PDA

View Full Version : Buck- Paladins greatest Space Marine



MajorMolesto
10-15-2016, 04:07 PM
Sooo... where do I start? First of all I want to address that my opinion might be slightly subjective, I'm playing this game since like a week or so, mainly healers and front-liners, occasionally flankers, I favor McReaper and sincerely and genuine HATE Buck. For me he seems unkillable, he's super durable, mobile and can deliver a punch. The only downside to playing him would be his ultimate because it's not a tide turner, however his presence overall can turn the tide of battle fairly. Or rather unfairly, I think he's overpowered. I don't want to write an essay so let me just get to it:
-Lot's of HP, 3000 on a flanker?
-Self healing ability
-Long jump with great air control, once every 4 seconds
-Shotgun. He desn't have to aim really, just stay close and fire in general direction of your opponent
-I think his net should travel a bit slower, other than that I consider it ok
-His ultimate ability wouldn't be that strong if not the rest of his skillset, but well... reality is different

I think that nerfing him fairly should be rather easy, like removing air control from his jump, he wouldn't be able to run away as easily and this is simply illogical to me, darn physics! But hey, it's a game with wingless dragon that uses techwings instead and carries a freaking rocket launcher, right? Logic is a poor argument in this situation. Perhaps longer cooldown on his jump? It's just annoying that you can't kill him, he will either heal (up to 2k with his ult) or jump across the map and you can do nothing about it, especially if you have a weapon with damage falloff, like McReaper. A little less HP? Note I'm not talking about taking him down to 1900-2000, he's a big boy, he should be able to take some beating, but more like 2500-2700?

I dunno, I personally hate playing against Bucks but I don't want this to be yet another rage-topic, what are your opinions, thoughts? To me it's the Smite's Hercules all over again... There must be more people feeling like me on this one.


Sorry for my English in advance, it's my secondary language.

SilentSorrow
10-16-2016, 08:01 AM
Buck has high health and short leap, because the only way for him to do damage is to be right next to you. His damage is low though, compared to others and it has no range. You still have to aim a shotgun, it's just easy to hit at that range. He is good at 1v1 as anti flank and jumping in to burst down low health targets, but not so great at team fights due to poorer damage, close range, and no aoe. If he didn't have health and healing, he would be useless. And, you can counter his healing with cauterize if needed.

The real problem is that he counters whom you are playing in his design. He is supposed to give you a hard time.

SergeantBrown
10-16-2016, 08:20 AM
Or you could, y'know, not play as "I have the weakest kit in the game" Androxus.

ArchmageMC
10-16-2016, 09:59 AM
Buck needs his heal to go away and gain some extra health or something or get some extra damage or something. Hes so ineffective as a flanker its sad.

Heck if Skye or Evie want to, they can rush into an enemy team and still get a kill due to their high dps. Buck can barely 1v1 people in general when he has less DPS than fernando and less burst than fernando and half the health and no utility all for a really bad leap.

Dobby2Step
10-16-2016, 11:12 AM
Just keep in mind flankers are all about movement. For Bucks case he has to jump, and literaly be in someones face to maximize his potential. On other flankers that is pretty much a suicide run. Buck is very unique with his flanking style, and its always great to see how a top tier Buck is played. Its rare, but they are out there!

MajorMolesto
10-16-2016, 11:12 AM
I said I favor Androxus, not that I'm playing him all the time, I mainly play front-liners and healers, Androxus only when team composition allows it.

His heal basically grants him additional 1-2k hp, so he's a flanker that has same amount of hp and even more with heal than front-liner Barik. Yeah.. sure. His damage is lower, sure, but considered he can withstand way more than any other flanker in the game and deal only a bit less damage? It still doesn't scale in his favor not being overpowered. His shotgun deals something about 500 damage, right? So all flankers go to the dirt in four shots... Buck has 3000hp so Androxus has to land all six shots at a close range considered Buck won't use his heal. He will, he always does. And when that fail he will ult and heal again or jump away. I guess I should've mention all his life steal cards? Because if his self-heal is not enough he can have up to 50% lifesteal without buying life rip.

And, you can counter his healing with cauterize if needed
This is... simply stupid. Exactly what I said, Hercules among Paladins, you NEED to counterbuild him to win. Personally I don't think that's fair.
I'm not saying that buck is ridiculously overpowered, but his kit over all tips the scale of balance in his favor.
I noticed you like to pick and discuss his separate skills and features and compare it to other champions while I'm talking about his kit as a whole, because that's what makes him OP (imo).

SergeantBrown
10-16-2016, 12:08 PM
Actually, Buck deals 550 Burst damage, but yeah.

Also mind you, his Recovery skill only heals 250 HP per second for a total of 4 seconds, so basically any amount of focus fire from your team can easily burn through his healing -- heck, any 2v1 scenario is enough to give Buck a run for its money.

Raviollius
10-16-2016, 12:26 PM
Didn't even bother reading further than "he doesn't need to aim" and "I hate buck".

You have no idea what you're talking about.

MajorMolesto
10-16-2016, 01:27 PM
Didn't even bother reading further than "he doesn't need to aim" and "I hate buck".

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Hurr, look at me, I don't care, I'll just leave a cheeky, durr. Not to mention both points you mentioned aren't placed near each other in my text and you actually made it half the way through. If you have a tunnel vision and can't see I'm trying to be reasonable as I can then see yourself out and just don't bother leaving a post if you have nothing interesting to add. Pretty please.

Sasquatchias
10-16-2016, 02:24 PM
Quite frankly I'm not particularly seeing much of the issue on Buck considering the limitations and counters he has.

Firstly he has to be in close-medium range to deal any sort of decent damage, whereas most other Champions in the game can sort of outrange him, allowing for a good amount of poke before he gets to them unless he sneaks around or they fuck up hard.

Secondly Cauterize completely kills his heal, and allows him to easily be burst down by anyone with decent damage like every other Flanker.

Thirdly at any sort of range outside of close his Net is really easy to dodge or miss - its not exactly large, and is fairly slow moving compared to other Projectiles. And the only thing it grants is a Slow.

I think the only thing that should be done to Buck is increase the cooldown of his Heroic Leap to around 6 seconds, to put a bit of tamper on his mobility given how far it goes and can let him easily reach anyone who doesn't have some sort of upward mobility (such as Androuxs, Evie, Drogoz, arguably Kinessa who can get up on ledges should he chase.)

Silbergeist
10-16-2016, 05:16 PM
Heroic Leap's cooldown's already 6 seconds, with Seismic Wave at level 4 it goes down to 4 seconds. If anything, the card could be removed, but the skill cooldown's great as is.

Commando7
10-16-2016, 10:33 PM
My biggest problem with Buck is his heal skill. İ prefer his HP increase to 4000 if his heal skill remove

kargon
10-17-2016, 04:35 AM
Man, so much misinformation and misguided attempts to "FIX" a character that is perfectly balanced.

First of all, removing his heal and giving him 4k base health would make Haven / Blast Shield even STRONGER on him. His heal is SLOW (250 per sec). Giving him more health (and even more with defense item) along with his life steal cards, would make him absolutely unstoppable. This is a terrible idea.

Secondly, Cauterize (level 1 and 2) do NOT counter him. This is constant misinformation. If you are a flanker or a dps and you take Cauterize I to "counter" him, and he takes a defensive item to counter you, he's going to destroy you. You reduce his heal by 30%, and he reduces your total damage by 10%... while his damage against you is NOT reduced at all. This is a bad idea and it's constantly repeated as a "way to counter Buck!" when it's really just making it worse for you.

Third, his Heroic Leap (even on reduced cooldown) is fine. Without it, Buck would be absolutely useless. His damage falloff requires him to be mostly close. His health allows him to stick around for 1 or 2 extra shots (while taking some damage)... and hopefully long enough so he can leap away. This is how he is played. NOTE: THIS IS HOW HE IS PLAYED. This is his design.

Making it so he can't leap in/out would make him absolute TRASH.

He'd have to WALK into battle... super slow (no Nether Step, no Blink, no Stealth)... all while getting shot in his GIANT BODY, just so he can get close enough to do 2 shots before he dies. LOL. And if he's lucky, he barely does 1k dmg (550x2) before he leaps away. USELESS.

You want to engage with Heroic Leap? OK... you jump in... take a few shots... enemy dies... another enemy with ANY kind of range near you... you now die... because Heroic Leap is on a monster CD. Trading 1 for 1 is not a viable contribution for an entire game. SOMETIMES it's worth it if you can kill a very specific target, but 99% of the time you want to be killing more than you are dying. Heroic Leap lets him do this in the right hands.

Seriously, people... think about what you post before you post it.

NOW... if you want to counter him, STICK TOGETHER. If the enemy team has a Buck, and you are worried about getting singled out, then STICK WITH YOUR TEAM. He will be unable to do almost anything because the moment he leaps in, he will get focused and burned down even BEFORE his maximum reduced Heroic Leap CD is available (yes, much faster than 4 seconds).

This post is another example in the misguided adventures of players not utilizing all of the available tools - Loadouts, Items, Strategies, Techniques.

Fighting Buck is really a matter of using all of your options and increasing your knowledge. Not asking for nerfs. He does not need a nerf. In fact, his Net Shot damage buff actually needs to be fixed (doesn't award full damage bonus right now).

Edit: Forgot to add. Check out competitive play (tournaments). Buck is now finally picked about 1/4 of the time (in OB33 and prior, not so much). This is decent... but a far cry from the characters that are picked 75% of the time. This should be a hint at which chars are considered "too good to pass up" and which ones are situational (like Buck).

Silbergeist
10-17-2016, 05:05 AM
^This

Kargon's one of the only guys I see around here that knows how to play Buck (BDra's also good with him), that has the patience to speak out about Buck facts.

Also, about this:


He'd have to WALK into battle... super slow (no Nether Step, no Blink, no Stealth)... all while getting shot in his GIANT BODY, just so he can get close enough to do 2 shots before he dies. LOL. And if he's lucky, he barely does 1k dmg (550x2) before he leaps away. USELESS.

Not mentioning his fucking slow reload, which counterbalances all the mobility he has. It's not like Mal'Damba's reload, which comes with a good surprise, it's just a slow reload. Buck needs timing to be good, which people often neglect.

A good exercise that should be done by anyone feeling Buck is too powerful: play with him. After some matches you'll begin to understand how the character works, and will not only see he's not the superman he seems to be, but will also learn how to couter him. But basically, it's what Kargon said, stick with your team.

Still, he can also be countered by characters with fast high DPS, like Androxus, Cassie, Viktor, Skye and Kinessa (not everyone of those can directly duel him), or high bursts with good mobility, like Evie and Drogoz, or just by sustaining with heals, like Pip, Ying and Grohk. Front-liners can also duel Buck, Barik being one the best counters to him, also, Buck can't face a good Ruckus, it takes too long to kill him, and Ruckus can dish out a lot of damage. Makoa's also great, has a lot of health and can do 1000+ damage with his hook combo.

In the end, it's situational, and depends more on ocasion and player skill than the character itself, which's what I would call balanced.

kargon
10-17-2016, 05:09 AM
A good exercise that should be done by anyone feeling Buck is too powerful: play with him. After some matches you'll begin to understand how the character works, and will not only see he's not the superman he seems to be, but will also learn how to couter him. But basically, it's what Kargon said, stick with your team.

100%.

Play him. Play him a lot. Not just one or two games. Play him until you actually play against people that know how to fight against him. You'll be back here making posts like "WTF, Buck 100% useless against a team that sticks together. Buff please!".

Silbergeist
10-17-2016, 05:17 AM
You'll be back here making posts like "WTF, Buck 100% useless against a team that sticks together. Buff please!".

I can imagine this happening. lol
But that's when teamplay starts to gain importance.

PTLagger
10-17-2016, 06:47 AM
Ppl complain Buck is OP because they are always try to fight and kill Buck in 1v1 when he jump in but they forgot Buck is make for 1v1 combat, he is duelist for flanking and anti-flanker, that's their fault. Buck won't do anything if enemy stick together especially the team has Makoa, Fernando, Cassie

How to counter Buck? stick together with your team or at least 1 frontliner/supporter if you are damager. A speed build Fernando can chase and kill Buck whenever he want with his fireball can reduce Buck's Recovery effect by half, Cassie also have this skill called Blast Shot, plus Cassie with decent aim and dodge roll can 1v1 Buck due her arrow hitbox and she is the best duelist in Damage role

SilentSorrow
10-17-2016, 08:48 AM
Secondly, Cauterize (level 1 and 2) do NOT counter him. This is constant misinformation. If you are a flanker or a dps and you take Cauterize I to "counter" him, and he takes a defensive item to counter you, he's going to destroy you. You reduce his heal by 30%, and he reduces your total damage by 10%... while his damage against you is NOT reduced at all. This is a bad idea and it's constantly repeated as a "way to counter Buck!" when it's really just making it worse for you.
What else would you suggest then? If I pick Cauterize, it's not just to counter Buck, but supports as well. And sure Buck can build tanky and it doesn't help as much, but if you don't take Cauterize and he still builds tanky, he's just even more so now. I usually don't pick counters for just one foe, but based on their group composition.

ThatOthell159
10-17-2016, 11:37 AM
Lol buying cauterize just to counter Buck..... this is giving me some flashbacks.

Remember Illuminate and Skye :D?


But yes, Buck is useless when enemy team sticks together.

kargon
10-17-2016, 12:03 PM
What else would you suggest then? If I pick Cauterize, it's not just to counter Buck, but supports as well. And sure Buck can build tanky and it doesn't help as much, but if you don't take Cauterize and he still builds tanky, he's just even more so now. I usually don't pick counters for just one foe, but based on their group composition.

If enemy team has good heals, then Cauterize is still a good pick (because you will need to get it to level 3 anyway). The idea of picking Cauterize JUST for Buck is a bad idea unless you are in a long seige game and can get to 90% (Cauterize III). If you are a flanker, then go with Haven (assuming Buck is your worry). Let other characters (Fernando, Viktor, Pip, etc) apply Cauterize and you focus on flank and poke.