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View Full Version : More Frontlines = More Wins



TheManlyFairy
10-22-2016, 06:35 AM
I'm sure most people experienced this atleast once. Enemy team takes 2 or 3 frontliners, and suddenly all the viktors and cassies in the world are not enough to stop them. From my personal experience so far, any serious damage you can deal to tanks, they either shrug off by shielding or just wait for about 2 seconds and heal it off with their supports help, even against damage from some ultimates, like Kinessa's Headhunter.

For this reason, I think we need to add two mechanics to some of the champions skills as a basic effect or a card effect.

1. Max HP % Damage - adding this will allow you to slice off a nice chunk of health from frontliners, either over time or instantly, when you catch them off guard with their shielding ability down. I know Skye has this as a basic effect in poison bolts, but I think the ability to deal it as instant damage would prove as a real threat to frontliners in particular. As a card effect, I think it should have a cooldown of around 10-12 seconds and deal 7.5% maximum health per level.

2. Shield Penetration - Let's face it, shields are powerful as hell right now and do an overwhelmingly good job at defending anybody staying behind them, especially if you stack them together (looking at you, Fernando and Makoa). I think having skills that are able to pass through shields would make for a serious threat not just to the frontlines, but the enemies they're protecting as well, which is the essence of their role. Again, as a card I think this should have a cooldown, but probably around 5-8 seconds long.

For obvious reasons, these damage concepts should never be applied to basic attacks because that would just be game breaking. I'll say it again, these kind of effects should only be usable as a skill, either as a base effect or a card effect.

Now as some of the comments already said, "but Fairy, just take bomb king and drogoz and give them wrecker" or "just have all your team take wrecker". That's all nice and dandy, but the shields that frontliners have is not the only issue here, there's also a problem with the difference in damage the frontliners take after buying a defensive item. Right now Blast Shield and Haven reduce 10% damage per level, which doesn't sound much but can amount to nearly 1/3 of your damage, which is a HUGE difference in your damage output. I think Haven and Blast Shield should be reduced from a base of 10% defense to 7.5%, because right now these defense cards just make Aggression a waste of space so your damage doesn't fall off so much. Here's a little math to make things clear:
Let's take Cassie vs Makoa as an example. Cassie buys aggression, giving her a little extra damage. Makoa gets Haven to reduce that damage.
At level 1, Cassie deals 735 damage, and Makoa takes 10% of that less, so 661.5 damage.
At level 2, Cassie deals 770 damage, and Makoa takes 20% of that less, so 616 damage.
At level 3, Cassie deals 805 damage, and Makoa takes 30% of that less, so 563.5 damage.
In this hypothetical scenario, Cassie's damage is reduced by a huge difference and she can barely keep up. Even without Makoa's shield, he could march through her arrows and make her empty her quiver before dying. And just to make it even worse, without Agression Cassie's damage would have fallen down to 490 vs a lv 3 Haven.

I know there are other people who say teams should mix Cauterize and Wrecker, but first let's be honest - how many times have you played against a team of 3 or 4 frontlines and actually won?

AliceMarg
10-22-2016, 07:10 AM
best ways to deal with sheilds spammers.
1. buy the wrecker card instead of the aggressaion/defthands. you do sooo much damage to sheilds with most charators that you only really need level one or two of it. if everyone buys these items, then the other team wont have enough sheild time to be effective with their frontliners while they did end up giving a ton of damage for bringing them.
2. if you know people are going to spam frontliners in the draft, take bombking or dragoze. they do soooooo much damage per attack and combind with wrecker, you can knock out sheilds supper fast.
3. having better flankers then the frontliner team will help you out alot, as a good buck or evie can shutdown the other teams support from behind them, and overall, keep the other team from being able to focuse from only one direction. also great for knocking returning players off their horses when they attempt to return to the fight.
4. pip offers the best support when dealing with frontliners do to his very high dps for a support at decent range, and the fact that he can easily heal himself and allys while driving the frontliners heavy teams off the objective.

these are just a few examples of ways you can deal with Frontliner spam without needing to add new mechanics to the game. and sure, while having more mechanics would be cool, I would rather they save things like %hp damage per hit attacks for really special weapons, such as a sword wielding character rather then give it to the current characters who don't need it.

ACorpse
10-22-2016, 07:11 AM
If you're facing multiple frontliners and none of your team go wrecker, you've earned that loss yourself. I don't see how allowing people to bypass shields is going to improve things. Shields do not scale. Wrecker improves as the match progresses. If a shield lasts longer than 3 seconds in late-game then it's definitely the other team's fault.

TheManlyFairy
10-22-2016, 08:02 AM
I guess my point kinda blew over your heads. Edited main post to make it clear for any future readers that's it's not just the shield abilities that are a problem.


these are just a few examples of ways you can deal with Frontliner spam without needing to add new mechanics to the game. and sure, while having more mechanics would be cool, I would rather they save things like %hp damage per hit attacks for really special weapons, such as a sword wielding character rather then give it to the current characters who don't need it.

That's great but it doesn't solve the other problem I mentioned of the defensive item stats. Also I thought I made it clear that % hp damage should only be used as a skill or card, not basic weapon attacks. Drogoz and Bomb King may deal tons of damage but that's only in direct attacks, and while I know they are somewhat designed to break shields fast, they're still glass cannons in terms of direct damage output.



If you're facing multiple frontliners and none of your team go wrecker, you've earned that loss yourself. I don't see how allowing people to bypass shields is going to improve things. Shields do not scale. Wrecker improves as the match progresses. If a shield lasts longer than 3 seconds in late-game then it's definitely the other team's fault.
That's great, but you too ignored the problem of defensive items scaling. The damage reduction from them almost nullifies the need for shields if their healer is good at their job. Also the point of bypassing shields is to create pressure on the enemy team and not make the shields so convenient for them to hide behind at all times. A frontline with defensive items and Rejuvenate can heal so much, not to mention they have the ability to heal while shielding or to cast secondary shields, it all adds up too much for anybody to pose any real threat in terms of damage output.

Rainheart
10-22-2016, 09:24 AM
where there's a will, there's a way. the op must came from pub/casual matchs i supposed. the key is burn cards,, ppl would mostly buy cards that would help them head to head somebody else more than for the team. sometimes you feel that tankers, with shields, are op and guys all bought wrecker... really? are the supporters behind them clowns or somethings? actually these supporters are keys.

AliceMarg
10-22-2016, 09:50 AM
I will keep things simple. if a dragoz or bombking want to take out a tank, they can do it, none of the tanks can really dodge that well, as such, after taking down the shields, tanks become easy targets for them. also realise just how hard bk and dragoze hit. namly just shy of 1k per damage. in total it takes 1.5 havens to make up for one extra bk or dragoze hit on ferdinan. honestly, thats not that cost effective. of course, vs people who cant aim in those characters, frontliners seem op, but they really are not. honestly the problems your suggesting only exist as a hypothetical level, and competent players who understand how to play the game, can solve them in match.

sinosleep
10-22-2016, 10:18 AM
I'm sorry, but if you're losing to 3 tank teams that's a YOU problem. 2 tanks is the optimum number, with 3 tanks it actually throws the balance off too far and you'll realize you don't do enough damage to win. Ranged dps will SHRED any team with 3 tanks. Just focus on the other two players and the tanks become sitting ducks.

AngryBes
10-22-2016, 09:33 PM
Yea frontlines are basically free wins in this game.

Roster
10-23-2016, 08:54 AM
If you have drogoz and bomb king i don't why you can't win vs three or two tanks,just pick wrecker....

SilentSorrow
10-23-2016, 10:51 AM
If you have drogoz and bomb king i don't why you can't win vs three or two tanks,just pick wrecker....

I had a game like this yesterday vs 3 frontliners. Drogoz (me) and the Bomb King picked wrecker and we ended up taking them out with not too much trouble.

KicksBrickster
10-23-2016, 11:20 AM
I think the issue is less their shields and more the fact that their shields and HP are so high. I mean, Fernando has 16000 total health if you count his shield. Even with Wrecker, there's just no way to take that out without at least two or three people focused directly on him. This is an issue with all front-liners except Barik.

I would really like it if Hi-Rez would shift tanks away from having massive health pools and make their tanking reliant on their abilities.

Sasquatchias
10-23-2016, 11:43 AM
Personally I think what Hi-Rez should do is prevent Tanks from going "Out-of-Combat" with their shields.

One very big issue with fighting Fernando for example is when you start getting him low health - aside from him still having a decent pool of life still left, if he keeps his shield up and doesn't let a single shot worm through it he'll go out of combat, and start regaining everything he lost within seconds.

And this is in the middle of a fucking fight for a capture point.

This is straight up unfair for a majority of situations, and against two frontliners with shields there isn't too much you can do to prevent this.

Sasquatchias
10-23-2016, 11:46 AM
I think the issue is less their shields and more the fact that their shields and HP are so high. I mean, Fernando has 16000 total health if you count his shield. Even with Wrecker, there's just no way to take that out without at least two or three people focused directly on him. This is an issue with all front-liners except Barik.

I would really like it if Hi-Rez would shift tanks away from having massive health pools and make their tanking reliant on their abilities.

Personally I think their base health is fine for what it is, but Shield Health just gets too high when you factor in the health increase Cards for them.

I wouldn't be opposed however to Fernando getting more Tank-Oriented Abilities or changes to his abilities - I always thought his Charge should straight up be a knock back / up that works with his shield instead of leaving it to a card.

Roster
10-23-2016, 12:26 PM
Personally I think what Hi-Rez should do is prevent Tanks from going "Out-of-Combat" with their shields.

One very big issue with fighting Fernando for example is when you start getting him low health - aside from him still having a decent pool of life still left, if he keeps his shield up and doesn't let a single shot worm through it he'll go out of combat, and start regaining everything he lost within seconds.

And this is in the middle of a fucking fight for a capture point.

This is straight up unfair for a majority of situations, and against two frontliners with shields there isn't too much you can do to prevent this.

If Hirez creat a item for the bullet penetrates the shield of fernando or other tanks ,that will be the end of every tanks.
And Fernando shield have 10 sec of duration just wait and follow him or pass through the shield ...if you don't follow him he will regen like all champions

Sasquatchias
10-23-2016, 01:15 PM
If Hirez creat a item for the bullet penetrates the shield of fernando or other tanks ,that will be the end of every tanks.
And Fernando shield have 10 sec of duration just wait and follow him or pass through the shield ...if you don't follow him he will regen like all champions

Following and passing through the shield is not always an option, as there could very well be a teammate or two behind Fernando who will readily riddle your body with shots should you step up to try and finish him off.

Also the hit registration on his shield is incredibly weird, there have been times where I've been directly at his side and shot right at him only for it to somehow register as me hitting the shield despite hitting his body point blank.

Also I somewhat agree that a Shield Penetration item is a bit of a bad idea, because whats the point of a shield if it doesn't block someone's attacks?

Roster
10-23-2016, 01:50 PM
The problem is you need some teammates for push at the same time when fernando is low HP and him dps are behind.

Arcie
10-23-2016, 02:07 PM
1. Max HP % Damage - adding this will allow you to slice off a nice chunk of health from frontliners, either over time or instantly, when you catch them off guard with their shielding ability down. I know Skye has this as a basic effect in poison bolts, but I think the ability to deal it as instant damage would prove as a real threat to frontliners in particular. As a card effect, I think it should have a cooldown of around 10-12 seconds and deal 7.5% maximum health per level.

Any attack which does a percentage of HP is automatically unbalanced. Tanks are called tanks for a reason. There are ways to deal with tank heavy combos, but you won't see that until ranked due to the lack of casual draft. Also, 7.5% of max HP and 10-12 second cooldown? This would be healed within a second or two. Even against Fernando, 7.5% health is still under 600 health. This is less than a standard attack for everyone except Mal'Damba and Ruckus (individual bullet). So, at 600 health or less per hit every 10 seconds, how is this even playable?


2. Shield Penetration - Let's face it, shields are powerful as hell right now and do an overwhelmingly good job at defending anybody staying behind them, especially if you stack them together (looking at you, Fernando and Makoa). I think having skills that are able to pass through shields would make for a serious threat not just to the frontlines, but the enemies they're protecting as well, which is the essence of their role. Again, as a card I think this should have a cooldown, but probably around 5-8 seconds long.

Shield Penetration... like Wrecker? I mean, unless you mean a skill which does extra damage to shields to quicker get to the enemy... oh, that's just Wrecker! Start picking Wrecker when you see heavy tank combos. Have everyone grab it. If you go against 3 or 4 tanks, they deserve to get demolished by Wrecker! 150% increased damage to shields destroys shields and makes Fernando worthless, prevents Makoa from escaping, and drops Ruckus before he can get full rotation! Learn to build for your situation.


For obvious reasons, these damage concepts should never be applied to basic attacks because that would just be game breaking. I'll say it again, these kind of effects should only be usable as a skill, either as a base effect or a card effect.

Yeah, because they are worthless. They need to go on a character who is a throw-away that no one takes because a skill which does under 600 damage every 10-12 seconds when fully card built around one skill is pretty worthless!


Now as some of the comments already said, "but Fairy, just take bomb king and drogoz and give them wrecker" or "just have all your team take wrecker". That's all nice and dandy, but the shields that frontliners have is not the only issue here, there's also a problem with the difference in damage the frontliners take after buying a defensive item. Right now Blast Shield and Haven reduce 10% damage per level, which doesn't sound much but can amount to nearly 1/3 of your damage, which is a HUGE difference in your damage output. I think Haven and Blast Shield should be reduced from a base of 10% defense to 7.5%, because right now these defense cards just make Aggression a waste of space so your damage doesn't fall off so much. Here's a little math to make things clear:
Let's take Cassie vs Makoa as an example. Cassie buys aggression, giving her a little extra damage. Makoa gets Haven to reduce that damage.
At level 1, Cassie deals 735 damage, and Makoa takes 10% of that less, so 661.5 damage.
At level 2, Cassie deals 770 damage, and Makoa takes 20% of that less, so 616 damage.
At level 3, Cassie deals 805 damage, and Makoa takes 30% of that less, so 563.5 damage.
In this hypothetical scenario, Cassie's damage is reduced by a huge difference and she can barely keep up. Even without Makoa's shield, he could march through her arrows and make her empty her quiver before dying. And just to make it even worse, without Agression Cassie's damage would have fallen down to 490 vs a lv 3 Haven.

Cassie is STILL doing well over 10% of Makoa's maximum HP. This is also assuming she isn't hitting headshots. We are talking about the slowest champions in the game, easiest to headshot. Add in the headshots and a Cassie can drop a Makoa in under 6 hits, even with the build you show. Even at 490 per shot, no headshots, she is at about 10 shots against Makoa! So, we are talking about a character who can do 10% per hit, easy. So why do you think someone needs a skill which does 7.5% on a Makoa every 10 seconds?!


I know there are other people who say teams should mix Cauterize and Wrecker, but first let's be honest - how many times have you played against a team of 3 or 4 frontlines and actually won?

3 or 4 tanks is a pretty bad team comp. This would be easy to counter. What is the issue here? Everyone get Wrecker with maybe one running Cauterize. Get someone who can move the tanks off the point. That's it!

newhek
10-23-2016, 02:11 PM
2 Frontlines team (or even more) always work with low level match, and i can guarantee it since most new player don't know how to counter them. If you don't know how to counter tank, then you're dead, Simple as that.

But when the match level is above 30, it actually work but really hard to pull without good healer or good teamwork.
Because your flanker/damage dealer have to work ALONE . I'm sure you guys understand how hard it is to drain entire team health alone, or flanking alone is almost impossible if your skill is below Diamond Rank, or maybe even Master?

So in my opinion, it's a bit too unbalanced for new players but pretty weak against experienced player.
Since my level is already 50, so My opponent is at that level too. It's so damn hard to learn Champion you haven't played or its mastery is still below 6.

Mundal
10-23-2016, 04:42 PM
Just BK with wrecker and Grumpy build will do the job perfectly fine.

MiuiKy
10-23-2016, 05:49 PM
I wish they make Frontlines OP.. Then I could see more frontlines instead of a full team picking squishies and expecting someone else to be the Frontline..

ProfessorFart
10-23-2016, 06:55 PM
I wish they make Frontlines OP.. Then I could see more frontlines instead of a full team picking squishies and expecting someone else to be the Frontline..

This, will always and forever be the reason why people will complain about Frontlines.

coffemilk
10-23-2016, 07:15 PM
lol, what? 3 tanks = instant win?

drogoz, viktor, bombking are enough to squish them :cool:

3 tanks also means they are lacking either support, flank, or damage, thus making them venerable to long-range burst-damage like kinessa, or multi-side flanking attack from viktor or androxus. And then if there's bombking in the enemy team, a team with 3 tanks just gonna have a really-really bad time.

Another trick to supress a 3-tanks enemy strat, if your team already can kill the tank, make sure that one of your team member (preferably a flanker) to standby near their base. So when they respawn and running towards the objective on their horse, the aforementioned team member could shot them down from their horse and make them busy, so the rest of your team member could defend the objective more easily.