you have Wrecker. There is no "burn card" in which you can choose to say "your barrier takes 50% less damage" or whatever.

So you have no way to counter a counter. Which is a problem I see with Cauterize as well as Wrecker.