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LoboSora
10-12-2016, 07:33 PM
Ok, can be just me being a terrible player but...as Androxus when a Buck is after me and he is kind afar i shoot him and my bullets don't even tickle him while his shotgun from the same distance makes me feel like kissing a moving train...

Or i'm just being too whiny?

Cakeslice
10-12-2016, 07:38 PM
No, I feel like that too sometimes. But that's just the way he is. Something I don't understand, that he is a flank - yet he has high amounts of health and he can heal himself. I just don't see how that works. But, once again - just the way he is really.

PuNkY1
10-12-2016, 07:39 PM
Ye, Buck definitely needs to be nerfed.

ACorpse
10-12-2016, 07:43 PM
He has the most health of any flanker (3k) and a body shot from you won't do much damage (620 unbuffed) so it'll take 5 shots to kill him if he's not using his regen. He has a lot of other healing toys in his toolbox so you're probably at a severe disadvantage if you try to 1v1 him.

LoboSora
10-12-2016, 07:47 PM
He has the most health of any flanker (3k) and a body shot from you won't do much damage (620 unbuffed) so it'll take 5 shots to kill him if he's not using his regen. He has a lot of other healing toys in his toolbox so you're probably at a severe disadvantage if you try to 1v1 him.

Yep...that's exactly my point, he doesn't seem to belong on the flank class...its out of place and nobody seems to be talking about it.

ACorpse
10-12-2016, 08:01 PM
Well he's too low damage to be a DPSer, and his regen only affects himself so he's not support. He can't shield so frontline is out. If not a flanker (mobile, good 1vs1, lone wolf) then what is he?

HerrHanzi
10-12-2016, 08:03 PM
Yep...that's exactly my point, he doesn't seem to belong on the flank class...its out of place and nobody seems to be talking about it.

Well, you're not alone feeling this way, except for the part "he doesn't seem to belong on the flank class".

Buck is a flank class because his two main playstyles are:

1. Picking alone targets (mostly other flanks, like Androxus) a finish them in 1v1.

2. Mess with the enemy team to distract them from the objective.

The reason he is so tanky is to make him able to do both this strategies. Can you imagine if he has less health and/or no regen abilities? He would be useless, lol.

LoboSora
10-12-2016, 08:17 PM
Androxus doesn't have self heal without the right cards. I mean Buck belong to the flank class but in its actual state he way more powerful than the rest of his "people"

HerrHanzi
10-12-2016, 08:48 PM
Androxus doesn't have self heal without the right cards. I mean Buck belong to the flank class but in its actual state he way more powerful than the rest of his "people"

Oh, I see. Now I got your point.

Well, he certainly was designed to be this way. He's a flank, but he's an anti-flank character. He was made to pick lone targets (flank or not), kill them without any assistance, survive and go for the next one, all by himself, so the health and regen are there for this.

When I started playing this game, I actually thought that he was underpowered, because he's hard to get used to. But when someone starts playing good with him, he can make a lot of destruction. Maybe you was unlucky and played against good Buck players? I know that everytime I'm against a Buck, he's good, because no one likes to play with him untill they're good, lol.

LoboSora
10-12-2016, 09:13 PM
Oh, I see. Now I got your point.

Well, he certainly was designed to be this way. He's a flank, but he's an anti-flank character. He was made to pick lone targets (flank or not), kill them without any assistance, survive and go for the next one, all by himself, so the health and regen are there for this.

When I started playing this game, I actually thought that he was underpowered, because he's hard to get used to. But when someone starts playing good with him, he can make a lot of destruction. Maybe you was unlucky and played against good Buck players? I know that everytime I'm against a Buck, he's good, because no one likes to play with him untill they're good, lol.

I'm 100% sure i don't fight bad Buck players because its clear they know what they are doing, they perfectly control the air movement and have a good aim...so i'm unlucky i guess...and i need to git gud

Atlecx
10-12-2016, 09:18 PM
Buck is one of the best characters in the game. However, if Androxus can use Nether Step and Reversal efficiently, Androxus should win 1v1. If worst comes to worst, just Nether Step away. I do agree that Hi-Rez must nerf Buck. A health nerf would be a good start, and then maybe a nerf on the amount of healing.

ThatOthell159
10-12-2016, 10:09 PM
Yup, after the Skye nerf Buck will most likely be next on the list to obtain freelo in competitive.

Rip Skye no more insta-win Overtime with E :(

MotorKnight
10-12-2016, 11:03 PM
Vigor IV + a nice player with Buck = being invencible, infinite regen

SergeantBrown
10-13-2016, 03:30 AM
Buck is fine, it was always meant for him to be able to deter enemy flankers from using the flank lines.

If anything, it's Androxus' lackluster kit that's the OP's problem.

LascarCapable
10-13-2016, 04:04 AM
Wait, what happened ? One week sooner a lot of people were complaining about Buck being one of the weakest characters in the game, and now he's too good ?

I checked the recent patchnotes, I didn't found any buffs. What did I missed ?

SergeantBrown
10-13-2016, 04:46 AM
Let's see here...

A nerf to Evie's Ice Block
A nerf to Skye's Time Bomb
A nerf to Androxus' Revolver
A buff to Buck's hit registration

Did I miss anything else?

BlitherBlip
10-13-2016, 05:16 AM
Fuck a nerf, I want a redesign. How does he jump so high if his upper body is SO BIG?!?!?!?!

In all seriousness though, Buck is a sonovabitch to fight sometimes, but coming from someone who plays him a fair bit, your best bet is to keep moving- that net shot is surprisingly hard to hit sometimes. Tbh I think he only really needs a nerf to his Seismic Wave card, which lets him have a 4 goddamn second cooldown on that jump.

Infinitesimally
10-13-2016, 05:28 AM
Fuck a nerf, I want a redesign. How does he jump so high if his upper body is SO BIG?!?!?!?!

In all seriousness though, Buck is a sonovabitch to fight sometimes, but coming from someone who plays him a fair bit, your best bet is to keep moving- that net shot is surprisingly hard to hit sometimes. Tbh I think he only really needs a nerf to his Seismic Wave card, which lets him have a 4 goddamn second cooldown on that jump.

boi, it's a game. Especially when the game isn't based on how realistic the environment and the characters are


Let's see here...

A nerf to Evie's Ice Block
A nerf to Skye's Time Bomb
A nerf to Androxus' Revolver
A buff to Buck's hit registration

Did I miss anything else?

A nerf to Viktor's assault rifle hitbox that shoots through walls

Mundal
10-13-2016, 05:32 AM
Buck deals like what ? 550 dps and andro deals 1240 so unless you are missing your shots with andro you are most likely to suck playing as him. Ive seen andro players doing insane amount of damage this guy i played with did 197K and 75 kills with around 25 or so solo.

Buck has higher health because he lacks damage, his shotgun is pump action unlike barik who reloads all 6 ammo in one go. Buck's ultra deals double damage but resets cd rather than being a direct damage ultra like andro, sye, viktor or BK. So if you wanna lower his health to 2000hp give his shotgun like 900 dps and his ultra to insta regen all his health.

kargon
10-13-2016, 05:46 AM
Remember 2 or 3 weeks ago when everyone thought Buck was the worst character in the game? =O I wrote a guide to clear up some of the misinformation.

Buck the Destroyer Guide (http://forums.paladins.com/showthread.php?14843-Buck-the-Destroyer-Guide)

Anyway, there's some misinformation and misunderstanding in this thread, too.

Buck is a tried and true flanker. That's what he does. He can't stand on the front line and bang with people. His damage dropoff is too great. Androxus (on the other hand) can poke at mid-range and still do very good damage. Buck HAS to be close to do any amount of real damage. Even Skye can do damage at range further than Buck. This is where all 3 flankers are different.

Androxus has Nether Step and can maneuver around the map quickly (at the cost of sound).
Androxus has solid poke (mid-range) damage and is a a threat from multiple distances
Androxus can Nether Step in, weave a few shots, Nether Step, shots, Nether Step (chase or escape)

Skye can go invisible (twice)
Skye has built in Cauterize and solid Burst
Skye has decent escape due to two Stealth options

Buck has huge burst (at the cost of close range requirement)
Buck has more effective health (because he has to be close)
Buck usually needs to use his escape tool to initiate (drawback)
Buck has the slowest reload known to man (and only 6 total shots with no way to increase his clip).

Buck beats Androxus and Skye silly in a 1 vs 1 scenario, but comparing them and asking for a nerf because of that is pointless... they all do their jobs in different ways. Both Androxus and Skye can do their max damage from a distance much greater than Buck. Buck has to put his body on the line to kill (unless enemy is under 300-400 hp and still mid range - where 2 shots MIGHT kill).

In regards to the original poster, unless you initiate on Buck (meaning, if he initiates on you first), you are going to lose that fight 1 vs 1. Don't sweat it, it happens. You do some things much better than Buck (your weapon has range, your Ult has range, you have 3 Nether steps that you can weave in/out of battle, and you can reverse/send back incoming damage for even more burst).

Buck doesn't need to be nerfed. He's fine as is. Just as Androxus and Skye are. People tend to ask for balance changes before fully grasping their options (loadouts, items, strategies, etc).

You want the best counter strategy to Buck? Stay with your team. The end. Seriously... the team that sticks together when a Buck is on the enemy team is the team that stops Buck from doing almost anything. SUPER annoying. His options become; die a lot, or buy Cauterize and spam the team from distance.

Source: Level 15 Buck Player (200+ hours in Paladins).

Crookedtooth
10-13-2016, 08:13 AM
What kargon said /voteforclose

Seriously, Buck can be a major pain in the a** BUT he is not unbeatable, especially with Androxous. Movement (nether step), keeping distance and good aim is the key here.
As many pointed out before every class has it's strengths and weaknesses and yes, on 1on1 sometimes one strength can outbeat the other but this game is still a team game so staying near your team when there is a Buck on the other team will give said Buck a hard time.
If you are that kind of s0Lo r0xX0r ultra DP$ dmg kiddie that doesnt stay near his team/objective, like 80% of the kiddies that play this game you get what you deserve. Even as flank i figured out it is sometimes best to stay close to the team, for example if there is a Kinessa + Buck on the other team: netherstep/(jump)/stealth/fly forward kill her and get back to the team quickly and repeat once she respawned this way it will be hard for buck to 1on1 you.

Raviollius
10-13-2016, 08:49 AM
This is hilarious, now that people are understanding how to play Buck there's a wave of "he's OP! QQ" on the forums...

kargon
10-13-2016, 01:35 PM
This is hilarious, now that people are understanding how to play Buck there's a wave of "he's OP! QQ" on the forums...

Exactly. The circle of life!

SergeantBrown
10-13-2016, 02:21 PM
Skye has built in Cauterize and solid DPS
Fixed it for ya.

Skye has actually one of the worst Burst damage in the game; 150 damage per 1 shot is nothing to brag about.
What she does have however is DPS, and really good DPS at that too; 1500 damage per 1 second is serious business.

kargon
10-13-2016, 05:40 PM
Fixed it for ya.

Actually, no.

Don't try to "fix" someone else's post when you don't have the details correct.


Skye has actually one of the worst Burst damage in the game; 150 damage per 1 shot is nothing to brag about. What she does have however is DPS, and really good DPS at that too; 1500 damage per 1 second is serious business.

The burst comes out of nowhere. It's not sustained... She does M2 then M1, then has to reload. She's excellent at popping out of the shadows, bursting someone down, then leaving. Hence, burst. She's not Viktor, who just spits out damage at a constant rate. She can't afford to... she will die.

So yeah, while it's not as explosive as Buck's (because Buck front-loads a ton of damage in 0.1 second of landing, then it takes an additional 0.9 seconds to apply more damage - or, 1764 in 1.0 seconds flat), but it's still 2,250 in 1.5 seconds, not including the damage and damage buff from Poison Bolt.

SergeantBrown
10-13-2016, 08:01 PM
What you guys are calling "Burst" is what I'd rather call "really high DPS rate".

"DPS" doesn't actually need to be constant or sustained throughout many seconds; it just needs to be "X Damage Per 1 Second".

ThatOthell159
10-13-2016, 09:26 PM
What you guys are calling "Burst" is what I'd rather call "really high DPS rate".

"DPS" doesn't actually need to be constant or sustained throughout many seconds; it just needs to be "X Damage Per 1 Second".

Let X be Viktor.

If X does 10 damage in 5s and does no damage in another 5s. His total DPS = 1.

Damage per second equates to Total damage/ time interval.

I know my math.

kargon
10-13-2016, 09:31 PM
What you guys are calling "Burst" is what I'd rather call "really high DPS rate".

"DPS" doesn't actually need to be constant or sustained throughout many seconds; it just needs to be "X Damage Per 1 Second".

The problem here is that Skye isn't a character that can sustain that DPS for a long period of time. She has to burst people down, or she gets shredded (which is why she loses to Buck, even when initiating). So while it looks good mathematically when you average it out, it doesn't play out like that in an actual game.

Skye is the type of character that mostly has to burst and kill someone (at least when her enemies know what to expect, have proper buildouts, and strategies). The longer she is exposed, the more dangerous it becomes for her. In contrast, Buck is the type of character that can appear, do some burst, but then stick around for a couple more shots because of his higher health pool and heal (even though it's slow).

Skye: 15x150 = 2,250 in 1.4s (starting from first shot)
Androxus: 6x620 = 3,720 in 2.5s (starting from first shot)
Buck: 6x550 = 3,300 in 4.5s (starting from first shot)

Now let's compress these down to relevant burst times (initiate to kill) along with any other relevant skills. For the sake of this test, let's give a 2 second window to burst down a target.

Skye: 30% health over 5s + 2,250 in 1.4s starting from first shot) + 5% bonus dmg on 2,250 = 2,362.5. In the 2 second window, Poison Bolts have done 40% of 30% Max Health of the enemy (let's say 2000 health enemy). That's an additional 240 damage (600 damage x 0.4).

In total, Skye is doing 2,362 + 240. Or 2,602.5 damage. 2 seconds. From stealth. Note: Skye doesn't even have to do anything for the last 0.5 seconds in this example. It's really just 1.5 seconds (and then she's reloading). She gets an additional damage boost if all 3 Poison Bolts hit the target. That would be 2,475 + 30% of the opponent's max health (she can just leave after the first burst... the remaining damage will still go through). On a 2,000 HP char, that's 600 health, bringing Skye's 1.5 sec burst up to 3,075.

Androxus: 5 shots in 2.0 seconds (starting from first shot). That's 3,100 damage. He has no silent initiate except for strolling up on a person. Damage is respectable, initiate - not so much. One single miss and he loses 20% of his damage (down to 2,480).

Another thing to remember: If Skye misses one shot, she loses 150 damage. She goes from 3,075 in 1.5 sec of effort to 2,925, to 2,775... etc. Compare that to Androxus.

Buck: Heroic Leap initiate from distance (350), Net Shot (150), Shot, Shot sequence is 1.9 seconds for 1,764 damage from a much quieter initiate than Androxus (there's no massive sound queue alerting you that Buck is incoming).


Skye has actually one of the worst Burst damage in the game; 150 damage per 1 shot is nothing to brag about.

For a flanker... maybe not, right? =I

Basically, if she initiates properly, she can "work" for 1.5 sec and apply 3,075 damage (on a 2,000 hp char). She's stealth. It's hard to see or hear her coming. Androxus can do more damage total, but one miss drastically cuts his damage... and his initiate isn't nearly as clean (way more obvious).

Buck is somewhere in the middle. Good initiate. Decent burst, but added sustainability. This is why neither Androxus or Skye beat Buck in a heads up. He's durable. Skye get's really good burst and initiate. Androxus get's high damage and good poke from mid-range as well as chase. Buck stays durable, has respectable burst, pretty good chase, and good initiate.

ThatOthell159
10-13-2016, 09:41 PM
Only Skye newbies play gank/ burst tactics when enemies buy illuminate.

Instead, try buying Haven + Deft hands fighting face to face and you will be surprised how well she spars against other non-frontline champions.

LoboSora
10-13-2016, 10:27 PM
I never said that i'm 100% that Buck needs a nerf. As i've stated i can only be a terrible Androxus player...honest its the most likely thing :-D

Phoenixgamez
10-13-2016, 10:45 PM
Buck hasn't been a problem for me. If anything I think he is pretty well balanced. Seriously, I've done so good against him and I hardly see him played. Depends on how long you've been playing and your skills I guess...

AngryBes
10-14-2016, 12:24 AM
I hate his jump

RavenCorella
10-14-2016, 03:28 AM
So, flankers:

Viktor - Average speed, no air control, high damage output, no self healing.
Androxus - Slow speed, average air control, average damage output, healing of 400 per 15 seconds.
Buck - Slow speed, above average air control/mobility, great damage output, healing of 1,000 + cards, oh and, huge life pool.

Buck is essentially as mobile as androxus, as dangerous as viktor, has the same heal potence as a pip which is support.
Evie and the others have like 600 healing tops, this guy has over 1k.

His self sustain really needs a nerf.

Hasheesh
10-14-2016, 06:06 AM
Maybe that was how he was designed. After many direct 1v1 encounters against good Bucks I reached the conclusion that you can only land couple shots before he gets too close then you have to run away with nether step. you can just fly up and start shooting him but I think Androxus range needs buffing for this to work against Buck.

SergeantBrown
10-14-2016, 01:05 PM
Let X be Viktor.

If X does 10 damage in 5s and does no damage in another 5s. His total DPS = 1.

Damage per second equates to Total damage/ time interval.

I know my math.
Under the context of the game, I see nothing that fires for 5 seconds and then stops for 5 more seconds outside of maybe firing all your shots and reloading afterwards.
Now your math isn't necessarily wrong, but "Total Damage/Time Interval" isn't what "Damage Per Second" actually is. You may simplify that into a larger purview of DPS, sure, but at that large of a range it's falling more into the category of "Damage Over Time (https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Damage_over_time)" than DPS.

According to (https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Damage_per_second) many (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Damage_per_second) sources (http://rimworldwiki.com/wiki/Damage_per_Second), Damage Per Second is the "overall damage done over 1 second", with its math being the following:
Damage Per Second=[(Min Damage + Max Damage)/2]/Rate of Fire

Because of how damage in Paladins is only affected by range and not by RNG, we can simplify the math into the following:
Damage Per Second=Damage done/Rate of Fire

So let's take Skye's DPS with this calculation. Knowing that Skye does 150 damage (Damage done) every 0,1 seconds (Rate of Fire) Sdps would be the following:
Sdps=150/0,1
Sdps=1500

Now to give credit where credit is due, "Burst damage" can also be seen as a way of DPS opposite to "DoT". That being said, while (http://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Burst) most (http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Burst_damage) sources (https://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/t/what-does-burst-damage-mean/1543430/21) define Burst as "damage done over a short span of time", that span of time may also include "over 0 seconds" -- or as I like to call it; "instantaneous".

Under the context of Paladins, "instantaneous" may as well be considered "when the enemy takes damage". This is why champions like Kinessa, Bomb King, Grover, among others, may be considered as "Burst" champions because they can deal large amounts of damage in just 1 shot (or in 1 detonation when it comes to Bomb King).

Nevertheless, my point here wasn't to express the possibility of Skye being able to perform sustained damage (because everyone knows Skye isn't meant to be played like a Viktor); I was just correcting someone on the terms I believe are more adequate for the type of damage done.


Androxus - Slow speed, average air control, average damage output, healing of 400 per 15 seconds.
Buck - Slow speed, above average air control/mobility, great damage output, healing of 1,000 + cards, oh and, huge life pool.

Androxus - average damage output
Buck - great damage output
I'm sorry, but have you been smoking w33d when you made that post?

Buck has practically half the DPS potential Androxus has (611 DPS vs 1240 DPS) while having worse Burst than him (550 burst vs 620 burst), and while Androxus is definitely lacking in some areas, his damage potential is not one of them.

kargon
10-14-2016, 01:36 PM
So, flankers:

Viktor - Average speed, no air control, high damage output, no self healing.
Androxus - Slow speed, average air control, average damage output, healing of 400 per 15 seconds.
Buck - Slow speed, above average air control/mobility, great damage output, healing of 1,000 + cards, oh and, huge life pool.

Buck is essentially as mobile as androxus, as dangerous as viktor, has the same heal potence as a pip which is support.
Evie and the others have like 600 healing tops, this guy has over 1k.

His self sustain really needs a nerf.

Viktor is dangerous from WAY longer range than Buck. Like, way, WAY farther of a distance. He can stand in a position far away enough to allow him to see incoming threats and shoot them as they are approaching (or start running to gain new position... at any time... with no CD), though the further from the team, the more of a target he becomes for Skye (if she is in the match). Viktor also has more sustained damage and he can track a target while damaging them. Buck has 6 shots to do his damage over a long period of time. Buck is Burst, Viktor is sustained damage.

Androxus has mid-range poke. His damage is excellent and comes in big chunks from up-close to mid-range. More damage per shot than Buck, and can do it from MUCH further away. His Nether Step also allows him to get much further away as well as chase much better.

Buck has to be close. It's that simple. If he didn't have the ability to last for a few seconds in-close, he would be absolutely useless. He already has a hard counter... stay together. The team that stays together drastically reduces the impact Buck will have on your team.

This is really an issue of learning what each character's strengths, weaknesses, and gameplan are. Buck is one of the only characters in the game that don't really need any chance (aside from fixing his damage buff on Net Shot which only gives 13-15% right now, and should be giving 30%). You can counter him with every single team... no matter the comp (stick closer together).

Not to single you out, but these are the types of posts that hurt the game. Many players are not willing to put in the time to learn the ins and outs of a character, enemy characters, loadouts, items, strategies, counters, etc. They "feel" something is too strong and end up complaining about it on the forums. It becomes the defacto opinion (much like before, Buck was considered one of the worst characters until actual Buck players put in work). Then, the developers kowtow to the vocal minority and make tweaks, thus ruining a character (see Skye).

Note: Look at the forum (OP). Look how many people are complaining about Viktor and how he needs a nerf. As a Buck player (and someone with 200+ hours in OB 33/34 alone), I don't see him as an issue at all. I think he's decent, he contributes to any team, but he doesn't stand out as anything special.

PTLagger
10-14-2016, 02:00 PM
Buck isn't OP, he has high HP, high sustain but low DPS, very long reload time and big hitbox that easy to hit because his design is a bulky flanker and his jobs are Flanking and Anti-flanker in 1v1 close combat (duelist). This is a way to counter him: just stay near your team or a frontliner, don't go alone, use Cauterize card then Buck can't do anything to your team (even good Cassie with Cauterize can take him down in 1v1)
*Not many player use Buck because he is hard to play and learn his combo. But if someone main Buck, mean he/she might be a decent to good Buck player

LoboSora
10-14-2016, 02:15 PM
Viktor is dangerous from WAY longer range than Buck. Like, way, WAY farther of a distance. He can stand in a position far away enough to allow him to see incoming threats and shoot them as they are approaching (or start running to gain new position... at any time... with no CD), though the further from the team, the more of a target he becomes for Skye (if she is in the match). Viktor also has more sustained damage and he can track a target while damaging them. Buck has 6 shots to do his damage over a long period of time. Buck is Burst, Viktor is sustained damage.

Androxus has mid-range poke. His damage is excellent and comes in big chunks from up-close to mid-range. More damage per shot than Buck, and can do it from MUCH further away. His Nether Step also allows him to get much further away as well as chase much better.

Buck has to be close. It's that simple. If he didn't have the ability to last for a few seconds in-close, he would be absolutely useless. He already has a hard counter... stay together. The team that stays together drastically reduces the impact Buck will have on your team.

This is really an issue of learning what each character's strengths, weaknesses, and gameplan are. Buck is one of the only characters in the game that don't really need any chance (aside from fixing his damage buff on Net Shot which only gives 13-15% right now, and should be giving 30%). You can counter him with every single team... no matter the comp (stick closer together).

Not to single you out, but these are the types of posts that hurt the game. Many players are not willing to put in the time to learn the ins and outs of a character, enemy characters, loadouts, items, strategies, counters, etc. They "feel" something is too strong and end up complaining about it on the forums. It becomes the defacto opinion (much like before, Buck was considered one of the worst characters until actual Buck players put in work). Then, the developers kowtow to the vocal minority and make tweaks, thus ruining a character (see Skye).

Note: Look at the forum (OP). Look how many people are complaining about Viktor and how he needs a nerf. As a Buck player (and someone with 200+ hours in OB 33/34 alone), I don't see him as an issue at all. I think he's decent, he contributes to any team, but he doesn't stand out as anything special.

That is exactly why i never stated that he is downright broken and i can't beat him even being a good player. As i've stated in the origina post and in some replies and came here to ask because i "felt" he was too strong but also don't know if that is a fact...as i've said i also feel that i'm not a good player.

That is why i came here, to hear out you guys opinions to know more about him and what i'm doing wrong.

kargon
10-14-2016, 03:08 PM
Buck isn't OP, he has high HP, high sustain but low DPS, very long reload time and big hitbox that easy to hit because his design is a bulky flanker and his jobs are Flanking and Anti-flanker in 1v1 close combat (duelist). This is a way to counter him: just stay near your team or a frontliner, don't go alone, use Cauterize card then Buck can't do anything to your team (even good Cassie with Cauterize can take him down in 1v1)
*Not many player use Buck because he is hard to play and learn his combo. But if someone main Buck, mean he/she might be a decent to good Buck player

Don't pick Cauterize to try to counter just Buck. Pick it for other reasons. Picking it specifically to deal with Buck is a trap... it doesn't work until you have Cauterize III. I explained it in another post, but I'll repaste it here:


Buck picks Haven I (or Blast Shield depending on enemy team comp). He effectively has 3300 HP now, while you have the same amount of HP (no additional armor to cut through).

You run 30% reduced healing (until you get enough money to buy 60%) which means you reduce his Recovery to 700-875 (assuming 4-5s Recovery duration). With Haven I, that's 770-962.5 effective health.

Most decent builds run Giga Siphon at II. So, every time Buck hits you he's gaining 70% of 20% of the damage. So, he hits you for 550, gains 110 healing, which is reduced to 77 per point blank shot. Let's be conservative and say Buck only hits you a total of 4 times, that's an additional 308 health and a total of 338.8 effective health.

I'm not even going to bother going into the numbers from the dmg boost of Net Shot.

My current build also runs Rapid Sustain IV (40% additional healing below 50% health).

So let's add this up.

3300 Effective Base Health (with Haven 1) 770-962 Effective Health through Recovery 338 Effective Health assuming 4/6 shots Increase all values if below 50% Health

Good luck getting through 4500+ Effective Health before he kills you. Given that you took Cauterize instead of Haven, you are now a MUCH easier target to kill, while Buck has both Haven (or Blast shield depending on the matchup) and healing.

This is why Buck crushes every character in a 1 V 1 scenario (that isn't a tank). You can take Cauterize, and he will kill you before it matters (because now you are easier to kill). Or you can take Haven, and it takes him longer to kill you, but he also heals for 30% more (early on). It's a no-win situation.

So, that one person that got Cauterize to counter Buck basically wasted their Item pick. If, however, there is a Buck and a Ying, then you are forced to rush Cauterize 2 anyway. Until you get to that point, hope that either Buck or Ying are bad and don't work together.

Because of Buck's higher health, he can afford to take Cauterize... and this is what makes him scary. He still has 3000 base HP and the ability to heal a decent amount back, whereas his targets heals are typically less effective and he can afford to make them even worse.

In Seige, since the game lasts longer, and the enemy team SHOULD have a healer along with Buck, Caut II+ is a decent choice after the initial Haven I. However, he's going to have Haven I or Haven II along with Cauterize II... so there's that.

Basically, don't get Cauterize for JUST Buck. If they have a healer as well (which they should), then definitely get it after Haven I (assuming their other DPS is also direct damage so Haven I is useful).

If you want to make Buck a non-factor, get Haven and stick with your team. Until you get Cauterize III (which doesn't happen that often in Payload, but much more often in Seige), you are wasting points unless they have a healer (then it's worth it after Haven I).

ThatOthell159
10-14-2016, 08:24 PM
Under the context of the game, I see nothing that fires for 5 seconds and then stops for 5 more seconds outside of maybe firing all your shots and reloading afterwards.
Now your math isn't necessarily wrong, but "Total Damage/Time Interval" isn't what "Damage Per Second" actually is. You may simplify that into a larger purview of DPS, sure, but at that large of a range it's falling more into the category of "Damage Over Time (https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Damage_over_time)" than DPS.

According to (https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Damage_per_second) many (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Damage_per_second) sources (http://rimworldwiki.com/wiki/Damage_per_Second), Damage Per Second is the "overall damage done over 1 second", with its math being the following:
Damage Per Second=[(Min Damage + Max Damage)/2]/Rate of Fire

Because of how damage in Paladins is only affected by range and not by RNG, we can simplify the math into the following:
Damage Per Second=Damage done/Rate of Fire

So let's take Skye's DPS with this calculation. Knowing that Skye does 150 damage (Damage done) every 0,1 seconds (Rate of Fire) Sdps would be the following:
Sdps=150/0,1
Sdps=1500

Now to give credit where credit is due, "Burst damage" can also be seen as a way of DPS opposite to "DoT". That being said, while (http://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Burst) most (http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Burst_damage) sources (https://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/t/what-does-burst-damage-mean/1543430/21) define Burst as "damage done over a short span of time", that span of time may also include "over 0 seconds" -- or as I like to call it; "instantaneous".

Under the context of Paladins, "instantaneous" may as well be considered "when the enemy takes damage". This is why champions like Kinessa, Bomb King, Grover, among others, may be considered as "Burst" champions because they can deal large amounts of damage in just 1 shot (or in 1 detonation when it comes to Bomb King).

Nevertheless, my point here wasn't to express the possibility of Skye being able to perform sustained damage (because everyone knows Skye isn't meant to be played like a Viktor); I was just correcting someone on the terms I believe are more adequate for the type of damage done.



I'm sorry, but have you been smoking w33d when you made that post?

Buck has practically half the DPS potential Androxus has (611 DPS vs 1240 DPS) while having worse Burst than him (550 burst vs 620 burst), and while Androxus is definitely lacking in some areas, his damage potential is not one of them.

With that calculation Kinessa has the most "DPS" LUL.

FenexDragonis
10-14-2016, 08:59 PM
He has the most health of any flanker (3k) and a body shot from you won't do much damage (620 unbuffed) so it'll take 5 shots to kill him if he's not using his regen. He has a lot of other healing toys in his toolbox so you're probably at a severe disadvantage if you try to 1v1 him.

you know whats funny is he has the same amount of health as barik

SergeantBrown
10-14-2016, 10:16 PM
With that calculation Kinessa has the most "DPS" LUL.
Nope.avi

Kinessa's Carbine: 150/0,15=1000 DPS
Viktor's Assault Rifle: (130/0,1)+160=1460 DPS
Skye's Crossbow: 150/0,1=1500 DPS

The math still holds fine.

ThatOthell159
10-14-2016, 10:42 PM
Nope.avi

Kinessa's Carbine: 150/0,15=1000 DPS
Viktor's Assault Rifle: (130/0,1)+160=1460 DPS
Skye's Crossbow: 150/0,1=1500 DPS

The math still holds fine.

Yup.gif

You said damage over the course of 1 second, but you never stated what you can do before that "1 second timer" begins. And thereby I conclude Kinessa does the most damage in one second when she has fully charged her weapon.

ThatOthell159
10-14-2016, 10:47 PM
Well obviously that is not true, Kinessa does not have the highest DPS, doesn't matter what you do or what calculations you come up with if the original formula is wrong.

DPS = Damage per Second = Total Damage/ Time Interval

Silbergeist
10-14-2016, 10:49 PM
Buck - Slow speed, above average air control/mobility, great damage output, healing of 1,000 + cards, oh and, huge life pool.

Buck is essentially as mobile as androxus, as dangerous as viktor, has the same heal potence as a pip which is support.
Evie and the others have like 600 healing tops, this guy has over 1k.

Actually, Buck's one of the fastest characters, it seems. I'm not too sure because this kind of information hasn't been shown recently, but from the last updates they made about it, Buck has 370 movement speed, which's the highest champions can get. But then again, there's no information about the new champions, and Hi-Rez may have changed old attributes, so I'm just speculating here.

Also, Buck's damage output is one of the lowest coming from a damage oriented character. I mean this based on DPS. His base damage is good enough, still, Androxus has more damage. Buck's heal also isn't so powerful, it's 1000 through 4 seconds, not instant, also, other character's have their way to do something like it, like Androxus' Reversal, which consumes all damage that comes his way and then reverts it as a projectile dealing 75% of the damage received.

And Viktor isn't a flanker.

SergeantBrown
10-15-2016, 05:40 AM
And thereby I conclude Kinessa does the most damage in one second when she has fully charged her weapon.
I'm sorry, were you talking about Sniper Mode all this time? Let me fix that.

Sniper Mode: 1300/1,4=929 DPS

Now in Sniper Mode's particular case, 1,4 seconds isn't actually its maximum fire rate, but from personal experience I can tell you that, despite not having actual numbers for it, spamming the fire button would not make her reach nearly as much DPS as Viktor or Skye.

ThatOthell159
10-15-2016, 06:50 PM
spamming the fire button would not make her reach nearly as much DPS as Viktor or Skye.

Name something that can outdamage Skye. (Insert laughing pic here)

ThatOthell159
10-15-2016, 07:05 PM
Name something that can outdamage Skye. (Insert laughing pic here)

Answer: No one.

MajorMolesto
10-15-2016, 07:40 PM
like Androxus' Reversal
No. Reversal is useless in 1v1 because your opponent stops shoting instantaneously, it's only good for reload with cards, unless you're fighting a complete noob or have a lightning reflex t catch just that one shot. Reversal should be way less noticeable to be useful in 1vs1.

JestaQwky
10-15-2016, 11:36 PM
The biggest problem with Buck are his card choices. He can have like 40% life steal for the duration of Recovery AND increase the duration of Recovery AND reduce the cool down of Recovery AND his net shot gives a chunk of lifesteal while they are under the affects of it from a card, cards alone if a buck wanted they could easily have 50+% lifesteal on a shotgun with the health of a barik and no panzy need to hide behind a puny shield. Considering that, let's talk about that ult of double damage and free refresh on all of his skills that basically make him a train. I suppose all of this is stifled by a slow reload that does 1 shell at a time until filled. That gets remedied by tier 1 deft hands. Then you have a buck that can at peak lifesteal (with out the item) for around 500+ a shot at close range. = Unkillable when he gets the jump on you with it.

So yeah, Buck is in a pretty big need for a health nerf of at least 500 and a card rewrite to drop his life steal to a reasonable cap. Needing to buy cauterize for a flanker is absurd let alone the need to get it to at least 60% to kill him before you die.

Commando7
10-16-2016, 11:44 PM
I think flankers don't have heal ability specially flanker like Buck (he have 3k hp, insane mobility and he can't shots miss because he use shotgun and his bullets spread)