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Mites
10-24-2016, 09:58 AM
I'd like fernando to have his fireball damage back to 100%, not that i think fernando is to weak, he need to have some nerf elsewhere (i think there is no reason for his health pool to be much greater than makoa for example).
The point is his fireball was the only ability that required a bit of skill, and this is what made the difference between a good and a bad fernando. Atm fernando is a char that is too strong mainly because it does not require any skill, you just M1 everywhere and shield when hp goes down. By nerfing a bit his health or shield (especially shield duration rather than health, he is the only tank that can FORCE you to break his shield) and giving his fireball damage back would make him more interesting to play with/against.

R3DBelmont
10-24-2016, 06:31 PM
His fireball having high damage was making players play the most aggressive Fernando's I had ever seen, they wouldn't even stay on point, they'd just chase enemy players and burn em alive with fireball/flamethrower/chase combo. Nerfing his fireball made him rely more on the damage/flankers on his team while he could focus more on his role, the OB 36 patchnotes also showcase this strongly with his chase skill also being nerfed as well...

Izekio
10-24-2016, 06:57 PM
Please do not forget that his fire ball also reduces healing by 50%. Which makes it so he doesnt need to have cauterize as much as other tanks if they have 2 healers or just one really good healer.

Fernando is not a skill champ. He is just a tad over the skill needed for Victor. Evie and Bombking are skill champs.

FenexDragonis
10-24-2016, 07:36 PM
this thread reads to me like people are crying about not being able to kill hunt with front lines...

Melkia
10-25-2016, 08:45 AM
this thread reads to me like people are crying about not being able to kill hunt with front lines...

The thing is that these changes affects also fernando players who play him "correctly". The more defensive Fernandos use the charge in conjunction with the Safe Travel card to get a small shield for clutch moments, so they didn't only nerf his chasing potential but also his survivability. That's kind of a big deal for a Front Liner...

ProfessorFart
10-25-2016, 09:12 AM
And even with the charge nerf, Fernandos will still be chasing their targets since they can't kill them on the objective and they will also flank and be backline harassers. People will just have to land those fireballs to keep the movement speed boost or even invest in nimble. The nerf to Charge and Heat Transfer don't seem to change a lot in my eyes in terms of his chasing potential. You'll still have players playing a tank as a flanker because he's consistently more effective in being a backline harasser rather than standing on the point with an easily taken down shield. In fact, as long as shields can be outright melted, aggressive Fernandos will always be out there.

So basically we have an unneeded nerf because it's easily worked around and fails to serve its purpose of having Fernando stay on the objective. Want him to stay on the point, they should make it more beneficial for him to be there.

Raviollius
10-25-2016, 12:48 PM
They just did, extra credits for frontlines on the point.

Huro
10-26-2016, 01:05 PM
as a Fernando player, i do fell that he need some kind of harass skill to make people go away from him.

right now he have most the skills to do his job as tank, but as he deal little to no damage most of people just ignore his flamethrower.

his shield get easily melted by top damagers with shield-wreck.

im not saying he need damage essentially, maybe a skill that forces enemies to escape, or a push skill (stronger than his charge, because even with knock back card the charge almost not even move people.) or something.

if you want to go to damage, maybe make the flamethrower damage build up if someone keeps getting hit by it. as i said, the objective is not to make he do actual damage, but to make people go away.

Mites
10-29-2016, 11:17 AM
I'd like to remember that the fireball nerf isn't a flankernando nerf but a tanknado nerf, the multi-hit of the fireball primarily impact fernando that was hitting enemy tank while aiming ranged enemy from the point, flankernando usualy uses his fireball on one enemy, the one he is chasing to catch him with the speed card.
Besides i don't see why you couldn't play fernando as a flanker OR as a tank depending of matchup, basically, he's just a buck with half dmg, half mobility, and much more survivability.
What i'm telling is before when i played fernando, i had focused a lot on my fireball to deal dmg on backline when i was playing it as a tank, now it's is not even worth the pain, i jsut focus on survival jumping everywhere like a retard an click M2 at the right time.

Shalashaska87B
10-29-2016, 11:41 AM
Making Fernando an "assault" character would turn him into an insanely OP paladin. With his great HP amount and the ability to deploy a shield, he only lacks the ability to attack at long range effectively, becoming a Kinessa with 3x the base HP.
No, just no.

I have used him once, just once: the other team lost pretty badly. And I had zero skills with him. Think about what could a "pro" Fernando do along with a good team too. :eek:

Rivx
10-29-2016, 12:30 PM
Please do not forget that his fire ball also reduces healing by 50%. Which makes it so he doesnt need to have cauterize as much as other tanks if they have 2 healers or just one really good healer.

Fernando is not a skill champ. He is just a tad over the skill needed for Victor. Evie and Bombking are skill champs.

He still needs it though, because other red cards are a joke on him and he's the best candidate for it, as he constantly applies it to all enemies in range and allows his teammates to focus on Wrecker and stuff.

Mites
10-29-2016, 01:06 PM
execpt that kinessa deal 1200 dmg at infinite range when fernando deal 400 dps at close range, a buck with half dps half mobility and much better survivability is it op? I don't think so, most dps can deal with him, when you are viktor you can dps him enough to force him shield up (reducing his dmg to 0 before he kills you) when you play cassie it's ultra easy to kite him, when you play pip you counter him hard with the perma slow vs bad mobi skill. fernando is strong, especialy in low level elo because he requires no aim, so when you rush at a bad enemy he won't have the accuracy to drop you fast enough. But at my elo (i'm in the top 50) i can say that i can handle fernando flanker.

What make fernando strong is not his ability to flank, it is his ability to BUY TIME. He has the lowest dps of all char, and can't dps while shield up, but he has huge survivability and just enough mobility to dodge poppy bomb/grympy and some slow projectile.
I'd like a fernando to deal a bit more while being easier to kill, the old fireball was nice because with great skill you could do huge dmg, and with bad skill or if the enemy take care about not lining up, you would deal not much. Imo giving 100% to fireball and nerf his shield (limiting duration and reduce hp a bit) would make him much more fun to play.

It would up damage when you aim well (without making him a much better flanker), and reduce your ability to byu time with shield, besides because you won't be able to count on shield to much, you'll have to be more aggressive to reduce the pressure enemies can deal to you.

The reason that make me think fernando need this change is because he is too strong in noob game, which mean he'll probably be over nerfed like skye was, just because ppl don't know how to handle him. This game has not enough char imo to allow char being totaly useless in competitive (like skye/grover) just to protect noob from being frustrated, I hope HI-REZ realize that, rework skye, and make fernando harder to play before we have no char to play anymore ;)

tymandude1
10-30-2016, 12:58 PM
His fireball having high damage was making players play the most aggressive Fernando's I had ever seen, they wouldn't even stay on point, they'd just chase enemy players and burn em alive with fireball/flamethrower/chase combo. Nerfing his fireball made him rely more on the damage/flankers on his team while he could focus more on his role, the OB 36 patchnotes also showcase this strongly with his chase skill also being nerfed as well...

This guy knows what's up even now the best Fernando build focuses on Fireball and charging into the enemy backlines and just mauling them hardcore with little to no risk due to Veteran combined with aggro cards and aggro playstyle.

The problem is how safe it is to do. If you go aggro on a tank it should be high risk high reward but right now it's low risk high reward.

Mites
10-30-2016, 02:53 PM
it is not low risk high reward, it is low risk low reward. I mean wtf you deal 400 dps, most of skilled dps can handle you 1v1, and if their teamate are not sleeping with a litle help they can completely supress you just by damaging a bit to force shield up.
just to give you na idea, viktor is one of the easiest dps to kill, but he can still deals like 8k dmg before you deal your 1800 dmg (4.5 sec) +400 fireball. forcing you to shield, and allowing him to runaway easy.

(and this calculation suppose that viktor deal 0 damage to you until you are melee which would be quite surprising knowing how easy to hit you are).

tymandude1
10-30-2016, 06:26 PM
it is not low risk high reward, it is low risk low reward. I mean wtf you deal 400 dps, most of skilled dps can handle you 1v1, and if their teamate are not sleeping with a litle help they can completely supress you just by damaging a bit to force shield up.
just to give you na idea, viktor is one of the easiest dps to kill, but he can still deals like 8k dmg before you deal your 1800 dmg (4.5 sec) +400 fireball. forcing you to shield, and allowing him to runaway easy.

(and this calculation suppose that viktor deal 0 damage to you until you are melee which would be quite surprising knowing how easy to hit you are).

Um go and watch any Paladin's Circuit and tell me it's low risk low reward. Literally every team that runs Nando does it.

This is the go too build if you are wondering http://paladins.guru/builds/guides/v/Cf

TheCheesemaster
10-30-2016, 06:38 PM
I agree, fernando needs a cooperative team to be able to be played properly. he doesn't really go for the kills, he's more of a support front liner.

The way he looks (with the oversized armour, shield and giant flamethrower) makes him look out of place when he can't slaughter anybody in 2 seconds.

Arcie
10-31-2016, 05:03 AM
Wow, this thread is pretty useless. Fernando is my main. I love the big guy. He is my Overwatch Roadhog and my Battleborn Montana! The guy I go to in order to help the team out. But like Montana, he has to have a main healer to survive. He has a lot of HP, but his shield is rendered worthless by a Wrecker build on a Victor or Ruckus. His Fireball is a harass skill, meant to penalize players for being out of position. It takes a lot of skill to hit but still does solid damage even after the nerf. It's cooldown can get dropped to under 6 seconds without the in match purchase and the 50% heal reduction on it lasts 3 seconds. He isn't supposed to be able to wipe teams characters with it. It's fine where it is and yes, before it was a bit too strong! It's easy to line up Tank and Healer on the initial point push. Hitting a healer with 900 damage consistently and a 50% damage reduction, it's too much! And if you line up tank, off-tank, healer, we are talking almost dead healer, regardless of which support the other team is running.

Fernando does take skill to play correctly. You have to know your cooldowns, know how to position to keep your back line alive, and call appropriately to the rest of the team what is coming in. Position on Fernando is huge, more so than most characters as he cannot survive on his own. His shield doesn't watch his back and give him an out like Makoa's does. He doesn't have Barik's self-sustainability with heal from turrets. And he can't shield and stack 50% damage reduction to his healer in an AoE on point. He has to be the physical wall between the healer and the damage, because if he is caught on point without the healer, it's time to pray. There is nothing you can do when your healer is gone in a front-line situation except back off point.

His movement is slow, even slower when attacking, and his 12 second base cooldown on Charge really drops his escape chances, even with Launch and Hot Pursuit. Of all of the Front-Liners, he is the best built for it because of his tankiness, and because of his shield, simply because it allows him to protect his support. So, if you can't deal with not doing insane damage on a skill shot and having to settle for decent damage on a skill shot, stop picking Fernando so those of us who know how to play him properly can pick up your slack.

Tsuraika
11-01-2016, 01:51 AM
I think one of the major problems right now is that Fernando is the only "Tank" in the game. I'd regard the others as "Off-tanks" That's one of the reasons people see him as so overpowered.

Arcie
11-01-2016, 06:00 AM
I think one of the major problems right now is that Fernando is the only "Tank" in the game. I'd regard the others as "Off-tanks" That's one of the reasons people see him as so overpowered.

A Barik played well can main-tank very well with the right card build. Same with Makoa. The reason he gets the most flak is because of the previous "Flanknando" builds where he would chase and get kills without being able to be killed himself. I think his fireball is a good punishing skill for lines of enemies coming in. It's not supposed to be insurmountable, but definitely designed to punish. His charge is a good out and can be built to be manageable. His flame thrower emphasizes his focus on point hold by punishing anyone going into Melee range, aka, on the point. And, with a well coordinated team, he can effectively stop any damage ult from killing any ally if they know to stay in when Fernando's ult is up. He is a great kit, in a very comfortable spot. If you don't know how to deal with him, learn to buy in match to counter him. Make sure someone takes Wrecker and make sure that you counter the healing style appropriately because Fernando cannot survive long without a healer if Wrecker is in play.

Mjolnir1337
11-01-2016, 04:10 PM
And even with the charge nerf, Fernandos will still be chasing their targets since they can't kill them on the objective and they will also flank and be backline harassers. People will just have to land those fireballs to keep the movement speed boost or even invest in nimble. The nerf to Charge and Heat Transfer don't seem to change a lot in my eyes in terms of his chasing potential. You'll still have players playing a tank as a flanker because he's consistently more effective in being a backline harasser rather than standing on the point with an easily taken down shield. In fact, as long as shields can be outright melted, aggressive Fernandos will always be out there.

So basically we have an unneeded nerf because it's easily worked around and fails to serve its purpose of having Fernando stay on the objective. Want him to stay on the point, they should make it more beneficial for him to be there.

This 100%. What they need to do is nerf Wrecker. You can literalyl hard counter Fernando on a node WAY too easily with that card. If you are a bomb king, and they have fernando or Barik, you should grab wrecker right off the bat, dealing 1350 per left click to his shield? Itll melt in seconds leaving fernando worthless... Same with Barik who will die even faster.

Wrecker is far too good IMO and needs to be nerfed to like 25%/50%/75% or something. Fernando and Barik and even Ruckus are great, until someone picks Wrecker, then they arent really frontline tanks anymore, just a waste of space.

Why do people in this game never seem to grasp the importance of things like cauterize/wrecker? Everyone goes for the damn 5% more damage.... It makes no sense...

Tsuraika
11-01-2016, 09:22 PM
A Barik played well can main-tank very well with the right card build. Same with Makoa. The reason he gets the most flak is because of the previous "Flanknando" builds where he would chase and get kills without being able to be killed himself. I think his fireball is a good punishing skill for lines of enemies coming in. It's not supposed to be insurmountable, but definitely designed to punish. His charge is a good out and can be built to be manageable. His flame thrower emphasizes his focus on point hold by punishing anyone going into Melee range, aka, on the point. And, with a well coordinated team, he can effectively stop any damage ult from killing any ally if they know to stay in when Fernando's ult is up. He is a great kit, in a very comfortable spot. If you don't know how to deal with him, learn to buy in match to counter him. Make sure someone takes Wrecker and make sure that you counter the healing style appropriately because Fernando cannot survive long without a healer if Wrecker is in play.

Makoa and Barik still aren't on the level of Fern as a main-tank. Yeah I agree, I don't think he's too strong at the moment though, rather that the game needs more main-tanks as opposed to off-tanks.

Rawkh
11-02-2016, 02:57 AM
And even with the charge nerf, Fernandos will still be chasing their targets since they can't kill them on the objective and they will also flank and be backline harassers. People will just have to land those fireballs to keep the movement speed boost or even invest in nimble. The nerf to Charge and Heat Transfer don't seem to change a lot in my eyes in terms of his chasing potential. You'll still have players playing a tank as a flanker because he's consistently more effective in being a backline harasser rather than standing on the point with an easily taken down shield. In fact, as long as shields can be outright melted, aggressive Fernandos will always be out there.

So basically we have an unneeded nerf because it's easily worked around and fails to serve its purpose of having Fernando stay on the objective. Want him to stay on the point, they should make it more beneficial for him to be there.

True that, today i was forced to play Fernando due my team horrible comp + w/o a healer (my barik being a beginner) vs a point dominator team with Barik/Bomb King/Mal'Damba, i HAD to play offensive/deffensive strat to even have a chance to compete, the match turns out being a crazy fast phaced match with crazy come back at the end.


Here's the vid if you wanna watch it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-usY_q-pVtg


As for Aggressive tanks, that shouldn't be so damn penalized, it's just a playstyle, have you ever heard the moto "The best Deffense is a good Offense"?, i think they should stop nerfing Fernando to force him to be on the point all the time, just simply because 1) It would be boring as F**k to just do that, 2) It won't ever be the case 100%, just because the "Tanky" attributes from Fernando aka "Health Pool, Shield" are just destroyed in seconds by a competent enemy team, so that theory of standing on the point from beginning to the end is just retarded.

A good tank role would be applying pressure by being in the frontline forcing the enemy team to split and reposition them selves rather than standing on point, by doing that you open space to your team to push a bit, catch a bad positioned enemy player and clean the point a bit so they can actually stand on it without being melted by aoe dmg and "wrecker", going aggresive IS high risk/high reward, as you see on the video i died several times for doing this, yet im pretty sure that i bought valuable deffensive seconds, forced enemies to use cooldownds and gave my team space to heal up/recover cooldowns, yet as i said a competent team can bring down any tank in seconds, so doing this move is indeed risky.

Im not even a main Fernando, hell im not even a fan of playing a tank role, but i see the character/s more fun to play while being able to be an offensive/deffensive champ than a sitting duck on point.´

Btw check out at the end of the video, how despite the credits earnings for succeful deffense being nerfed, who at the end got the highest amount by "not doing" what it's supposed to do, the game itself is rewarding me for this playstyle.

Also shout out to these accurated Mal'Damba reload stuns, or is the hitbox way to big now, isn't it?

CookieLady666
11-02-2016, 08:08 PM
I disagree. Fernando is in a great spot right now. I started to play him a lot recently and boy is he damn strong. I love this guy.

His Fireball does just enough damage to matter, and it's still powerful vs 3-4 enemies who clutch up. Idk why people complain. His Q-F-Lmb combo can still bring an average squishy down to only few hundred health, which should be enough for a follow up. And if he can actually perform it on multiple people, it basically spells "wipe" for the enemy team.

The card that buff up his Charge are there for a reason. Want a charging, Q-spamming Fernando? Build him like that. You know you can. The Loadout cards are right there. And don't tell me it's unfair because it forces you to drop some great sustain cards, there's only one word for that: Good. You shouldn't have the best of both worlds. It is only fair.

Mjolnir1337
11-02-2016, 08:27 PM
I disagree. Fernando is in a great spot right now. I started to play him a lot recently and boy is he damn strong. I love this guy.

His Fireball does just enough damage to matter, and it's still powerful vs 3-4 enemies who clutch up. Idk why people complain. His Q-F-Lmb combo can still bring an average squishy down to only few hundred health, which should be enough for a follow up. And if he can actually perform it on multiple people, it basically spells "wipe" for the enemy team.

The card that buff up his Charge are there for a reason. Want a charging, Q-spamming Fernando? Build him like that. You know you can. The Loadout cards are right there. And don't tell me it's unfair because it forces you to drop some great sustain cards, there's only one word for that: Good. You shouldn't have the best of both worlds. It is only fair.

Id like to see you say this after playing more competitive matches, a quick glance through your play history, looks like all youve been doing is casual. Most casual games Ive played many are noobs and Fernando feels like a god.. Get to competitive games when people are taking Wrecker, are teaming up just to counter you and GG.

Also looks like your running a semi-flank build, which is maybe why you dont seem to care as much about being "tanky"

Running Incinerate IV, Heat Transfer II, Fearless Leader I, Safe Travel II, and Last Stand III.

CookieLady666
11-03-2016, 11:58 AM
Id like to see you say this after playing more competitive matches, a quick glance through your play history, looks like all youve been doing is casual. Most casual games Ive played many are noobs and Fernando feels like a god.. Get to competitive games when people are taking Wrecker, are teaming up just to counter you and GG.

Also looks like your running a semi-flank build, which is maybe why you dont seem to care as much about being "tanky"

Running Incinerate IV, Heat Transfer II, Fearless Leader I, Safe Travel II, and Last Stand III.

"I checked your last couple matches so your point is invalid now".

Get outta here with this poor pseudo-argument.
Even in Casual matches, I oftentimes get matched with - and against - Diamonds and sometimes even Masters. These people know what to do with Fernando, and know how to counter him.

Quite frankly, I run the full-tank build the most. Another thing you're wrong about.

How about you use actual arguments, instead of spitting judgmental slime at me?

Mjolnir1337
11-03-2016, 02:16 PM
"I checked your last couple matches so your point is invalid now".

Get outta here with this poor pseudo-argument.
Even in Casual matches, I oftentimes get matched with - and against - Diamonds and sometimes even Masters. These people know what to do with Fernando, and know how to counter him.

Quite frankly, I run the full-tank build the most. Another thing you're wrong about.

How about you use actual arguments, instead of spitting judgmental slime at me?

All I am saying is, Ive played Fernando as my "main" as well for a long time. Most casual matches I got in, I felt like a KING! I thought he was the ultimate hero, every team MUST have him etc.

Then I started doing competitive. After a few matches, turns out Fernando isnt all that great. The common theme: Wrecker.

Players get Wrecker and its game over. The last time an enemy team got Wrecker, they had Viktor and Ruckus both have Wrecker II. I got to a node, and was playing my "Tank-Nando" build increasing my shield by 1,500. It went down in 2 seconds. Deleted.

We lost that match because I was the only tank and couldnt hold any front line or any point.

If you play Fernando as a Flank, then yeah he is super strong (which is what I was pointing out). It seems you are playing him MORE as a Flank than a Tank.

The reason the "pros" play him as a flank is because he isnt good as a tank once you get Wrecker.

You might be pro, you might have faced good players, but you wouldnt be saying "he is fine" as you are now, if you have faced what I have when people know how to delete your class with burn cards...

I am NOT saying you are bad, merely saying that our experiences are vastly different and its likely due to how we play and what we play. Ive been almost solely playing competitive and trying to Tank-Nando. You play casual and more a "flank" option. Which is fine. I have a loadout similar to yours that I run for fun too and it IS a ton of fun. In SOME games he feels SUPER strong (when noone counters you).

But if Fernando is good or not, doesnt really come down to how well you play him, but rather how well the enemy counters him. In some cases the "counter" comes from gameplay. In fernandos case, all you need is a good DPS class with Wrecker and he is worthless and you might as well play him as a flank, because you aint gonna be holding ANY points.

MiraculousMango
11-03-2016, 02:29 PM
Fernando is a good choice right now, he is a uber beast in lower level battles, because the peeps don´t know how to counter him, however, when you start to fight higher level peeps, they will mostly own you in a 1 vs 1 (I´m talking about the skilled ones), because Fernando has a very poor mobility, if you damage it enough, he will shield and you can flee or finish it, or even better, one mate can help you.

I saw some circuit videos and Fernando was not the top tier champion, Androxus, Cassies and Evies are uber beasts there, and Fernando gets nerfed every patch, this has to stop.

CookieLady666
11-03-2016, 06:29 PM
All I am saying is, Ive played Fernando as my "main" as well for a long time. Most casual matches I got in, I felt like a KING! I thought he was the ultimate hero, every team MUST have him etc.

Then I started doing competitive. After a few matches, turns out Fernando isnt all that great. The common theme: Wrecker.

Players get Wrecker and its game over. The last time an enemy team got Wrecker, they had Viktor and Ruckus both have Wrecker II. I got to a node, and was playing my "Tank-Nando" build increasing my shield by 1,500. It went down in 2 seconds. Deleted.

We lost that match because I was the only tank and couldnt hold any front line or any point.

If you play Fernando as a Flank, then yeah he is super strong (which is what I was pointing out). It seems you are playing him MORE as a Flank than a Tank.

The reason the "pros" play him as a flank is because he isnt good as a tank once you get Wrecker.

You might be pro, you might have faced good players, but you wouldnt be saying "he is fine" as you are now, if you have faced what I have when people know how to delete your class with burn cards...

I am NOT saying you are bad, merely saying that our experiences are vastly different and its likely due to how we play and what we play. Ive been almost solely playing competitive and trying to Tank-Nando. You play casual and more a "flank" option. Which is fine. I have a loadout similar to yours that I run for fun too and it IS a ton of fun. In SOME games he feels SUPER strong (when noone counters you).

But if Fernando is good or not, doesnt really come down to how well you play him, but rather how well the enemy counters him. In some cases the "counter" comes from gameplay. In fernandos case, all you need is a good DPS class with Wrecker and he is worthless and you might as well play him as a flank, because you aint gonna be holding ANY points.

As Fernando, you are going to see Wrecker. Deal with it. It's a natural counterplay to him - pretty much the only counterplay. Without it, he'd be borderline broken.

You are supposed to tank as much with your shield, as with your health. You have a TON of it. Don't shield on full hp. Wait. Get hit. When you shield, your healers will top you right back off, and all the damage the enemies just dealt will be rendered invalid.

My go-to tank Loadout is: Last Stand IV, Safe Travel IV, Heat Transfer II, Running Start I, Fearless Leader I.
It gives you SO MUCH effective health.

Do the math:
5700HP base
8000 RMB Shield
2-3k Charge Shield - IF you charge more than once, which Heat Transfer and Fearless Leader are for.
2-2,5k HP regen from Last Stand (estimated) - and that's only if you utilize it ONCE.
That's already 18,000+ effective health. And that's still without outside healing and your ult.

In an average teamfight scenario, it can easily take more than a whopping twenty thousand damage per rotation to kill a Fernando. How much tankier do you want him to be to feel satisfied?! Don't be unreasonable.

You know the fun part? This Loadout gives me the highest damage output per match. When you live for so goddamn long, it just adds up. I passed 100,000k dmg count with it (and shielded even more that game). Don't assume by my match history, that because I have high kill count on Fernando, it means I'm flanking with him. No sir. I merely outlive everyone.

So please, stop force-feeding me your wrong conlusion that I flank with him. It's just rude at this point. Imo, "Flankando" is a waste of a good tank. I didn't even know it existed as a thing until I hit up the forum - I always thought people doing that were just stupid and/or didn't understand what Fernando is about.

Yes, I have a hybrid build for when I see my team has low/unreliable damage, we have 2+ tanks, or when the enemy team has a camper comp (Barik, Grover etc.). I also have a "Hot Guy" build focused solely on Fireballing: It's a joke Loadout, and I used it once.

Rawkh
11-03-2016, 06:53 PM
When I play Fernando, I am playing against at least two Wreckers in most of my games. He still does juuust fine. And in competitive he's my go-to tank every time I can pick him, he does an outstanding job.

As Fernando, you are going to see Wrecker. Deal with it. It's a natural counterplay to him - pretty much the only counterplay. Without it, he'd be borderline broken.

You are supposed to tank as much with your shield, as with your health. You have a TON of it. Don't shield on full hp. Wait. Get hit. When you shield, your healers will top you right back off, and all the damage the enemies just dealt will be rendered invalid.

My go-to tank Loadout is: Last Stand IV, Safe Travel IV, Heat Transfer II, Running Start I, Fearless Leader I.
It gives you SO MUCH effective health.

Do the math:
5700HP base
8000 RMB Shield
2-3k Charge Shield - IF you charge more than once, which Heat Transfer and Fearless Leader are for.
2-2,500k HP regen from Last Stand (estimated) - and that's only if you utilize it ONCE.
That's already 18,000+ effective health. And that's still without outside healing and your ult.

In an average teamfight scenario, it can easily take more than a whopping twenty thousand damage to kill a Fernando. How much tankier do you want him to be to feel satisfied?! Don't be unreasonable. If he gets another rotation of spells, and heals back to 100%, it's another 20k. All over again.

You know the fun part? This Loadout gives me the highest damage output per match. When you live for so goddamn long, it just adds up. I passed 100,000k dmg count with it. So don't assume by my match history, that just because I have high kill count on Fernando, it means I'm flanking with him. No sir. I find "Flankando" a waste of a good tank.

Yes, I have a hybrid build for when I see my team has low/unreliable damage, or when the enemy team has a camper comp (Barik, Grover etc.). I also have a "Hot Guy" build focused solely on Fireballing people to oblivion: It's a joke Loadout, and I used it once.

So, basically you described the video i posted above.

Now seriously give this guy a medal, that's how it should be played, i laugh at ppl defining Fernando as a Big Shield and that's it, as i said before, due a competent enemy team picking wrecker 100% against Fernando, Shield becomes a very situational skill, where you just buy seconds (2-4) for yourself or your team to either get cooldowns back up, reposition or heal up a bit, that's it, don't relie THAT much on his shield as the ultimate deffensive tool, offensive/deffensive Fernando is the way to go, using the map to your adv, hiding if needed, going full aggresive if needed just to force the enemy team to focus on you, you buy time for your team to do the work, and sometimes preventing the enemy team to actually do theirs is the best support you can bring to your team, and hell im not even a main Fernando but i can already figure that out.

Mjolnir1337
11-03-2016, 07:53 PM
Do the math:
5700HP base
8000 RMB Shield
2-3k Charge Shield - IF you charge more than once, which Heat Transfer and Fearless Leader are for.
2-2,5k HP regen from Last Stand (estimated) - and that's only if you utilize it ONCE.
That's already 18,000+ effective health. And that's still without outside healing and your ult.
[/I]

You realize this is very false in real play... That 8k shield turns into 6k or 4k with Wrecker I or Wrecker II.

For example, If you have an enemy Viktor each shot dealing 130 damage base + 50 for the first 4 shots with Wrecker II, assume 8k RMB Shield, it would take him 2.9 seconds to bring your entire shield down, by himself. But he usually isnt by himself is he?

Now if you also add an enemy Bomb King, where each LMB deals 1800 damage alone (with Wrecker II), they can combined bring a Fernando shield down in well under 2 seconds.

So say you ARE eating 2-3 seconds of damage with your HP. Maybe you hit 3k and shield up. a competent BK will toss LMBs with Wrecker II on, and then throw his Angry bomb at you, and then toss a few more. Guess what happens. Your shield breaks and you get stunned with 3k HP. Guess how fast you die.

Im telling you man. I used to think Fernando was OP and strong and all the things you are saying, until I started to play competitive matches where you actually have teams who are very smart in how they counter you, he drops INCREDIBLY fast.

Ive broken 100k damage, ive broke 200k shielding neither of those are "major accomplishments". YEs, you can use the map and LOS and use the cart to LOS too. I do all that, I tank with my HP, use Charge to bubble, tank more, shield up as last resort which then also resets your charge CD. Get a competent team with Wrecker II and it wont matter. That 1k bubble you get is eaten up VERY fast, your big shield, gone in a few seconds.

BTW, when you only get 3 second of shielding, even with Last Stand IV, your only healing 300*3 seconds and thats assuming no Cauterize on you, which you will LIKELY have if the team isnt stupid and your taking with your HP.

So you eat damage, shield up, that 3 seconds @ 300/sec turns into maybe <300 in healing + 1 second of 300 (500-600 HP total at BEST).
Your 1k "bubble" from charge turned into 500 with Wrecker II.
Your 8k LMB, turns into 4k with Wrecker II

so all in all your total EHP is much closer to ~10,800. Not 18k+. Sure its "tanky" but considering Charge got a nerf to its CD, it really hurt our "escape" and considering our bubble lands AFTER the charge ends, it hurts escape. Considering Fireball is our only range, we arent much of a threat with tons of pressure on the front lines...

TLDR: Im done trying to convince you man. You can keep on playing casual games, beating players who likely dont eve have 12 rank 4s and dont know how to play classes/metas/burn cards and think he is fine.

He isnt BAD, he just isnt "top tier" when you can counter him with Wrecker. I am NOT saying remove Wrecker either. A good solution was already posted to nerf base shield to then nerf wrecker giving a weaker shield early on, but stronger (in comparison with wrecker) later. I think that is very fair.

MiraculousMango
11-03-2016, 08:00 PM
You realize this is very false in real play... That 8k shield turns into 6k or 4k with Wrecker I or Wrecker II.

For example, If you have an enemy Viktor each shot dealing 130 damage base + 50 for the first 4 shots with Wrecker II, assume 8k RMB Shield, it would take him 2.9 seconds to bring your entire shield down, by himself. But he usually isnt by himself is he?

Now if you also add an enemy Bomb King, where each LMB deals 1800 damage alone (with Wrecker II), they can combined bring a Fernando shield down in well under 2 seconds.

So say you ARE eating 2-3 seconds of damage with your HP. Maybe you hit 3k and shield up. a competent BK will toss LMBs with Wrecker II on, and then throw his Angry bomb at you, and then toss a few more. Guess what happens. Your shield breaks and you get stunned with 3k HP. Guess how fast you die.

Im telling you man. I used to think Fernando was OP and strong and all the things you are saying, until I started to play competitive matches where you actually have teams who are very smart in how they counter you, he drops INCREDIBLY fast.

Ive broken 100k damage, ive broke 200k shielding neither of those are "major accomplishments". YEs, you can use the map and LOS and use the cart to LOS too. I do all that, I tank with my HP, use Charge to bubble, tank more, shield up as last resort which then also resets your charge CD. Get a competent team with Wrecker II and it wont matter. That 1k bubble you get is eaten up VERY fast, your big shield, gone in a few seconds.

BTW, when you only get 3 second of shielding, even with Last Stand IV, your only healing 300*3 seconds and thats assuming no Cauterize on you, which you will LIKELY have if the team isnt stupid and your taking with your HP.

So you eat damage, shield up, that 3 seconds @ 300/sec turns into maybe <300 in healing + 1 second of 300 (500-600 HP total at BEST).
Your 1k "bubble" from charge turned into 500 with Wrecker II.
Your 8k LMB, turns into 4k with Wrecker II

so all in all your total EHP is much closer to ~10,800. Not 18k+. Sure its "tanky" but considering Charge got a nerf to its CD, it really hurt our "escape" and considering our bubble lands AFTER the charge ends, it hurts escape. Considering Fireball is our only range, we arent much of a threat with tons of pressure on the front lines...

TLDR: Im done trying to convince you man. You can keep on playing casual games, beating players who likely dont eve have 12 rank 4s and dont know how to play classes/metas/burn cards and think he is fine.

He isnt BAD, he just isnt "top tier" when you can counter him with Wrecker. I am NOT saying remove Wrecker either. A good solution was already posted to nerf base shield to then nerf wrecker giving a weaker shield early on, but stronger (in comparison with wrecker) later. I think that is very fair.

Entirely true, you become a meat tank when facing competent teams, I myself burn shields like butter when I run Bomb King.

Rawkh
11-03-2016, 08:04 PM
All that math is pretty good and well thought, but you're missing something dude, you're creating a situation where it's like Fernando all by himself vs the entire enemy team, where is your team in that situation?, where's your back up?, your CC?, anything?, idk with who you played competitive, but if you couldn't stand a chance, either your team comp was really weak compared to the enemy team or simply your teammates sucked.

MiraculousMango
11-03-2016, 08:06 PM
All that math is pretty good and well thought, but you're missing something dude, you're creating a situation where it's like Fernando all on his own vs the entire enemy team, where is your team in that situation?, where's your back up?, your CC?, anything?, idk with who you played competitive, but if you couldn't stand a chance, either your team comp was really weak compared to the enemy team or simply your teammates sucked.

That kind of situation happens really often with this broken matchmaking system, where you own enemy team or they own you, usually with 4-0, 4-1 or 4-2 scores.

CookieLady666
11-03-2016, 08:07 PM
Characters are supposed to have counters. Get over it. If you really have so competent teams on ranked, you can always try securing Fernando's counters on his side of the team, so the enemy can't pick them.

I burn his shields as a BK as well. Easy. And you know what? Good. You're sounding like you want Fernando to be an ultimate pick against everyone, and that's just a nonsensical expectation.

Truth being told, if a team can melt a Fernando this easily, they can melt any other tank just as well. Hell, any other tank will drop even faster than Fernando would. It's not like Barik or Makoa don't rely on their shields, do they now? So why are you complaining about this one guy in particular?

Not to mention - you do realise that if everyone buys Wrecker, the healers can run rampant instead? If you have a well-rounded team, it's really hard to just counter it in its entirety.

CookieLady666
11-03-2016, 08:09 PM
That kind of situation happens really often with this broken matchmaking system, where you own enemy team or they own you, usually with 4-0, 4-1 or 4-2 scores.

This very situation doesn't happen to me so often, and I doubt we're running two different matchmaking systems. Maybe, consider this for a second, your situational awareness with Fernando is just poor and you charge in too much, and too deep?

CookieLady666
11-03-2016, 08:17 PM
All that math is pretty good and well thought, but you're missing something dude, you're creating a situation where it's like Fernando all by himself vs the entire enemy team, where is your team in that situation?, where's your back up?, your CC?, anything?, idk with who you played competitive, but if you couldn't stand a chance, either your team comp was really weak compared to the enemy team or simply your teammates sucked.

This situation is exactly my point. Did you even read that post? If a Fernando can do so much all by himself, just imagine what he can do with a team! I actually made many remarks about that, but the post was so long, I had to delete them. I definitely stand a chance. I feel like I'm literally standing there, indestructible most of time, actually. All this time I'm defending Fernando's amazing stats, not complaining that he's bad. It's the other guy who's constantly complaining that Wrecker makes Fernando unplayable, and I find it entirely wrong.

His enormous taking potential is definitely more than enough for his team to take an advantage of. If there's a healer, if there's dmg behind him, CC - if all these amazing stats and opportunities are used well, Fernando carries, and he carries hard.

MiraculousMango
11-03-2016, 08:19 PM
This very situation doesn't happen to me so often, and I doubt we're running two different matchmaking systems. Maybe, consider this for a second, your situational awareness with Fernando is just poor and you charge in too much, and too deep?

I usually have bad luck with my team and worse luck with enemy teams, I just got teamed against 2 diamonds and 3 plats with only 2 plats in my team, or even worse, 1 diamond and 2 plats with no plats/diamonds on my team, usually, I do not rush the point, the first thing I do is read the basic strat of enemy team, if they charge together or not, how many flank, how many cap the point, etc.

When you face a competent team, they will wreck your shield in less than 2 secs, that situation is even worse when you have to cap open points like Timber/Fish/Mines where you are in the middle of the warfare, and if the enemy team has good flanks (usally happens), they win your back, plus their front.

Bomb King, is a worse case, he is the anti-tank champion, smart BK´s put their grumpy behind you, plus, his poppy with jolt forces you to save your charge for a quick comeback after poppy knockback.

Yes, it does not happens in every match, but with this matchmaking system, if you queue solo, it becomes a nightmare, cuz is worse than a russian roulette, at least that´s my experience.

CookieLady666
11-03-2016, 08:34 PM
I usually have bad luck with my team and worse luck with enemy teams, I just got teamed against 2 diamonds and 3 plats with only 2 plats in my team, or even worse, 1 diamond and 2 plats with no plats/diamonds on my team, usually, I do not rush the point, the first thing I do is read the basic strat of enemy team, if they charge together or not, how many flank, how many cap the point, etc.

When you face a competent team, they will wreck your shield in less than 2 secs, that situation is even worse when you have to cap open points like Timber/Fish/Mines where you are in the middle of the warfare, and if the enemy team has good flanks (usally happens), they win your back, plus their front.

Bomb King, is a worse case, he is the anti-tank champion, smart BK´s put their grumpy behind you, plus, his poppy with jolt forces you to save your charge for a quick comeback after poppy knockback.

Yes, it does not happens in every match, but with this matchmaking system, if you queue solo, it becomes a nightmare, cuz is worse than a russian roulette, at least that´s my experience.

But why can't you all understand that Fernando is much more than just a shield?

I mean, come on. This Mjolnir guys is so stuck up, he just assumes i'm noobstomping some low levels while, in reality, I am playing against teams consisting Plat/Diamond players mostly, sometimes even goddamn Masters. I know my shit. But just because I disagree with him, he prefers to believe I'm a noob who doesn't know the game and has yet to learn his ultimate wisdom. You can hear his condescending in every single thing he says. It's really rude. And lowly.

Fernando does a lot of things. He doesn't just shield. He can burst down multiple enemies really well. If they are desperate enough to cluster up near him, all he has to do is angle his Fireball-Charge combo well. Add some flamethrower for good measure - its damage is no joke, seriously, do NOT underestimate it - and if your team can't finish those people off, they must be a complete bunch of potatoes.

The objective is not a picnic site to infinitely camp on it. Move around, rotate your spells, buy the damn Veteran and learn to regenerate behind obstacles if necessary. Don't hesitate to leave the point for a couple second to save your teammate from that pesky Buck. It pays off greatly. It's that easy.

Also, if so they happen to have a Bomb King who can melt your shield - use your brain and stop putting it up just for the enemies to melt it. Be smart. Use this shield to block a Grumpy Bomb before it detonates instead, so it won't force you out of the objective. Keep it for when it's actually a good idea to use it.

It's all there, all the opportunities, right in your grasp. Fernando is an amazing, well-rounded champion, and I love this guy both because of gameplay and the amazing, narcisstic sass that he has. 10/10 would main.

Rawkh
11-03-2016, 09:13 PM
I usually have bad luck with my team and worse luck with enemy teams, I just got teamed against 2 diamonds and 3 plats with only 2 plats in my team, or even worse, 1 diamond and 2 plats with no plats/diamonds on my team, usually, I do not rush the point, the first thing I do is read the basic strat of enemy team, if they charge together or not, how many flank, how many cap the point, etc.

Ranks here are way to overrated, yesterday i played a match with a horrible team against few plats and 1 diamond Evie which turns out to be terrible.

Back to Fernando's subject, really i know ppl is lazy and usually don't watch gameplays, but everything you're speaking here happened at the video i uploaded and posted in this very same thread above, a match in ice mines against a BK with wrecker, i was forced to carefully pick the situations when pop up the shield because it was literally melting in 2-3 secs, yet, there is other ways to fight if that happens, granted their makoa wasn't the best makoa you'll met, but yet again, im not a main Fernando, probaly not even a GOOD Fernando according to you, but considering i had a beginner (barik) in my team and no healer at all i guess i did a decent job, just watch it, it was a really good match.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-usY_q-pVtg

CookieLady666
11-03-2016, 09:32 PM
Ranks here are way to overrated, yesterday i played a match with a horrible team against few plats and 1 diamond Evie which turns out to be terrible.

Back to Fernando's subject, really i know ppl is lazy and usually don't watch gameplays, but everything you're speaking here happened at the video i uploaded and posted in this very same thread above, a match in ice mines against a BK with wrecker, i was forced to carefully pick the situations when pop up the shield because it was literally melting in 2-3 secs, yet, there is other ways to fight if that happens, granted their makoa wasn't the best makoa you'll met, but yet again, im not a main Fernando, probaly not even a GOOD Fernando according to you, but considering i had a beginner (barik) in my team and no healer at all i guess i did a decent job, just watch it, it was a really good match.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-usY_q-pVtg

See, that's the thing there mate. You and I understand Fernando's purpose. His incredible strenghts, and surprising versatility.

But then there are folks like the one I was arguing with who, if you think about for a while, are just people who got used to feeling indestructible as Fernando in the beginning, thought they can win all games with him, but then hit a ceiling where people are actually using Wrecker against shields, and it turned out that's their limit for now.

And instead of readjusting their game style, and accepting that higher levels of gameplay have more counterplay in general, they just cry "nerf Wrecker" because they want to feel indestructible with Fernando with zero effort and planning again.

Wrecker is fine. And as much as I wanted to avoid that Dark Souls refernce, it has to be said: Looks to me like someone simply needs to git gud.

About the video: Your Fernando looks really great. You have the confidence to duel the Bomb King instead of cowering behind your shield. You know that before you try to kill Barik, you have to destroy his turrets first. Your spell rotation is intelligent, and their BK couldn't just push you aroud with Poppy Bomb, because you were charing back. And your team went ahead and stopped the enemies from even reaching their Payload once you've pushed them back. Most commendable.

For what looks like your playstyle, I'd highly recommend you sticking Last Stand of at least lvl III in your Loadout. You oftentimes shield when you have little health, and believe me when I say it - being able to regen back to 50% hp in such circumstances is incredible. Sneaking in a bit of survivability in an offensive build always goes a long way.

I like your Fernando, I really do. Focused on objective, but not literally glued to it. Confident, sometimes even a little too much, but not reckless. You seem to know limits of this character well.

Rawkh
11-03-2016, 11:04 PM
For what looks like your playstyle, I'd highly recommend you sticking Last Stand of at least lvl III in your Loadout. You oftentimes shield when you have little health, and believe me when I say it - being able to regen back to 50% hp in such circumstances is incredible. Sneaking in a bit of survivability in an offensive build always goes a long way.

I remember i was using that setup not long ago, but i decided to stop using it due to competent players destroying the shield way to fast, not giving me enough time to take fully advantage of Last Stand, also in some scenarios i felt like i needed a bit more of offensive power, the setup i used on the video is mostly to be combined with a healer but well, tbh i didn't believe my team was going to do so well (although not focusing on Barik's turrets as i would like), so i choosed to be the most aggresive i could without loosing the focus of the match: winning.

As for the BK duel, you might refer to the final round?, since i saw the strat didn't work the past 3 rounds, i just decided to go all in and go full aggresiveness, i wanted to destroy them asap, force them to split and not allow them to work as a team, you may observe if it wasn't for the charge nerf i could've killed Viktor in the beginning of that final round, well done Hi-Rez you plan is working...

Mjolnir1337
11-04-2016, 08:17 AM
This very situation doesn't happen to me so often, and I doubt we're running two different matchmaking systems. Maybe, consider this for a second, your situational awareness with Fernando is just poor and you charge in too much, and too deep?

You are... Some of us play competitive, you play casual. SO yes, we ARE running two different matchmaking systems lol.

I also dont think that just because of this, it means YOUR bad, what it means is you are much more likely to face bad opponents. THATS the difference. I even said earlier that you might be a great Fernando player, but being good at Fernando has less to do with how you play, and more to do with how you are countered by the enemy team.

Just because you face Diamond players, doesnt mean anything. Many of those players CAN be bad at the class. When you play casual, there isnt any matchmaking involved. When you play competitive, you have a higher chance of playing against a full team of "equally skilled" players.

So if you ARE good, then you will go against good players. Why dont you start trying competitive and see what happens after 20-30 Fernando games. Then come back and post opinions on him.

Its kinda like in Overwatch, posting opinions about class balance without playing competitive... You dont really know how good other players can be.

CookieLady666
11-04-2016, 10:35 AM
I already told you. I play competitive as well. I am frequently matched with Diamond/Plat players in both modes. I assume they know what they're doing and I see plenty of Wreckers in the enemy team. They work, and they work fine.

It's your problem that you can't handle the fact that your character has a counter, not mine, or the game's.

And, honestly, it's an incredibly stupid attitude to just assume that people who don't play ranked games are in any way worse than those who do. You really need that sense of self-entitlement to feel better about yourself, don't you?

I swear it's the same crap I had back in time when I was playing League of Legends. Identical. I got matched with Diamond/Plat players, had at least two Challenger friends, went super high in my mmr - but there was always, always this one stuck up jerk who just kept saying, like a broken record "you are bronze and you suck, you are bronze and you suck, unranked means bronze and you suck". Pitiful.

And the best part? People who are of really high rank are the first ones to say that ranks don't matter. Always. It's an unfaltering pattern. So maybe you just don't have the high rank mentality if all you can do is rate people by whatever border surrounds their loading picture.

So stop. Just stop. You stalked me as a player to check exactly how I set up my Loadouts, whether I play ranked or not, and the entire time you are only attacking me as a person, instead of addressing my arguments like a mature human being would. I don't know how are you not ashamed of yourself yet.

The way I see it, you just felt good about yourself during YOUR noobstomping times on the early levels, and now you just can't handle the fact that in higher levels of play, people can and will attempt to counter you whenever available. You just want Wrecker nerf so you can go back to this jolly little time when you could glue yourself to the Objective and laugh at enemies who can't harm you.

The problem is not Wrecker. The problem is you.

I can only see it a matter of time until you will make a smurf to feel the joy of noobstomping with Fernando without worrying about Wrecker. Because that item is fine, and it won't be nerfed, I guarantee you that.

bL1nk94
11-04-2016, 12:45 PM
This nerf is stupid as fuck to be honest. Even when I didn't harass the enemy backline as Nando, being a solo tank, I needed that 1000 HP shield from every dash more than I need fucking air. I'm a very good Nando and I can't even make them run away like I used too. I was used to staying on point for stupid amounts of time unless focused by a whole team. I was used to damage people with my dash when my shield was up so I didn't 100% lose the poke fight. Right now, Nando feels kinda clunky. He's only useful if you have a healer or at least a second tank. I think Barik outtanks him right now.

Mjolnir1337
11-04-2016, 02:11 PM
And, honestly, it's an incredibly stupid attitude to just assume that people who don't play ranked games are in any way worse than those who do.


I never said that, I even said you might be a great Fernando player:

I also dont think that just because of this, it means YOUR bad, what it means is you are much more likely to face bad opponents. THATS the difference. I even said earlier that you might be a great Fernando player, but being good at Fernando has less to do with how you play, and more to do with how you are countered by the enemy team.




And the best part? People who are of really high rank are the first ones to say that ranks don't matter. Always. It's an unfaltering pattern. So maybe you just don't have the high rank mentality if all you can do is rate people by whatever border surrounds their loading picture.
And this is exactly what I said...


Just because you face Diamond players, doesnt mean anything. Many of those players CAN be bad at the class.



So stop. Just stop.... the entire time you are only attacking me as a person, instead of addressing my arguments...
Ummm... So this post:
http://forums.paladins.com/showthread.php?17090-Fernando-feel-more-stupid-after-each-patch&p=106992&viewfull=1#post106992

Isnt addressing your arguments? I specifically walked through WHY your "proof" was false. Didnt attack YOU whatsoever. Ive never said "you are bad" or anything like that, not even REMOTELY. Ive said "you might be good" "you might be pro" several times. But what IS funny, is what you just said here... doing exactly what you accused me of:


The problem is not Wrecker. The problem is you.

If you think there is no difference between casual que and ranked matches in terms of difficulty of opponents, then maybe we have been playing different games.

I play characters I am BAD at in casual and do amazing, there is a night and day difference for me, in the level of competition. The players I have come across in casual, for the most part dont work together, they pick fun classes and are not as coordinated working together to win.

In competitive, its completely different. People pick teams based on countering, burn cards based on countering. Its a completely different realm. So again, all I am saying is, maybe it might help you in your opinion to make more ranked games, in a more competitive environment with Fernando rather than taking most, if not all, your "data" from casual matches. This is NOT me saying "your bad", but merely saying that maybe you lack some perspective.

At this point, its beating a dead horse I guess. There are many others that do agree with me, and some that might agree with you, so no amount of arguing over the forums is going to get either one to change their opinions. Best of luck :)

Rawkh
11-04-2016, 08:58 PM
In competitive, its completely different.

That sentence would make sence IF several factors would work as they should.

1- For starting the big majority of ppl playing Ranked are the same ppl playing Casuals.

2- The matchmaking itself works horribe, you know MOST of the competitive matches are 1 sided all the time.

3- Overall the majority of competitive matches (excepting the high elo well matched matches) still sucks, ppl focusing to try to counter the enemy by picking wrecker, cauterize, bulldozer or a dedicated champ to counter pick an specific target, yet that doesn't mean they can accomplish that task successfuly, most of them still are average players, the same you find in casuals, the only difference is they have a fancy portrait on their avatar.

4- Competitive is the same or even worst than playing casuals, just for the simply fact that, aside from the ppl being the same that play casuals, there's still lack of communitation because the absence of an ingame voice comms, you still can't join competitive with a bigger party than just 2 players, so besides players overall knowledge about the game might be a bit better than casuals, it's still pretty much the same.
I've watched several youtube videos from rankeds, and read several posts on this forums stating that competitive still sucks way to much and the videos from youtube reinforce that statement, when i watch them i just wanna cry, can't believe how these ppl are plat or diammond, etc.

I think when CookieLady666 says that both of you would not use a different matchmaking,he refers that actually the matchmaking for ranked works as bad as the casuals one, matching you with retards most of the time, 1 sided matches, and overall the same ppl playing both casual and ranked matches...

I personally do not play Ranked till they add a voice comms system (i know atm it's a easy task but it's also a hard decision due ppl would focus mostly on blaming/flaming the teammates than actually trying to play the game), fix the matchmaking (for that we might need more time for ppl to learn the game mechanics and actually have a bigger pool size of players), and to end it when they actually add something rewarding for playing rankeds other than just a simple protrait.

I still have way to much fun and very though matches playing on casuals (it's true these matches are the minority of the cases) but yet when they happen it becomes crazy good matches, most of the time defining it 3/4 3/4 on the final round, also don't forget that in casuals you actually CAN queue up with a team of 5 players and probably when that happen you're playing against players that are actually communicating through external programs, so do not underestimate casuals just because YOU think ranked is better/harder/more organized because till they fix all that i mentioned before, the only difference between Casuals and Rankeds is the draft system, nothing else.

BM0C
11-08-2016, 04:38 AM
Wrecker is far too good IMO and needs to be nerfed to like 25%/50%/75% or something. Fernando and Barik and even Ruckus are great, until someone picks Wrecker, then they arent really frontline tanks anymore, just a waste of space.

Why do people in this game never seem to grasp the importance of things like cauterize/wrecker? Everyone goes for the damn 5% more damage.... It makes no sense...

wrecker really isn't a big deal. fernando is so much more than his shield. seriously a number of times I put it up for a moment simply to block a firespit or a grumpy bomb for the team then drop it. if you are using the mobility cards, it's pretty easy to maneuver yourself around and get out of trouble or attack as necessary.

in high elo games aggression is rarely picked up.


"Flankando" is a waste of a good tank. I didn't even know it existed as a thing until I hit up the forum - I always thought people doing that were just stupid and/or didn't understand what Fernando is about.

I'm the top rated fernando in the US/Can region (not that this means a whole lot) and this is how i play him.


Id like to see you say this after playing more competitive matches, a quick glance through your play history, looks like all youve been doing is casual. Most casual games Ive played many are noobs and Fernando feels like a god.. Get to competitive games when people are taking Wrecker, are teaming up just to counter you and GG.

in cookielady666's (awesome name) defense, I've played ~80 games with him in comp with a 75%+ winrate. I think fernando is in a great place after the nerf (the fireball was way too strong, the dash cd did need a slight increase). I'm still winning with him consistently in high level matches. he is very first pick worthy.

Mjolnir1337
11-09-2016, 10:31 AM
wrecker really isn't a big deal. fernando is so much more than his shield. seriously a number of times I put it up for a moment simply to block a firespit or a grumpy bomb for the team then drop it. if you are using the mobility cards, it's pretty easy to maneuver yourself around and get out of trouble or attack as necessary.

in high elo games aggression is rarely picked up.



I'm the top rated fernando in the US/Can region (not that this means a whole lot) and this is how i play him.



in cookielady666's (awesome name) defense, I've played ~80 games with him in comp with a 75%+ winrate. I think fernando is in a great place after the nerf (the fireball was way too strong, the dash cd did need a slight increase). I'm still winning with him consistently in high level matches. he is very first pick worthy.

Thanks for posting this. I am not above saying I am wrong. I just havnt experienced it man. I used to main Reinhardt when I played Overwatch, and maybe part of my problem is I am trying to play Fernando the same way - a tank.

I know the Flank build, and everytime I run it, with mobility cards, reduced fireball CD, etc. my team loses.

Maybe its because of bad team comp, maybe its because I solo Q, but he just feels so weak.

Sure I can flank an unsuspecting Kinessa or Viktor and wreck them. But Ive had some incredibly tough Buck 1v1s while trying to "flank" and overall havnt had any success more than just a handful of casual matches really being effective as a flank. I run in, have a good shot at killing someone 1v1, but then one of their flanks follow me when I try and escape and keep my veteran from healing me back up, and I just end up dying...

Then when I try and actually get ON a node, I get nuked. Ill tank with my HP, toss up shield when <50% and my shield melts, ill be lucky to get any healing, and just die. Try and LOS but it seems many players are smart and ill get a flanker or just a DPS like a Viktor who will run around a corner and finish me off...

Then when I rock my tank build, all seems well and its a TON of fun, until someone grabs wrecker and my shield melts in 2 seconds and GG.

Again, maybe its my playstyle and Overwatch ruined me... But how I learned to play a "tank" in these games was a colossal damage shield.

Part of me wonders, is the way most "Pros" are playing him now, as intended? Part of me thinks it isnt.... and people running around playing these high mobility near "Flank" fernandos are going to get aspects of him nerfed, and then I think wrecker IS going to be a huge issue for him...

There are already talks of Fernando being nerfed again. Wrecker just got a BUFF... So his shield is going to be totally worthless now. I think given this direction the class is taking, and how his optimal playstyle doesnt seem to be that of a tank, maybe its time for me to hangup my favorite hero :/

IDK, I just cant seem to see what other "pros" see when they rock Fernando. When you are playing him, what is your team comp look like? What would you say is the playstyle? Are you capping the node and moving the payload? Are you flanking their backline DPS? What are you doing that I cant seem to figure out in how to play him?

Thanks!

ToxicSquiid
11-09-2016, 07:06 PM
Making Fernando an "assault" character would turn him into an insanely OP paladin. With his great HP amount and the ability to deploy a shield, he only lacks the ability to attack at long range effectively, becoming a Kinessa with 3x the base HP.
No, just no.

I have used him once, just once: the other team lost pretty badly. And I had zero skills with him. Think about what could a "pro" Fernando do along with a good team too. :eek:

This is why they nerfed him: he is the most defensive front-liner in the game and arguably the hardest character to kill without taking out the healer and tons of Shield Wrecker. If he was given the ability to deal out damage as well as tank as well as he does, he would be COMPLETELY broken; we cannot allow this.

Think of it like this: he could take damage from literally a whole team in 1 vs 5 and still possibly survive without an Ultimate if he had good damage. Fernando was never designed to chase enemies off the point, he is designed to support healers and damage class characters and hold the objective for the team.

If you want a more offensive tank, you need to play Makoa or Barik (not qualifying Ruckus because of his relatively poor tanking skills with inexperienced players). Fernando should remain the way he is now, he is perfectly balanced.

BM0C
11-10-2016, 01:29 AM
IDK, I just cant seem to see what other "pros" see when they rock Fernando. When you are playing him, what is your team comp look like? What would you say is the playstyle? Are you capping the node and moving the payload? Are you flanking their backline DPS? What are you doing that I cant seem to figure out in how to play him?

Thanks!

I'll try and answer as much as I can here...

I would read my reddit post to help you with a decent amount of your questions: https://www.reddit.com/r/Paladins/comments/57k5dc/in_regards_to_fernando_playstyles/

I'm VerTuBMOC in that thread, and I give a lot of 1v1 advice for dps classes. knowing how to play against each champ and when to use your shield is important...you also usually want to attack off a fireball open, and fireball immediately when it's up again. that's good damage against a dps. I answer some questions about card builds in the thread too.

a lot of it has to do with map. you'll generally find that fernando is better suited for smaller points and maps that are very flat. the flatter a map is, the more likely you can chase down someone trying to evade you.

re: "Part of me wonders, is the way most "Pros" are playing him now, as intended? Part of me thinks it isnt.... and people running around playing these high mobility near "Flank" fernandos are going to get aspects of him nerfed, and then I think wrecker IS going to be a huge issue for him..." - I think the card system exists to create more flexibility in the champs, and create different play styles. it feels pretty intentional to me and intuitive while playing him to rush people down.

I don't think fernando will be nerfed again atm, and if he is it'd be something small (I could reasonably see lowering fireball from 450 to 400, for instance).

when I play him, team comp usually varies. he's probably the most viable tank to use solo. let me look at the scrims I played tonight with him: on frozen guard - fernando/cassie/evie/mal/viktor. for this match I mostly played point while throwing fireballs (always looking for two person+ fireballs, if at all possible, but still using it every ~5-6 seconds, whatever the full cooldown amounts to). when I saw that someone had half hp'ed someone, I'd look to dash/follow up and try to secure a kill if I was in position to do so.

my other scrims aren't in my history for some reason so not much to comment on there =/. I also think you should be looking to use shield to better your team - don't just save it for yourself when you're below half health or whatever. sometimes it will be a lot more beneficial to pop it early to block damage on some of your teammates, while their DPS is higher and can kill more efficiently than you. then, drop the shield for the 8 sec cooldown...if you're not targeted too heavily, you may be able to use a second shield in combat for when you DO get low - this is especially efficient early game when not many people have wrecker. learning when to use the shield for maximum efficiency, and dropping it at the correct times to apply DPS is really fundamental.

I am always moving the payload on fernando unless I see a kill close to dash range that I can help secure - then I'll hop off and help teammates. the 4 credits every tick on PL really add up fast. ditto with capping, but I'm not always immediately looking to cap...it depends on team comp, map, enemy team comp, and so forth. the thing about paladins, really, is being adaptable. sometimes, maybe, first round you'll try to play an aggressive fernando and flank onto the enemy DPS. this might work well, and you might get a solo kill and help your team secure other kills after - great. what if it doesn't work and they get the payload? that's okay, regroup, try to get the defense point, and get a 1-1 reset of the match. now you know that either 1. playing aggressively with fernando isn't going to work for one reason or another (bad map, bad team comp, team isn't following up on you or demands that you play point so doesn't know how to follow up on an aggressive fernando (I run into this often), enemy too evasive, etc). 2. you made some individual mistakes that made the aggressive play not work. assuming it's the former, just play at point for the next round. if that works out for you, great, then you know you'll need to play more of a point based fernando and look for kills when they come to you. if they take point again, maybe consider trying more aggression next round. try to adapt, find out what works, and stick to that.

what are you buying in game and in what order? if they have a ying, a buck, a mal, or a grover, I prioritize caut (this becomes even more important if they are running barik as a tank who can basically outheal your damage with a two turret setup and the healing cards. also fernando is terrible at taking down turrets with high health). usually I'll start with haven/blast shields as necessary, and pick up caut 1/2/3 right after. when you hit caut 3 on fernando, people die much, much easier because you can apply caut so well (viktor and nando both should be 99% of the time picking up caut imo). also, nimble 1/2 are great pickups since it helps with your chase down so much and stacks with the other speed boosts you're getting off of landing fireball/dashing. I don't get that every match as sometimes I grab master riding, but if I don't I generally value nimble > cd reduction/morale boost. definitely max your defense card, probably before grabbing nimble 2, but situations dictate what you should do.

anyway that's about all I've got. hope that helps you, feel free to ask more questions if you have them.

Mjolnir1337
11-10-2016, 11:14 AM
I'll try and answer as much as I can here...

I would read my reddit post to help you with a decent amount of your questions: https://www.reddit.com/r/Paladins/comments/57k5dc/in_regards_to_fernando_playstyles/

I'm VerTuBMOC in that thread, and I give a lot of 1v1 advice for dps classes.


I am always moving the payload on fernando unless I see a kill close to dash range that I can help secure - then I'll hop off and help teammates.

what are you buying in game and in what order?

Ill check out the reddit forsure, cheers!

This does help, so you are focusing on the payload. Anytime ive played the "flank" ive been trying to do just that, go behind enemy lines and pick off solo players. Maybe ill try the flank build but just stick to the payload. Normally I do this on my "tank" build and he ends up playing just fine - until someone gets Wrecker and then my shield melts.


What am I buying? Almost ALWAYS cauterize. Usually after that, ill grab Haven or save for Caut II depending on the comp and how the round is going.


Question: What are your thoughts on Wrecker INCREASING come OB 37. Also, I dont think Wrecker is really the issue I have, but the overkill damage spilling over into HP. If you do grab the safe travel for 1k Shield, a Drogoz with WRecker III gets a massive damage boost that spills over into HP. Same with Ruckus. And when you nuke a Fernando shield with it, it spills over and can chunk your HP for 1500-2k+ pretty easily.

Maybe its just been coincidence, but when I play against a Fernando, ill usually grab a Drogoz or Viktor and just grab Wrecker and the shield drops in <2 seconds and then usually chunks his HP as well for 1-2k.

These are the situations that I have found frustrating being on the receiving end. Now, most games I play, I wont run into guys that do this. They usually grab other things like reload, cauterize, aggression etc. But occasionally Ill run into a BK/Drogoz or something that gets Wrecker III and then each hit chunks yor shield, and then it spills over into your HP.

I think if it DIDNT do that, it would be a little better. Have you found this to be the case?

Tynnyrimpi
11-10-2016, 11:23 AM
Just lower fernando's health pool and shield's health.

BM0C
11-10-2016, 06:21 PM
What am I buying? Almost ALWAYS cauterize. Usually after that, ill grab Haven or save for Caut II depending on the comp and how the round is going.


Question: What are your thoughts on Wrecker INCREASING come OB 37. Also, I dont think Wrecker is really the issue I have, but the overkill damage spilling over into HP. If you do grab the safe travel for 1k Shield, a Drogoz with WRecker III gets a massive damage boost that spills over into HP. Same with Ruckus. And when you nuke a Fernando shield with it, it spills over and can chunk your HP for 1500-2k+ pretty easily.

Maybe its just been coincidence, but when I play against a Fernando, ill usually grab a Drogoz or Viktor and just grab Wrecker and the shield drops in <2 seconds and then usually chunks his HP as well for 1-2k.

These are the situations that I have found frustrating being on the receiving end. Now, most games I play, I wont run into guys that do this. They usually grab other things like reload, cauterize, aggression etc. But occasionally Ill run into a BK/Drogoz or something that gets Wrecker III and then each hit chunks yor shield, and then it spills over into your HP.

I think if it DIDNT do that, it would be a little better. Have you found this to be the case?

good on the caut - just realize that the biggest benefit you're going to get is going from caut 2 to caut 3. there's a huge difference in them still getting near 50% healing, and only getting 10. if you have caut 2, getting to 3 is generally going to be your next priority in matches with good healing. it shuts that down so, so hard and gives you a large advantage.

re: wrecker - I think you've just made the case for yourself why safe travel isn't very good! a lot of your 1v1 priority targets are going to be those that have wrecker! with the buff to it at max level, safe travel could actually end up doing significantly more harm to you than helping you (aside from it already taking up precious card slots!) this also sums up why I think ruckus is not a great pick often, and will now be an even worse pick. as for the fernando shield, wrecker damage doesn't go through it to you - that only has an effect on personal shields (safe travel, barik's shield after dashing, ruckus shield, etc). makoa/fernando shields don't suffer the same overflow damage. in any case, you need to be looking to drop fernando shield early to keep the cd to 8 instead of 15/16. as for the change, idk. time will tell. for the way I use shield it probably won't be a huge impact, but I could be wrong.

Raviollius
11-11-2016, 10:36 AM
Safe Travel used to be VERY good, but with Bomb King's sticky bomb bug being fixed, charge cooldown nerf, wrecker insane buff and Drogoz buff... it became decent only in the best case scenario(no wrecker higher than 1, no bomb king/drogoz/shao). You're better off with extra charge range or bonus speed.

EDIT: Also, flanker Fernando is sad. Want to be useful? Hit the point without using your shield, run around causing chaos and burning people(on the point), and if you see a target of opportunity(usually a support or a damage hero focusing on your teammates that is close), turn on them immediately and burn them to cinders. It takes surprisingly long for them to realize what you're doing and get their wits together to run(they can't) or kill you(they can't). Use your shield to protect teammates or to take advantage of the Last Stand card, never as an opening move. If there's no yummy support, flanker or damage hero close, or if their frontline is eating your team instead of running like a headless chicken or scared hiding behind their shield(like they should be, if you did your job properly), kill them with extreme prejudice for the offense of touching YOUR objective.

What makes a good Fernando is a mix of agressiveness, protectiveness towards both your point and your teammates, and map awareness. It's surprising how often you can save yourself and the people around you by attacking them with 400 HP and weaving around the enemy/payload instead of trying to run away.

In short? Be half RPG Paladin and half TF2 Pyro.

Rawkh
11-20-2016, 09:32 PM
Sry for revive an old topic with this subject, after reading all the discusion about Fernando in competitive and the differences when you play casuals, i decided to give a try to rankeds since few days ago (even tho i still think i have better close matches in casuals than rankeds).

So, after all the nerfs and the retarded wrecker buff i decided to test the waters with Nando in competitive and this is the outcome: A match vs Barik/Drogos/Bk/Androx/Ying with 4 of them picking up wrecker, shield melting was real, so i had to choose very carefully the moments to pop it up.

We did lack AoE dmg and overall dmg output from our team, counting that Cassie was played by a EU friend with 200+ ping so, the result was a forced Aggro Nando match, overextended if not reckless at times but ending up as top dmg from my team 100k+ and 230k+ shielding, and yes, i know i could've taken better desicions in few parts yet it was a very tight match till the end.

Here's the vid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB5uctYvxc4&feature=youtu.be&t=4m5s

Note: i edited the video to skip some tedious clips, i guess the best parts were the deffense at round 1 and 3, the attack on round 2 was not bad neither, last round enemy team got into panic mode and threw it away i think.

The question, is Fernando still usefull as before even in competitive after ob37 patch?, i'd say yes, yet wrecker seems to be way to overpowered atm.