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YingLee
10-05-2016, 10:39 AM
I've played quite a bit of Ying so far and here's the feedback I have so far.

For information, the deck I'm running is this. (http://i.imgur.com/10wgrA3.jpg) As for items, I start with chronos at all times, then get kill to heal and either bastion or blast shields, then upgrade chronos if there's still time.
Most of this will be based on the Payload gamemode, as it's what I mainly play, since the other gamemode is horribly designed, however I've played some games & gotten the similar impression there.

Now for the feedback. I'll go more in-depth below.

Basic attacks deal too much damage
Illusions heal too much and too burst based
Illusion heal targeting is unreliable and annoying
Ultimate sprites are too weak
Shatter illusion pathfinding is absolutely horrendous
Dimensional link is often extremely confusing and there's no point upgrading it
Dimensional link feels like it should be able to be used as a short blink, but has trouble with it



Basic attacks deal too much damage
Currently the full burst deals a total of 700 damage without any boosts. This happens every 0.7s or 1000 damage per second if you hit everything.
The closest comparison would be Grohk, as he's also a support with a short to medium range hitscan weapon that continuously deals damage. He deals 850 damage and has to stop attacking significantly faster than Ying, while also having a significantly longer "reload" animation. Sure he might gain charges when not firing without reloading, but that's not nearly enough to compare to the quarter of the time Ying spends reloading compared to Grohk.
For more info on this, watch this video. (https://youtu.be/Y2m7EWO4K4w)
(This is without any of the impacting cards)
Suggestion
Either just flat out remove like 20% from the damage or move a more significant amount to the bonus damage.
Alternatively, make a new bonus passive which causes Ying to deal extra damage to targets hit in the past X (3-5?) seconds by Shatter. This would make Ying rely more on shatter when she wants to deal damage, compared to the current scenario where you can have two healers up while dealing 1000 dps.



Illusions heal too much and too burst based
800 healed per second in a burst is insane. It just seems to be too strong compared to other heals in the game, especially if you consider how good the uptime is compared to other heals in the game at the moment.
Suggestion
Change it from 400 instant per illusion to 300 every second over 1s per illusion, maybe 250 with a card that increases the amount healed by 25-35 per point.


Illusion heal targeting is unreliable and annoying
I haven't extensively studied how the heals are targeted, but I believe from what I noticed it targets the lowest hp% ally in range.
Suggestion
Heal the lowest flat health ally in range, and give a priority boost of say 50% to Ying herself.
For example, if there's a 400 hp Kinessa, a 500 hp Ying and a 500 hp Makao in range of an illusion. I believe the heal priority should be first the Ying, then the Kinessa once Ying is over 600, then the Makao when Kinessa has more health than him.


Ultimate sprites are too weak
Compared to the actual illusion heals, the sprites just seem too weak. They seem to be more useful as a teleport location out of combat than as an actual healing tool. Usually they are left behind by teammates in 1-2 seconds so they'll heal about as much as a Grover's Blossom. Not to mention often allies will simply be riding their horse from spawn to battle.
Suggestion
Either make the sprites follow allies around while healing them, heal for a greater amount or apply a small shield on everyone when activated


Shatter illusion pathfinding is absolutely horrendous
More often than not, Illusions will get stuck on allies/obstructions, walk the wrong way initially or just sit on a deployable. Even if they don't, usually they'll stand infront of a shield or stand too far away from an enemy.
Suggestion
Adjust the pathfinding to avoid obstacles, allow illusions to phase through allies, make them attempt to get as close to enemies as possible and change the targeting priorities (Low health enemies > high health enemies > deployables). If possible make them try to bypass shields, however this will mainly already be fixed by above fixes.


Dimensional Link is often extremely confusing and there's no point upgrading it
Currently it's hard to know in a glance where you'll end up if you Dimensional Link, thus often teleporting you to somewhere extremely close or even closer to the enemies you're trying to escape.
There's currently very little if any reason to pick any of the cards that improve Dimensional Link.

Efficiency (Cooldown Reduction): I've never had a moment where I needed Dimensional Link but it was on Cooldown
Rewind (Swapping to a dead illusion spawns one): In my opinion the currently best card for Dimensional Link, but still very rarely useful. The only case I could picture this being good is when you shatter two nearby illusions then Link to them once they explode to be closer to the enemies.
Shuffle (Movement Speed): This will rarely ever help, if you use it offensively, it won't do much. Whereas if you use it defensively, you'll either be too far from enemies for it to do something, or you'll still die regardless.
Spring Forward (Increased duration): How much do you plan on hopping around? After 2-3 hops they just shoot both locations and you die regardless

Suggestion
Have a marker on screen which indicates which direction the Dimensional Link target is and how far away it is, as there are already markers for Illusions, this shouldn't be too hard.
As for the cards, replace them with more useful things, such as a heal to get back into combat faster, a temporary damage reduction or damage boost (for people who want to use it offensively) or spawn an (optionally shattered) Illusion where you initiated Dimensional Link from.


Dimensional link feels like it should be able to be used as a short blink, but has trouble with it
At the moment, there seems to be some delay before you can Dimensional Link after placing a Illusion. This seems kind of odd, as often you'll want to hop to a newly placed illusion instantly. For example if you're trying to hop up onto a platform you can't normally reach or move forward faster.
Suggestion
Remove the delay before you can use Dimensional Link after placing an illusion. If you placed an illusion in the last X (0.3-0.5?) seconds, attempt to prioritize that over the furthest illusion.

DefB
10-06-2016, 10:14 AM
I also play a lot of Ying, currently L11. My loadout and card choice change depending on my enemy team. I wouldn't recommend a static build every time.

Basic Attacks
Ying: 700 every .7
Pip: 600 per sec, aoe (aoe cauterize, anyone?)
Ghrok: 850 per sec, with limitations
Grover: Up to 1200 based on range

She fires the fastest, but her LMB certainly isn't the best. Pip's can AoE Cauterize, Grover can two shot someone. I haven't unlocked Ghrok. Without the bonus damage, she deals the same as Pip (less actually, since you missed at least 1/5) without the benefit of aoe.


Illusions
400/sec x2 seems like a lot on its own. Unless loadout points are spent to increase hp, many characters can kill them in two or three shots. They are also incredibly vulnerable to aoe. Combine this with the fact that they are also her main source of damage in a melee, meaning they are not healing all the time. Her total healing is very dependent on the player. An aggressive player will heal little, a passive player will damage little.

As for targetting, the odds of one player being targetted by both illusions, when multiple players are around at sub 75%hp, is low. This is due to the randomized targetting, and the delay between illusions one and two. If you are damaging and healing equally, then you usually have one illusion stationary, while the other is chasing people down and you maintain this rotation for most of the game. I have no problem with her targetting. I've saved many a life and never thought, "Why wasn't my illusion healing the person with the lowest hp?" they almost always do.

Ultimate
I was under the impression that the heal was a buff (a prism) placed upon the player, not 5 separate illusions that follow everyone around. I haven't seen an abundance of illusions when I pop her ult. The prism is the equivalent of a personal illusion for everyone. Not bad, all things considered.

Dimensional Link

I'm sorry, but you are way off on this one. DLink is one of Ying's best abilities. If you maintain awareness of illusions, you almost always have a decent idea of where you'll be. It's not like they move unless you Shatter them, and if you keep DLink in mind as you approach each engagement, you'll keep your furthest illusion in a safe place. Warping into the enemy (forward illusion) to disrupt a flanker's alpha strike, shatter (rear illusion), link (back to rear spot), shatter (forward illusion). I can't tell you how many times that sequence of events has saved my life and picked up a kill or two in the process. This assumes you have the card to spawn an illusion if you link to a dead illusion's spot.

If you are on the capture point, and need to get away for a moment (Viktor ult, Skye ult, Androxus ult, many ults), DLink will allow you to alleviate pressure as they find a new target to focus, while allowing you to port back when the threat is neutralized or in the ensuing chaos.

One of my loadouts is called, "Sneaky Bitch", specifically because I have juked way more people than I can count with clever shifting and shatters. The DLink and Shatter cooldown reduction cards may not seem like a lot in a loadout with no focus, however they are invaluable when the loadout is designed to protect her from almost guaranteed focus fire (depends on the enemy team), while punishing people for trying to catch her.

This is probably my favorite ability, honestly. I mained a Mesmer in GW2, and DLink cements the whole "Mistress of Illusions" thing that is Ying. This ability is not meant to be a short blink. Not at all. It's meant to save your life, and you're meant to be clever (a requirement for any archetype based on illusions and deception). The amount of Makoas I've seen trying to anchor one of these illusions is enough for me to fall in love.

I would alter your suggestion to reduce the time inbetween swaps. Sometimes she seriously needs to gtfo, and presses swap one too many times. I managed to get Ying all the way to L11 without knowing that you could hold down the button to choose which illusion you swap to. This tells me that there's even more to learn with the nuances of this ability.

Shatter

The pathing can be tricky, but it's not exactly horrendous. Again, be mindful of where your illusions are. The only thing I've seen to really fuck with pathing is putting an illusion directly behind the payload (only a few environment elements ever pose an issue, and that's usually because I shouldn't have put the illusion there). Seeing as how they can't jump, it makes sense that they take the long way around towards any target.

That said, I would prefer if their choice of target was tuned to favor the enemy with the lowest hp within their attack radius, before just chasing off to the higher hp enemy two steps away from the person fleeing and almost dead. Thankfully the range of the explosion is not bad. Further, even though they can't jump, the spherical radius can still pick people off a ledge.

Did I get them all?

I'll see if the prisms of her ult can be removed by the enemy. I've honestly just used it in a set and forget, "I need this ability to be really clutch right now" type of way, and let downs have been rare. Usually if let down, I could have chosen a better time to use it... probably a couple seconds earlier.

I strongly suggest you stop using the same loadout every time. Ying can accomodate a couple different playstyles (aggressive shatter build, passive illusion build, sneaky dlink build), and depending on the enemy comp, each has a purpose. Same goes for using the same burn cards every time. I've managed to win many a match buy getting Cauterize as my first item, and convincing one or two others to do the same. I've also managed to shut down many a Skye by picking Illumination as my first item. Those are usually the only two adjustments I'll make, however I find move speed can be useful (when combined with Haven), and Life Rip is fun, when you want to play her like a flanker. Most matches don't see the first ability upgraded to R3 anyway, so 10% cdr for most of the match, and 20% towards the very end, is hardly a game changer with the other cards on offer. When I first started I would buy Chronos all the time... now I find I don't need it and generally build to counter the enemy.


edit: I see the prisms now. They're pink embers in the world. You can teleport to them too, which is nice. I still contend that the ability is fine, since it's best used during a clutch moment where people are less likely to move out of range until the threat is passed or the point is capped.

edit2: In the training room, stand near Fernando and spawn illusions on either side of the gap to the Cassies, below the ramp. Shatter them. This is the worst example of pathing I can provide, as I don't usually see them derp so hard in matches.

Caelestis
10-06-2016, 10:58 AM
I mained a Mesmer in GW2, and DLink cements the whole "Mistress of Illusions" thing that is Ying

same , and pu mesmer untill rework of traits was mvp . i think cd to dlink is too long compared to other champs .

DefB
10-06-2016, 11:44 AM
i think cd to dlink is too long compared to other champs .

I think so too... but combined with up to 4s reduction, anything less would make her outshine the other supps. As of now, I can still think of scenarios where Pip or Grover would be a better choice... even if I will still pick Ying whenever I'm going to heal.

Ying to me is the equivalent of Hel in Smite... changes need to be done exceedingly carefully, or else Ying will end up where Hel is now. The curse of healing and damaging in equal amounts, while being more mobile than anyone.

Caelestis
10-06-2016, 12:12 PM
I think so too... but combined with up to 4s reduction, anything less would make her outshine the other supps.

her escape is fully dependant on illusions . and dont work without them ,so you basically have 14 + 5 (without animations so add about 1-2 sec) for escape someplace you need , and not to frontline where you was and from where you escaping

DefB
10-06-2016, 01:49 PM
her escape is fully dependant on illusions . and dont work without them ,so you basically have 14 + 5 (without animations so add about 1-2 sec) for escape someplace you need , and not to frontline where you was and from where you escaping

I try not to keep Ying anywhere she can be sniped or snuck up on, I tuck into corners a lot, and play like a flanker who is constantly on the move. My character isn't actually in combat all that much, but between heals, shatters, and firing from flank, I'm in combat all the time. I find that with a little foresight on where people are, might be, I can turn a corner... wait... shatter, and still get a kill if many people clump together, or if their backline is trying to run.

She's an illusionist. The only time I want her to be seen is as an illusion.

All of that is to say, the only build where I run cdr on DLink is Sneaky Bitch. My others don't have it, as I'm either sneaking around, or keeping an eye out for Skye/Viktor/Evie/Buck/etc and doing my best to avoid or sneak up on Cassie/Kinessa/Healer. While doing all of this, the cooldown isn't too noticeable if you purposefully avoid getting caught.

DefB
10-06-2016, 02:56 PM
I have a suggestion.

The card that increases the deployment range of her illusions needs to be increased. It's barely noticeable in the hall of Skyes on the shooting range and essentially not worth having in an Illusion focused build. I want to like it, and use it, but it's worthless.

YingLee
10-07-2016, 08:55 AM
She fires the fastest, but her LMB certainly isn't the best. Pip's can AoE Cauterize, Grover can two shot someone. I haven't unlocked Ghrok. Without the bonus damage, she deals the same as Pip (less actually, since you missed at least 1/5) without the benefit of aoe.

The thing you have to keep in mind is Ying's attacks are hitscan, pip's are lobbed grenades and grover's axes are incredibly slow to the point where avoiding every single one of his axes is like a minigame in itself which is more than possible.
If she wasn't a support I'd be fine with it, might even want a small buff for it. It's a bit lower than soldier 76's damage output which IMO is the best non support comparison for attacking.

Illusions


400/sec x2 seems like a lot on its own. Unless loadout points are spent to increase hp, many characters can kill them in two or three shots. They are also incredibly vulnerable to aoe. Combine this with the fact that they are also her main source of damage in a melee, meaning they are not healing all the time. Her total healing is very dependent on the player. An aggressive player will heal little, a passive player will damage little.

I very rarely shatter in a close quarters 1v1, I find the 800 healing per second to much outweigh the ~1000 damage from the shatter if they don't get stuck on anything (which they usually do). If they target the illusions, they'll spend time not shooting me and then I can still shatter after they started focusing illusions. Keeping them alive also lets you hop short distances around them to confuse them with Dimensional Link.
I also don't see a point in not taking the increased illusion health card, as in my eyes it's one of the the best cards Ying has in her arsenal along with the added shattered illusion speed and the added illusion duration.
In general, the only times I'm going to shatter is if everyone is full health, if I have 2 down and the third is off cooldown or I need them to secure a kill that ran away. This means no matter if I play defensive or offensive, I'll usually have 2 illusions healing at all times.

I wish there was some sort of damage breakdown so we could see what percentage of our damage is actually being done by shattered illusions, because I feel like it wouldn't pass 25%, let alone 50%


As for targetting, the odds of one player being targetted by both illusions, when multiple players are around at sub 75%hp, is low. This is due to the randomized targetting, and the delay between illusions one and two. If you are damaging and healing equally, then you usually have one illusion stationary, while the other is chasing people down and you maintain this rotation for most of the game. I have no problem with her targetting. I've saved many a life and never thought, "Why wasn't my illusion healing the person with the lowest hp?" they almost always do.

First you say the targetting is randomized then you say it always heals the target with the lowest hp?
I don't really keep one stationary since I want both to be available for shatters when I need them. As such I usually bunker up close to the enemy's front line or at a flank with both my illusions.

Ultimate


I was under the impression that the heal was a buff (a prism) placed upon the player, not 5 separate illusions that follow everyone around. I haven't seen an abundance of illusions when I pop her ult. The prism is the equivalent of a personal illusion for everyone. Not bad, all things considered.

As far as I understand it, it spawns a prism at the current location where everyone is. The main reason I think this is because when I dimensional link after using the ult, I'll end up somewhere near spawn where someone was riding their horse to the battle. If it's a buff that stays with the characters I think it's fine. If not, I think it should get a buff


Dimensional Link


I'm sorry, but you are way off on this one. DLink is one of Ying's best abilities. If you maintain awareness of illusions, you almost always have a decent idea of where you'll be. It's not like they move unless you Shatter them, and if you keep DLink in mind as you approach each engagement, you'll keep your furthest illusion in a safe place.

As I said before, I tend to keep both my illusions close, I don't find the "possible" escape value greater than the extra shatter/healer value. Thus I tend to keep both of them close to me. In the few cases I do have a far away illusion to teleport to, it tends to time out before I find the need to teleport out. Causing me to simply appear a meter next to me where my healing illusion was.



This is probably my favorite ability, honestly. I mained a Mesmer in GW2, and DLink cements the whole "Mistress of Illusions" thing that is Ying. This ability is not meant to be a short blink. Not at all. It's meant to save your life, and you're meant to be clever (a requirement for any archetype based on illusions and deception).

I find this confusing, you mention liking the ability so much, but you seem to not want to have it be able to be used in more than two situations. Especially when you talk about being "meant to be clever" I feel like the possibilities should be more open so you can do with dimensional link what you want to do with it, whether that's to get up to high places (which in my eyes is the main reason for the increased illusion placement card) or to get forward faster.
If you don't start salivating at the thought of dodging a Makoa's hook by placing a new illusion and instantly Dimensional Link'ing to it after he already threw it out. There might just be something wrong with you.
It would also offer up other tactics, such as throwing an illusion over a wall to escape instantly while making it very hard for them to chase you without Pip, Drogoz or Buck. I really feel like you underestimate how much this change could mean to add a lot of possibilities to Ying's mobility and Dimensional Link usage.



I would alter your suggestion to reduce the time inbetween swaps. Sometimes she seriously needs to gtfo, and presses swap one too many times.

I really don't want that to happen, when I use dimensional link and I notice I'm closer to the enemies I'm trying to escape rather than further, I don't want to have to wait until some arbitrary timer runs out so I can DL away from them again.



I managed to get Ying all the way to L11 without knowing that you could hold down the button to choose which illusion you swap to. This tells me that there's even more to learn with the nuances of this ability.

That's odd, I thought I tried this because I felt like that might be a thing but after trying it I found out it didn't work. Maybe I just tried out if it would highlight the illusion you would teleport to instead of actually changing the one you teleport to

Shatter


The pathing can be tricky, but it's not exactly horrendous. Again, be mindful of where your illusions are. The only thing I've seen to really fuck with pathing is putting an illusion directly behind the payload (only a few environment elements ever pose an issue, and that's usually because I shouldn't have put the illusion there). Seeing as how they can't jump, it makes sense that they take the long way around towards any target.

A good example of shatters getting stuck on allies would be a staircase, take the staircase in the icy payload map, around 60% through the level to get to the raised area. Often a teammate will be standing at/on the staircase because it's a good spot to weave around the corner & shoot, then hide again. As such usually your illusions won't be able to get up to that area at all.
Another good example of the pathfinding is in the shooting range, I think the room with Skye & Fernando. When you place an illusion on the right side of the room, it'll run to the left side before running towards the enemies.
Actually I'll record it again real quick
Oh nevermind, you addressed it below



Did I get them all?

Think so



I'll see if the prisms of her ult can be removed by the enemy. I've honestly just used it in a set and forget, "I need this ability to be really clutch right now" type of way, and let downs have been rare. Usually if let down, I could have chosen a better time to use it... probably a couple seconds earlier.

They can't be killed, which is weird because they have a healthbar regardless. another problem I have with the ultimate is that it's bad for clutch moments since a) it has a super long animation in which you can't attack, shatter or dimensional link and b) it doesn't do much upon activation. It basically will just heal 200 hp to all players over the next 0.5s, if it was really clutch they'll either already be dead or it won't have mattered.



I strongly suggest you stop using the same loadout every time. Ying can accomodate a couple different playstyles (aggressive shatter build, passive illusion build, sneaky dlink build), and depending on the enemy comp, each has a purpose.
I'm too busy gathering the gold to afford the skin after the voice pack to buy a secondary deck. I can't imagine any card I'd change either, except for very maybe dropping the reload for Harmony, Mesmerism or Rewind, but I feel like it's not like they'd be better in all or even certain scenarios, it'd just be a slightly different way of playing.



Same goes for using the same burn cards every time. I've managed to win many a match buy getting Cauterize as my first item, and convincing one or two others to do the same.

I don't like getting cauterize on a lot of champions since I don't feel like they'll apply it to enough enemies to be worth it. It's obviously a good pick on things like Pip, Drogoz, BK & Makoa since they have aoe basic attacks. But I feel like it's bad on people who focus a single target or don't fire often like Kinessa, Skye & Ying. Usually a lot of people will buy cauterize on your team, even if it's not good on them, and I don't think the effects stack.
If cauterize applied on all damage, it might be a good pickup, but right now either the tooltip is wrong or it's only applied on basic attacks.



I've also managed to shut down many a Skye by picking Illumination as my first item.

Illumination is just a dead card in my opinion, I wouldn't pick it up if it was 0g for the tier one since it takes up the slot of blast shields/bastion which are really good on healers. Skye can't even kill Ying regardless unless she has a team nearby anyway.



Those are usually the only two adjustments I'll make, however I find move speed can be useful (when combined with Haven), and Life Rip is fun, when you want to play her like a flanker.

I find Kill to heal much better on Ying, since often you'll just tag heroes and then let your shatters finish them off or let your teammates clean up. As for nimble, I feel like the amount it adds isn't good enough compared to the amount Chronos gives. Add to that the fact that I don't feel like she needs the movement speed that much and Chronos is an easy pick up in my eyes.



edit2: In the training room, stand near Fernando and spawn illusions on either side of the gap to the Cassies, below the ramp. Shatter them. This is the worst example of pathing I can provide, as I don't usually see them derp so hard in matches.

Does this not seeing them derp out in matches include them sitting on Kinessa mines, enemy Ying illusions or Barik's turrets or not? Because at the very least that should get fixed

DefB
10-07-2016, 06:44 PM
So, we have different play styles. That much is very clear. Going to keep comments split by ability, for organization sake.

Basic Attack

The fact that her basic attack is hitscan doesn't change much to me. Many other characters are and they do way more damage than her. People talk about Grover's axe like it's Drogoz's RMB attack, gracefully cruising through the air waiting to be dodged at leisure. A little side to side goes a long way, I've danced with enough Grovers to know, but the axe is still a threat not to be ignored (it can two shot you). Further, if you're dancing with Grover, you're open to flank and rear ambushes. He's not some threatless entity.

That said, given hitscan, it's very easy to miss, especially if both you and your enemy are trying to maneuver around each other and deny the other person to chance to lead you with their crosshair. I admit from now that my aim is average or above average at best, not like some Cassies/Andros I've seen that can singe handedly carry games (and only need to hit one shot at a time, as opposed to 5 over .5s to do 700 dmg and having it drop below 600 if you miss even one). A lobbed grenade has its advantages, hitscan has its advantages. Sometimes you'd want 600 to everyone guaranteed, as opposed to 700 to someone maybe.

By Soldier:76, do you mean Viktor? Mr. RMB to zoom, card to negate zoomed recoil, pump you full of bullets with Cauterize/Wrecker/LifeRip Viktor? I don't think this is a fair comparison at all. Vik should out damage Ying every single time. Solder:76 is in an entirely different ecosystem of balance.

Illusions

Keeping 2 up in cqc 1v1 is just smart. That said, I still stand by a: using the card that creates an illusion if you swap to a dead one, b: shattering in cqc when juking with DLink (1125 dmg, almost half Ying's HP, more on ~2k hp Paladins) , and c: letting your illusions do most of the work in damaging them (run around a corner, let them chase you). I saw the comment about not having cards because you're saving for the costume. This is cart before the horse, imo. I unlocked all her cards before I bought her blue skin, weapon is next, and my playstyle isn't limited by what cards I haven't unlocked for what is essentially, my main Paladin.

That said, waiting for everyone to be up on hp before you Shatter is a bad idea, imo. Placing illusions serves so many purposes that waiting for everyone to be full during a battle would see your 1st illusion expire, having done no damage (this should be avoided, shatter and illusion share the same cd for a reason). I do not rate Squadron (illusion hp card) very highly. I find less reasons to use it as time goes on. 400 hp is one extra attack, maybe. For 4 points in a loadout, no way. I much prefer the card that increases their hp by a % when you shatter, as I find it synergizes well with creating an illusion when you DLink to a dead one. This allows you to shatter in between Illusion cooldowns simply by DLinking twice, then dropping a Safe (see below) to resume your healing.

There is only one build where I use the duration extend card, and I don't use that build often (super passive heal build). Conversely, Illusion run speed is in all my builds (looks like the only card we agree on to be almost mandatory).

If you stay at the front as you say, having consistent pressure generated by 500/1125 aoe damage can do a lot to clear a point quickly. This occurs roughly, for me, about every 8-10 secs, right around the time the first illusion is going to expire if she isn't dead yet, which she shouldn't be usually, since she should be your safest placement with line of sight to the objective at the time.

Safe/Cover Me Illusion > 5s (reposition) > Advancing/Flanking Illusion > 2-4s (1st expires at 10s, can reposition here too) > Shatter > Repeat.

I understand keeping 2 up to maximize healing (I only do this out outheal enemy Yings, or if there are 2 tanks to cover), but you don't have to heal if your enemy is dead. When fighting over a point, sending illusions constantly is beyond helpful when tanks are trying to attrition each other (especially once their shield drops, *POP* unavoidable damage). A good pair of explosions tips the hp war in favor of your side 500/1125 dmg at a time (and more if you're attacking with LMB). Damage done by illusions should most definitely be above 25%. When I finish a match, my damage and healing are usually +/- 5-10k of each other. Exceptions being a stronger comp (passive/flanking play, less shatters, more heals), or a weaker comp (aggressive play, shatters every 4/5s, more damage).


First you say the targetting is randomized then you say it always heals the target with the lowest hp? I don't really keep one stationary since I want both to be available for shatters when I need them. As such I usually bunker up close to the enemy's front line or at a flank with both my illusions.

Yes. If you drop her where she's needed, she's going to heal you or someone near her with lower hp. 5s later, you drop another one that does the same. I don't know exactly how their code prioritizes who to heal, but I'm happy with whoever wrote it. They don't move. They're stationary until you shatter them. I find standing near your illusions is the easiest way to reveal your position. I tuck them behind walls/crates to avoid los (further eliminating the need for Squadron in a loadout), or in places where I want people to think it's me (such as a flanker's line of approach). If I have an illusion at the rear, and one of the flanks, while I stand at the opposite side, things are going well (occupying clock positions 3/6/9, all at once). Terrain doesn't always allow, like a tunnel, but it's what I aim for in open space.

Wow, that was long... hopefully fair, talking about her main ability. I'll try to be faster with the others.

Ultimate


As far as I understand it, it spawns a prism at the current location where everyone is. The main reason I think this is because when I dimensional link after using the ult, I'll end up somewhere near spawn where someone was riding their horse to the battle.

That's funny, this has happened to me. However, after learning about holding down DLink to choose, I've been working on becoming more attuned to where I am, and where I'm going. DLink is often used without thought, to gtfo asap... I still do it all the time, but I've also done this when facing the wrong illusion and paid for it. If I was more aware, and turned a little further, I'd have been out of dodge with less stress. If they can't be shot, I don't mind them not moving. The only times I use it are when we need to win overtime, when we're having trouble pushing past a choke, or to counter select enemy ults (mostly a 2/3s after enemy Ying ults).

I would hesitate to buff. Ult + 2 illusions means 7 applications of 400 hp/s. The only one stronger would be Grover, who I haven't used enough to know if 2500/s is overkill or not. I tend to think it is.

DLink

We see this ability in totally different ways. If it was ever changed to a blink I would probably drop her as a main character, as it removes the most nuanced (fun) element of her gameplay.

I'm not sure what you mean by only using it in two situations. The moment she's focused, DLink begins to shine... I find it shines more the better you are at placing illusions and remembering where they are. I've had people give up on killing me, just because I've warped to an illusion sitting just outside their line of sight. Once they do, I'm shooting them from behind while my Illusions chase them. This is my preferred way to deal with anyone who comes looking for me, and why I tend to keep my illusions relatively spread. If you keep them within casting range of the same spot (show up, cast 2 illusions, camp), then DLink is effectively useless in saving your life, unless you're cqc in an enclosed area where you just want to get behind them quickly... which they'll know where you are, since both illusions are beside each other, and unless you've hit shatter, only one is on the move (the real you).

I really can't emphasize enough the benefits of putting your illusions further a part (clock positions 6/3 or 6/9... even 10/2 or 4/8). Shattering regularly and moving constantly makes this easy to me. Standing in one place/area is how I died a lot when I first started playing her, since enemies will punish you in further rounds if they're paying attention to how you play and where you camp (flankers specifically).


I really don't want that to happen, when I use dimensional link and I notice I'm closer to the enemies I'm trying to escape rather than further, I don't want to have to wait until some arbitrary timer runs out so I can DL away from them again.

Exactly what I'm saying. I would rather the time in between swapping illusions with DLink to be shorter. I'm not sure if it's a cast time issue, an animation issue, or both. I'd love to speed it up by at least 20%, just for that extra split second when I realize I've tapped one too many times. Unfortunately it happens. Could be L2P on my part, which is why I've been trying to be cognizant of how I use DLink, as opposed to just expecting that it will get me out of jail for free.

I'd rather have the option to choose between illusions, than just hitting the button, moving a set distance once, and expecting that to save my life somehow. Rooftops? I don't know why you'd want her up there... illusion range is so small and the card to boost range doesn't help. It's like silhouetting yourself in war, you're asking to be picked off. I see Pips/Evies/BKs/Viktors do this all the time. It's alright if you're relocating, but to just stand there like a turret... bad call. The only exception I can see is Kinessa, but there's a huge orange line telling you where she is, so.

Shatter


A good example of shatters getting stuck on allies would be a staircase, take the staircase in the icy payload map, around 60% through the level to get to the raised area. Often a teammate will be standing at/on the staircase because it's a good spot to weave around the corner & shoot, then hide again. As such usually your illusions won't be able to get up to that area at all.

I've played a lot of online games over time. When it comes to AI pathing, there are just certain things I don't do. Putting an illusion on stairs is one of them. Stairs fuck AI pathing in every MMO I've ever seen going back to vanilla WoW Hunter pets. Hell, even EQ's Necro/Magician pets had pathing issues, severe pathing issues since the tech was nowhere near as good 17 years ago. When I talk about being mindful of illusion placement, this is a part of what I mean. For that specific tunnel, your Safe illusion goes above the stairs, your Advance illusion goes below the stairs, or low enough so as to make no difference going straight. I apply this same logic to ramps, and the ramp in the training room is probably why the illusions derp so hard there.

Miscellaneous


They can't be killed, which is weird because they have a healthbar regardless. another problem I have with the ultimate is that it's bad for clutch moments since a) it has a super long animation in which you can't attack, shatter or dimensional link and b) it doesn't do much upon activation. It basically will just heal 200 hp to all players over the next 0.5s, if it was really clutch they'll either already be dead or it won't have mattered.

I agree with the cast time, I disagree with the effectiveness. Everyone gets a 400/sec healbot, and you can add 2 more to provide effectively 1200/sec on a focused Fernando/Makoa/Ruckus. It's probably closer to 800/sec in application, but that's 800/sec on any two people at any given time, as opposed to 800/sec on one person at the best of times with 2 illusions. I dunno, I would still take it over Grover's ult simply because I don't have to dance around people to heal them (a team with 3+ cauterizes above rank 2 can kill him while he's ulting).



I'm too busy gathering the gold to afford the skin after the voice pack to buy a secondary deck. I can't imagine any card I'd change either, except for very maybe dropping the reload for Harmony, Mesmerism or Rewind, but I feel like it's not like they'd be better in all or even certain scenarios, it'd just be a slightly different way of playing.

This is probably why we disagree a lot. I have all her cards and I've tried different things. I have different loadouts and I use them at different times. I wouldn't dream of dropping 18000+ on cosmetics when unlocking all her cards is a much cheaper, and much more effective, long term investment. Cosmetics are for fun, do that after. The cards are there to promote different styles of play, imo. It's why I have a build centered around each of her main abilities (funny, cause my Illusion build still has 2 or 3 Shatter cards, and 0 or 1 Illusion cards).


Regarding Cauterize: What you say is just heresy to me. I can't even... when I'm 1v1 vs Ying or anyone else who can heal, keeping 2 illusions and specifically having Caut is probably what saves my life. Especially vs a Skye who can drop my healing with RMB, while also probably running with Life Rip. These days I buy it first more than anything, except maybe Haven. Also, by being on the move and flanking the enemy, having Cauterize with illusions that can be spawned in their heal camp (while still having los to your allies), makes her really good at sneaking up on and eliminating enemy Yings.

Chronos' 10% cdr is .5 secs off Illusion and Shatter. During the 1st round (I play Seige, since it already has the Payload element) that's gonna do a whole lot of not much. 2nd round? 1s. That's 900g for 1s off Illusion/Shatter, and 2.8s off DLink. With that 900, I'd buy Cauterize, Haven and maybe Nimble (I'd most likely save the last 300 for R2 of Caut/Haven). Nimble is specifically to avoid the crosshair, although it's not significant which is why I don't get it all the time (usually if they have 2 flankers who like to visit me). That said, Nimble fits my style of mostly on the move.

As for Illuminate, I've had games where I picked it only to have no pressure from Skye. Wasted 200g, and opportunity cost for having Haven instead. I can agree that it's not always a great pick. I just seriously hate, "Time's ticking!" so fuck that girl. I find when Skyes make a habit of coming for me, then it's perfect to mess up their game while Illusions healing and shattering means your game isn't affected all that much.

Lastly, Kill to Heal, I don't rate too high. When I'm in a life/death situation, Life Rip is going to save me (it's miniscule, I know, but if it means I survive with 200hp, then I survive with 200hp), Kill to Heal kicks in only if I've already saved myself, and chances are an Illusion is already healing me or I've just spawned one while exhaling a deep breath.


WHEW! That was fucking long, but for my favorite Paladin, I very much enjoy in depth discussions like this. Very much like Roguespam from vanilla WoW days. I also appreciate your very different perspective. However, if I could recommend anything at all, it would be to buy all her loadout cards, make different loadouts, and try them. In the time you're trying different things, you'll recoup the card cost. You can deal with her being green a little longer, I promise!

YingLee
10-09-2016, 08:09 AM
Basic Attack



By Soldier:76, do you mean Viktor? Mr. RMB to zoom, card to negate zoomed recoil, pump you full of bullets with Cauterize/Wrecker/LifeRip Viktor? I don't think this is a fair comparison at all. Vik should out damage Ying every single time. Solder:76 is in an entirely different ecosystem of balance.

Yes, I agree he should do for more damage for obvious reasons, as he's a damage character and that's all he has. I feel like the difference between a character with so much utility as Ying and Soldier 76 should be bigger when it comes to damage.
IIRC without any bonus cards & not taking reloads into account (where I think Ying will have an advantage over him due to how long she can go without reloading and how fast her reload is). He basically needs the 4 bullet passive bonus to actually have a significant damage increase over Ying.

Illusions


Keeping 2 up in cqc 1v1 is just smart. That said, I still stand by a: using the card that creates an illusion if you swap to a dead one, b: shattering in cqc when juking with DLink (1125 dmg, almost half Ying's HP, more on ~2k hp Paladins) , and c: letting your illusions do most of the work in damaging them (run around a corner, let them chase you).

If your illusions are all dead and you use dimensional link, can you dimensional link back to where you started? If not, that combo is either too risky or too situational to be worth the card.



That said, waiting for everyone to be up on hp before you Shatter is a bad idea, imo. Placing illusions serves so many purposes that waiting for everyone to be full during a battle would see your 1st illusion expire, having done no damage

Shattering lengthens the Illusion's duration, so once you get a feel for it you can easily shatter when it's about to run out, usually at that point you'll have a third illusion ready to be placed already again, like I mentioned.
I really dislike placing an illusion and instantly shattering unless it's absolutely necessary, because in the coming five seconds you'll be an incredibly weak target.



400 hp is one extra attack, maybe. For 4 points in a loadout, no way.

I think you grossly understate 400hp.
That's 3-4 Soldier 76 bullets, probably 2 barik shots, like a full second from fernando. I'm not sure how much their health is without it, but I'm fairly sure it's a substantial increase.



I much prefer the card that increases their hp by a % when you shatter, as I find it synergizes well with creating an illusion when you DLink to a dead one. This allows you to shatter in between Illusion cooldowns simply by DLinking twice, then dropping a Safe (see below) to resume your healing.

Rarely are my shattered illusions killed, usually people try to run. The shatter duration is simply too short for most characters to kill them, the characters that can won't be stopped by the shatter heal either, which is also wasted on near full health illusions.



If you stay at the front as you say, having consistent pressure generated by 500/1125 aoe damage can do a lot to clear a point quickly. [ -snip- ] Sending illusions constantly is beyond helpful when tanks are trying to attrition each other (especially once their shield drops, *POP* unavoidable damage). A good pair of explosions tips the hp war in favor of your side 500/1125 dmg at a time (and more if you're attacking with LMB). Damage done by illusions should most definitely be above 25%.

Usually all that ends up happening is 500 damage on the enemy tank, which is just a scratch. Again due to them getting stuck on everything. The only times I consistently get 1125s is when enemies completely disregard my illusions and go stand between me and my two illusions I left up from when I was pushed up more before.

Ultimate



I would hesitate to buff. Ult + 2 illusions means 7 applications of 400 hp/s. The only one stronger would be Grover, who I haven't used enough to know if 2500/s is overkill or not. I tend to think it is.

I wouldn't see it as a standalone buff but rather a package of adjustments to her as a whole. So this would come with a nerf to the normal illusion heals. It also doesn't just need to be an increased healing rate. It could be other changes, such as a faster cast time, an application of a 250 shield instantly when you use your ult, the prisms following allies. I just feel as it stands it's like you have 5 significantly worse illusions that you don't get to choose where to place.
Hell I'd be happy even if they just made it 250-300 hp/s.

DLink


We see this ability in totally different ways. If it was ever changed to a blink I would probably drop her as a main character, as it removes the most nuanced (fun) element of her gameplay.

I think you misunderstood me, I didn't want it to turn into a blink, I wanted it to have the possibility of being a blink. You would still keep all the current functionality, it would just be easier to dimensional link to the illusion you just placed.



I'm not sure what you mean by only using it in two situations.

Right now I see Dimensional link as having two main situations where it's useful.
A) I want to run away, teleport me somewhere safe away from here
B) I want to chase the enemy, so I shatter then teleport to the illusions that are closer and already chasing them.
There's a third occasionally useful situation where you use it to hop onto low height platforms which you can't normally reach. For example the raised platform at the attackers' spawn in Frostbite Caverns Payload map.

I really can't emphasize enough the benefits of putting your illusions further a part (clock positions 6/3 or 6/9... even 10/2 or 4/8). Shattering regularly and moving constantly makes this easy to me. Standing in one place/area is how I died a lot when I first started playing her, since enemies will punish you in further rounds if they're paying attention to how you play and where you camp (flankers specifically).




Exactly what I'm saying. I would rather the time in between swapping illusions with DLink to be shorter. I'm not sure if it's a cast time issue, an animation issue, or both. I'd love to speed it up by at least 20%, just for that extra split second when I realize I've tapped one too many times.
Oh I thought you said you wanted the time to be longer, so you wouldn't accidentally click it once to often. Now that I think about it, I'm reluctant to change the time between activations of dimensional link, because I feel like it could be extremely annoying to play against if they also have the heal on shatter, dimensional link duration increase and the spawn a illusion if there's no alive illusion if they just spam press dimensional link & shatter and constantly teleport around.



I'd rather have the option to choose between illusions, than just hitting the button, moving a set distance once, and expecting that to save my life somehow.

See above, you misunderstood what change I wanted.



Rooftops? I don't know why you'd want her up there... illusion range is so small and the card to boost range doesn't help. It's like silhouetting yourself in war, you're asking to be picked off. I see Pips/Evies/BKs/Viktors do this all the time. It's alright if you're relocating, but to just stand there like a turret... bad call. The only exception I can see is Kinessa, but there's a huge orange line telling you where she is, so.

Honestly I love being on roofs or raised areas as ying, you can easily duel a sniping kinessa or evie in close quarters if you're on the offense. Alternatively, Illusory mirror has a surprisingly long range, you could shoot people from above, while taking safe cover when needed and dropping illusions from above to either shatter them in mid air for a near instant detonation upon landing or just drop illusions off the roof to heal your allies while you're safe.
People rarely think to search on the rooftops for a ying as she doesn't have that much free mobility and relies heavily on having an illusion somewhere first.

Shatter



I've played a lot of online games over time. When it comes to AI pathing, there are just certain things I don't do. Putting an illusion on stairs is one of them. Stairs fuck AI pathing in every MMO I've ever seen going back to vanilla WoW Hunter pets.

Usually the hitboxes of staircases are just ramps, so it shouldn't be that. Also the problem isn't the actual stairs themselves, but more that it's a bottleneck. If they could go through allies, they wouldn't get stuck on them when they have to move through bottlenecks
You'll have the exact same problem if your shattered illusion is behind a fernando or something in a tunnel and you shatter her. She'll just get stuck on fernando and won't be able to advance.

Miscellaneous




I agree with the cast time, I disagree with the effectiveness. Everyone gets a 400/sec healbot

Whoa hold up, you think the ultimate heals for 400/s?
It's 200/s, distributed during the first 0.5s of the second. It's pretty weirdly worded but it clearly states it's 200 hp/s, not 400. Similar to how her attack isn't 700 per 0.5s, it's 700 per 0.7s over the first 0.5s of the attack.
"Spawn a prism on every ally that heals 200 Health over 0.5s every 1s."


This is probably why we disagree a lot. I have all her cards and I've tried different things. I have different loadouts and I use them at different times. I wouldn't dream of dropping 18000+ on cosmetics when unlocking all her cards is a much cheaper, and much more effective, long term investment. Cosmetics are for fun, do that after. The cards are there to promote different styles of play, imo. It's why I have a build centered around each of her main abilities (funny, cause my Illusion build still has 2 or 3 Shatter cards, and 0 or 1 Illusion cards).

Ying is the only character where I went back and bought a different card. When I started I had the Shatter CD reduction card, because I assumed the cooldown would be rather high, like 15 seconds or so. After my first few games I obviously noticed it's completely useless unless you use it in that dimensional link shatter spam you mentioned.
I just don't see the point in getting cards



Regarding Cauterize: What you say is just heresy to me. I can't even... when I'm 1v1 vs Ying or anyone else who can heal, keeping 2 illusions and specifically having Caut is probably what saves my life.

Well you can't look at it in an isolated instance, you might say the same "What? you don't get wrecker? when I'm 1v1'ing vs Fernando or anyone else with a shield, specifically having wrecker is probably what saves my life.
Not to mention I've rarely come across another ying that's remotely as good as me, so even if I'm in a 1v1 I win 4/5 without cauterize.


having Cauterize with illusions that can be spawned in their heal camp
not sure what you mean by this since shatter shouldn't apply cauterize, since it states it's just basic attacks.



Chronos' 10% cdr is .5 secs off Illusion and Shatter. During the 1st round (I play Seige, since it already has the Payload element) that's gonna do a whole lot of not much. 2nd round? 1s. That's 900g for 1s off Illusion/Shatter, and 2.8s off DLink. With that 900, I'd buy Cauterize, Haven and maybe Nimble (I'd most likely save the last 300 for R2 of Caut/Haven). Nimble is specifically to avoid the crosshair, although it's not significant which is why I don't get it all the time (usually if they have 2 flankers who like to visit me). That said, Nimble fits my style of mostly on the move.

Fairly sure Chronos is a 400 card, not a 300. Could be wrong tho. I play Ying as a flanker, so I'm not really too bothered about enemy flankers coming to visit me as I'll usually take them on easily. The only character I have trouble with is surprisingly Bug King. If he lands two sticky bomb and the dice roll says both of them will actually deal damage for once, you're dead and no heals in the world will be able to save you.



As for Illuminate, I've had games where I picked it only to have no pressure from Skye. Wasted 200g, and opportunity cost for having Haven instead. I can agree that it's not always a great pick. I just seriously hate, "Time's ticking!" so fuck that girl. I find when Skyes make a habit of coming for me, then it's perfect to mess up their game while Illusions healing and shattering means your game isn't affected all that much.
The few games I tried out Illuminate I didn't feel a difference at all, by the time I realized she was there, I already had 17 darts stuck in my butt. I might get it if detection was in an area around you rather than just in your line of sight and if it had an audio cue to warn you a stealthed enemy was spotted around you.



you'll recoup the card cost. You can deal with her being green a little longer, I promise!
I'm already suffering enough to not pay 5€ to buy the Snapdragon

DocteurStup
10-09-2016, 08:35 AM
The beam range of illusions is in my opinion insanely too big. You can put one out in the middle of a map, lets say like in Frozen Guard or Fish Market that provide large open areas, and place correctly your illusions can easily heal your frontline as well as your backline, providing line of sight of course. Thats what makes Ying by far the best healer in the game, because she can heal her entire team in a pinch by placing smartly an illusions that has good lines of sight.

To bounce on what YingLee just said above, i do like to use Illuminate on her to counter Skye and keep her off the objective, and sometimes in some situations chase her and finish her off because of Ying great mobility. Her burst damage can be really lethal on Skye. And sidenote, i found that if you use DLink right at the moment of the Ticking Bomb explosion, you can dodge the damage altogether, this requires a very good timing though, but is extremely effective if you have nowhere to cover yourself from the blast

DefB
10-12-2016, 12:22 AM
The beam range of illusions is in my opinion insanely too big. You can put one out in the middle of a map, lets say like in Frozen Guard or Fish Market that provide large open areas, and place correctly your illusions can easily heal your frontline as well as your backline, providing line of sight of course. Thats what makes Ying by far the best healer in the game, because she can heal her entire team in a pinch by placing smartly an illusions that has good lines of sight.

To bounce on what YingLee just said above, i do like to use Illuminate on her to counter Skye and keep her off the objective, and sometimes in some situations chase her and finish her off because of Ying great mobility. Her burst damage can be really lethal on Skye. And sidenote, i found that if you use DLink right at the moment of the Ticking Bomb explosion, you can dodge the damage altogether, this requires a very good timing though, but is extremely effective if you have nowhere to cover yourself from the blast

I will respond to YingLee after I've been able to play and consider, but I just wanted to confirm all of these things. People are beginning to catch on, I've seen it posted elsewhere: Ying is secretly the most OP character in the game.

YingLee
10-13-2016, 05:42 AM
Ying is secretly the most OP character in the game.

shut up shut up shut up

Zephyrnaut
10-13-2016, 06:18 AM
Ying is ok in my opinion,she doesn't need changes

DefB
10-16-2016, 02:02 PM
shut up shut up shut up

I lol'd. Ying is to Paladins what Hel is to Smite. They caught on to Hel, so I don't expect Ying to be amazing forever. Hel's almost unplayable now (nerfs and item changes), but Ying would have to be nerfed pretty hard for her to be that way since no item significantly influences her gameplay one way or the other.


If your illusions are all dead and you use dimensional link, can you dimensional link back to where you started? If not, that combo is either too risky or too situational to be worth the card.

You can! If the illusion is dead, you'll see a little flower instead. Also works if you don't have the card, but having the card is nice because you can spawn to a flower and shatter the illusion created for you to chase the person chasing you. If you're in sight of it, it will also start healing you without using your Illusion cd.

Main Loadout: Illusion Runspeed 4, Illusion HP 3, %HP on Shatter 2, DLink Illusion HP% 2, and DLink Cooldown 1.


I really dislike placing an illusion and instantly shattering unless it's absolutely necessary, because in the coming five seconds you'll be an incredibly weak target.

It's for this reason I tend to stagger my illusions and shatter around 8s after the first. I experimented with the Illusion Duration card, and it's definitely nice sometimes. I just end up missing one of my main build's cards. Now that I think about it, I could probably replace my last card with an extra 3s, then I could shatter around 10s when Illusion is off cd.


People rarely think to search on the rooftops for a ying as she doesn't have that much free mobility and relies heavily on having an illusion somewhere first.

I took this into consideration and spent some time exploring inside/around buildings when possible. I'm still wary of rooftops, but there are some very nice spots that Ying can hide with full view to the point, or a long line of sight up a tunnel. I feel like a mouse when I play her sometimes, scurrying around to avoid enemy fire just so I can maybe catch someone unaware.


I think you grossly understate 400hp.
That's 3-4 Soldier 76 bullets, probably 2 barik shots, like a full second from fernando. I'm not sure how much their health is without it, but I'm fairly sure it's a substantial increase. Rarely are my shattered illusions killed, usually people try to run. The shatter duration is simply too short for most characters to kill them, the characters that can won't be stopped by the shatter heal either, which is also wasted on near full health illusions.

So, I put Squadron into Illusionwhore and I must admit the build is better for it. After writing it off early and playing more games without than with, I can see its usefulness when that extra bar of hp allowed an illusion to close the distance and explode. With +300/400 hp, the illusion's hp bar goes from 4 to 5, so I'm guessing illusions have a base hp of ~1300. Put that way, Squadron isn't insignificant at an extra ~28% hp.


If they could go through allies, they wouldn't get stuck on them when they have to move through bottlenecks

This is amazing. HiRez, if you're paying attention, plz plz plz.


Whoa hold up, you think the ultimate heals for 400/s?
It's 200/s, distributed during the first 0.5s of the second. It's pretty weirdly worded but it clearly states it's 200 hp/s, not 400. Similar to how her attack isn't 700 per 0.5s, it's 700 per 0.7s over the first 0.5s of the attack.
"Spawn a prism on every ally that heals 200 Health over 0.5s every 1s."

WTB Reading Comprehension. You're right, it is worded weirdly. Do I wish it was 400? Absolutely. Do I find it less effective being 200 over .5 every 1? Not really. I only say this because I've yet to notice people die regularly during its use. We either manage to push/defend, or it runs its course and the last team standing wins.


I just don't see the point in getting cards

Now that we can search loadouts by player, I looked you up. I would get more cards. Some of them are a waste of money, won't hesitate to admit. But, it's worth it just to try it and see. If Squadron wasn't free, I probably wouldn't have bought it until we talked about it and I reconsidered. It also helps that most of the top 10 Yings on NA also run with it. That said, top 10 builds are still really varied. You could find something that complements your style of play, the way an extra 300hp allows me to get a few more 500/1125 damage spikes.


Well you can't look at it in an isolated instance, you might say the same "What? you don't get wrecker? when I'm 1v1'ing vs Fernando or anyone else with a shield, specifically having wrecker is probably what saves my life.
Not to mention I've rarely come across another ying that's remotely as good as me, so even if I'm in a 1v1 I win 4/5 without cauterize. not sure what you mean by this since shatter shouldn't apply cauterize, since it states it's just basic attacks.

I mean Cauterize from LMB, and Illusions placed in a way that even if they retreat they'll still be caught. Meanwhile, the illusions are also far out enough to turn and heal your allies (enemies on 12, allies on 6, you at about 1 or 2) This is what I mean by "in their heal camp". I've found that most healers don't even hear the spawn behind them, not until they get shot a couple times and the spawn is chasing. I've found that this is where early shatters can cost me, since I don't have the safe rear illusion I placed before I started the flank, so after the first shatter there is no illusion covering my allies. If I botch the kill I'm usually under fire and need to retreat to allies anyway, but one or two can still die during my repositioning.


Fairly sure Chronos is a 400 card, not a 300. Could be wrong tho. I play Ying as a flanker, so I'm not really too bothered about enemy flankers coming to visit me as I'll usually take them on easily. The only character I have trouble with is surprisingly Bug King. If he lands two sticky bomb and the dice roll says both of them will actually deal damage for once, you're dead and no heals in the world will be able to save you.

Right! I don't know why I derped on that. Chronos being 400 makes things even worse. 1200g for 20%. I'd rather Cauterize/Wrecker II and Nimble/Haven/BlastShield II. I don't think my examples were an isolated case, specifically with Cauterize, as numerous people can heal, have lifesteal, or be healed. Wrecker on the other hand is clearly more situational, but I'll get it occasionally if I see two tanks to one healer on their side. If I see 2 healers or more, I get Cauterize 99% of the time. Enemy Ying? 100% of the time.

I feel you on BK, lately I've been running into good Bucks, Cassies and oddly enough some Evies. The right Maldamba on a flank totally fucks Ying up also. He seems more flank friendly, with the stun, but there's just no way for him to heal his friends while repositioning himself. I don't count Gourd for this, really.

Skye becoming less of a global threat means I take Illuminate less... which oddly enough means she can sneak up on me and give me the 17 darts treatment more often. It's only happened a couple times... I don't miss Illuminate, but Skye being more reasonable to deal with means it could probably use a little buff/change. I've only seen one hero take it recently, Kinessa. Even then, I wonder why Skye doesn't just sneak up outside of Kinessa's relatively fixed point of view.

We made it! That seemed quick by comparison.

YingLee
10-16-2016, 02:27 PM
You can! If the illusion is dead, you'll see a little flower instead.
I know this, I was wondering if you can dimensional link back to where you were initially after linking to the flower.



So, I put Squadron into Illusionwhore and I must admit the build is better for it. After writing it off early and playing more games without than with, I can see its usefulness when that extra bar of hp allowed an illusion to close the distance and explode. With +300/400 hp, the illusion's hp bar goes from 4 to 5, so I'm guessing illusions have a base hp of ~1300. Put that way, Squadron isn't insignificant at an extra ~28% hp.

From my testing I came to the conclusion a bar is 250 hp, which would mean an illusion most likely has 1000 total hp. So at 200/300 that's around a quarter health increase for a card and 2/3 upgrade points.




WTB Reading Comprehension. You're right, it is worded weirdly. Do I wish it was 400? Absolutely. Do I find it less effective being 200 over .5 every 1? Not really. I only say this because I've yet to notice people die regularly during its use. We either manage to push/defend, or it runs its course and the last team standing wins.

I feel like it's simply not strong enough compared to other ultimates. Atleast not for my playstyle. Usually if we're in trouble it'll have started by me finally dying, which is hard to save with the ultimate due to the delay and how little it actually heals.
Maybe it's better if you play ying as a healslut from the backlines, but I feel she's lackluster if you dedicate solely to healing.




Now that we can search loadouts by player, I looked you up.

*sweating*


I would get more cards. Some of them are a waste of money, won't hesitate to admit. But, it's worth it just to try it and see.

Another problem I have with it is the fact that I wouldn't know which card to remove. All five seem to be so essential I feel like my build would take a huge hit if I removed any of them to the point where I couldn't fairly compare the cards.


It also helps that most of the top 10 Yings on NA also run with it. That said, top 10 builds are still really varied. You could find something that complements your style of play, the way an extra 300hp allows me to get a few more 500/1125 damage spikes.

Top yings is purely based on competitive, no? I also assume that builds for top level competitive players should vary highly from what you should build in pubs. Same goes for other games such as league, where the builds pros build in competitive games often varies highly from what the average player should build.



Right! I don't know why I derped on that. Chronos being 400 makes things even worse. 1200g for 20%. I'd rather Cauterize/Wrecker II and Nimble/Haven/BlastShield II.
Ew wrecker on Ying, when I see a shield I just look for targets outside it or back off until it's gone. Does the bonus damage from 5ticking even apply on shields?


I feel you on BK, lately I've been running into good Bucks, Cassies and oddly enough some Evies. The right Maldamba on a flank totally fucks Ying up also. He seems more flank friendly, with the stun, but there's just no way for him to heal his friends while repositioning himself.

Now that Bug King is fixed and turned into Balanced King I expect the average ying match is going to be a lot more suffering, since there's a hard counter. I can't see a problem fighting mal'damba though, the only case where he'd be able to kill you is if he lands a snake on you when you're not near any illusions, hits you with the gourd then four toxic globs. That's pretty specific and will kill just about any squishy. Reminder that he also has to stay alive during this which is also rather hard.



Skye becoming less of a global threat means I take Illuminate less... which oddly enough means she can sneak up on me and give me the 17 darts treatment more often. It's only happened a couple times... I don't miss Illuminate, but Skye being more reasonable to deal with means it could probably use a little buff/change. I've only seen one hero take it recently, Kinessa. Even then, I wonder why Skye doesn't just sneak up outside of Kinessa's relatively fixed point of view.

Indeed, even with Illuminate, I could never spot skyes as Kinessa because you're most likely zoomed in and thus it's easy for them to simply walk around you and rub their hand along your spine before they brutally violate you. Rather than having a card to counter a specific champion, I'd have a card that's useful in multiple situation and an extra effect against Skye. For example a card that gives vision of targets for X seconds if you hit them and reveals stealth.
This would of course force a change in some character cards.

Kadurkel
10-17-2016, 02:34 PM
Basic attacks deal too much damage
Currently the full burst deals a total of 700 damage without any boosts. This happens every 0.7s or 1000 damage per second if you hit everything.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but i think it's 1.7s for LMB, so it's more like 400 DPS, not 1000.

Rivx
10-17-2016, 02:57 PM
I know this, I was wondering if you can dimensional link back to where you were initially after linking to the flower.

Yes, if you shatter two illusions, you can press F three times, which results in those illusions being revived, and you being back at your original location.

Does anyone know the base health of the illusions? I'm trying to figure out how useful the 100 health card is, as I'm currently hesitating upgrading it over the other options.

VictorDoUrden
10-17-2016, 06:28 PM
I'm a guy who sorta mains Waifu so...

I disagree massively by an insane amount in regards to her attack. It's fucking stupid running into the retard zone suggestion, it really really is. Her attack is by far on the weaker side even if your aimboting. That's is the most stupid thing in your post. You speak as if every single attack is staying on target which is hard to achieve against good people. Direct ideal hits from other healers hurt more. An ideal hit from Groot is the same is Widowmakers charged faceshot. Rachet even if he did less damage can ideally hit more then one person for the same damage and that can be added up as damage applied.

The illusions heal just fine but are not as good in the heat on the moment compared to the others. When for example an illusion heals someone other then your only front-line man EG. when playing Rachet or Shaman/witch doctor to can select exactly who needs healing the most. Downside to being able to specify is you're not moving or attacking in that small window.

"Illusion heal targeting is unreliable and annoying" this is true but it's part of her mechanic

"Shatter illusion pathfinding is absolutely horrendous" True fucking story this. Best to only be used in sorta open spot. Boosting the speed of them is... meh... Shatter range on the boom should be a tad bit bigger to compensate for its poor reliability. The shatter damage... is rather minor really overall anyhow if they don't get shot down.

Dimensional link is garbage. I disagree with Defb. As a healer you're going to (and should be doing) be placing them up to where the fight is since having an illusion in the back is not helpful. Should just be replaced with a teleport. Also the illusion goes away after a time anyhow. It's a bad ability. Even if keeping in mind and using it well you waste an illusion that can be healing during a push instead. Even ideally it's super shit as a good flank will get rid of the illusion or just catch up and kill you. It's to inconsistent and unreliable even ideally, plus overall it's kinda situational. Plus much more often then not you gonna hit it quickly instead of contemplating its usage. It's a lame tacked on ability to force the theme and force artificial synergy with her abilities.
Edit: also to add when you hold the button for DL you hold and have to look to what spot you want otherwise it's going to the last placed one I think it was. Important as well it's like Bolts ability in that with the object it can't be activated. Without a recently placed illusion DL won't do anything when pressed.

DefB
10-18-2016, 02:17 PM
@YingLee


From my testing I came to the conclusion a bar is 250 hp, which would mean an illusion most likely has 1000 total hp. So at 200/300 that's around a quarter health increase for a card and 2/3 upgrade points.

Would make sense. I thought that if 300/400 adds an extra bar, then each bar should be around that. Then again, 4 bars = anything would require a 5th bar even for 100hp. That said, if it's 250 per bar, then 300/400 would require 6 bars. I'll double check, but I'm sure I've only ever seen 5 with the HP card at any rank.


Another problem I have with it is the fact that I wouldn't know which card to remove. All five seem to be so essential I feel like my build would take a huge hit if I removed any of them to the point where I couldn't fairly compare the cards.

That's why it's good to have multiple builds, since in a way they're all so situational. An example, Healho is my passive healer build with illusion length increase, illusion hp, cd redux on illusion death... and two other relatively insignificant level 1 placeholders that I can't remember. For putting out serious heal numbers, the illusion length increase alone is huge since some people just ignore the illusion if they see it. Some teams require that I do this (being a solo healer vs a team with two). Other teams don't (equal healers per side). Often when 1v2, I'll still use Illusionwhore (my fav, the one I described above), and try to convince people to get Cauterize instead.

That said, they've all got uses. It's good to experiment. I guess, for you, after you get your skins. :)


Top yings is purely based on competitive, no? I also assume that builds for top level competitive players should vary highly from what you should build in pubs. Same goes for other games such as league, where the builds pros build in competitive games often varies highly from what the average player should build.

I don't think Pala's comp scene is so advanced yet, especially when you can get into top 15 with a good streak of 10-0. I used it as a guide to see what builds have been helping players get the best out of Ying, contemplating the play style associated with, etc.


Ew wrecker on Ying, when I see a shield I just look for targets outside it or back off until it's gone. Does the bonus damage from 5ticking even apply on shields?

Good question! I will have to check in a bit. I get Wrecker too rarely to notice. That said, fighting is just an HP war between two teams. If I see 2 shield tanks on the other side, and only one person on my team has Wrecker, I'll pick it up to do my part. When Wrecker/Cauterize are needed, it's pointless if 1/5 have it, imo. 2/5 minimum, 3/5 and you're good, 4+ and the enemy shouldn't stand a chance unless they have just as many to equal the playing field. In a two healer per side scenario, the team with the most Cauterize will almost always win in my experience.

@Rivx


Yes, if you shatter two illusions, you can press F three times, which results in those illusions being revived, and you being back at your original location.

This is why 3/4 of my builds have Rewind. Jukes for daaaaaaays.


Does anyone know the base health of the illusions? I'm trying to figure out how useful the 100 health card is, as I'm currently hesitating upgrading it over the other options.

We've been trying to triangulate it. I didn't think much of the HP card at first, but now it's in 3/4 of the builds I use. I find it's nice with Persuit to give the Illusions that much more time to catch up and explode. In the middle of combat, that can be an extra 2 or 3 shots if people miss. Beyond that, it can be nice to absorb some incidental damage. Otherwise, if someone says, "I'm going to kill this illusion." then the only thing the card does is add an extra shot since they're already locked onto a stationary target. No one does less than 400 dmg/s with LMB.


@VictorDoUrden


As a healer you're going to (and should be doing) be placing them up to where the fight is since having an illusion in the back is not helpful.

You should see how far that green beam travels. It's not as far as Maldamba being able to RMB anything within line of sight, but it's still pretty far. Why put them up close to absorb incidental aoe damage, or make convenient for a tank to shoot a couple times to stop healing to your tank? Further, if you need to use DLink, your illusions are right up in the thick of combat. Of course the ability will do nothing for you then.


Should just be replaced with a teleport.

No. I'd stop playing her if it was, honestly. Ying is an Illusionist. Illusions = Deception. Ying is a sneaky girl. If you've ever played GW2, Ying is a Mesmer.


Also the illusion goes away after a time anyhow. It's a bad ability. Even if keeping in mind and using it well you waste an illusion that can be healing during a push instead. Even ideally it's super shit as a good flank will get rid of the illusion or just catch up and kill you.

The illusions go away when DLink is over, yes. It's still a great ability since it's supposed to save your life. Learn to use it and your jukes will impress you, I promise. See above. Jukes. For. Days. I swear.

If a flank stops to shoot the illusion, you should be gone before it's dead. Also, if no illusions are active, DLink will take you to the spot of your last active illusion. If you run with the card Rewind, you can spawn an illusion when you teleport to a dead one, giving the flank something else to shoot at while you take advantage of your new position ("I thought I killed that illusion?") to gtfo.


It's to inconsistent and unreliable even ideally, plus overall it's kinda situational. Plus much more often then not you gonna hit it quickly instead of contemplating its usage. It's a lame tacked on ability to force the theme and force artificial synergy with her abilities.

Emphatically, no. It clearly states, and does, what it's supposed to do. The efficiency of use is up to the player. As I said, if your illusions are humping your tank then DLink is useless to you (where is it going to take you?). The range of their heal is long enough that I usually keep them roughly in front of the backline but not past midline unless I'm actively on the point with said tank. At that point, people are already shooting at me so the illusions are fine (usually placed behind an object).

She's an Illusionist. Dimensional Link fits her theme of trickery ("Whoops! Did I trick you?" - Ying), and her gameplay of deceit (jukes for daaaaaaaays). I mentioned on page 1 of this thread that I've been trying to be more mindful of how I use DLink. Jukes for Days is the payoff. I also try to pan my camera in the direction of the illusion I want to go, just before I use it. The mileage varies on this, but it has worked in putting me where I want to be. Once you see it light up you're gold, shouldn't have to do more than a 180.

I get that when you're trying to gtfo, you "don't have time" to think about all that. I say, if you're mindful of use, and practice being so, then that time becomes shorter than you think.

DLink is good, man. It does have a learning curve, which changing to a teleport would absolutely remove. This would immensely lower Ying's skillcap, since her healing isn't active beyond good illusion placement and the crosshairs are the same for everyone. Jukes for Days is the difference between being out of combat for 20+ seconds, or 5. With some lucky shatters chasing them, you can also get a kill while saving your life. They probably won't chase you too much after you make them feel dumb for chasing illusions.

Rivx
10-18-2016, 04:56 PM
Btw what about the personal HP card? I've been neglecting those on most heroes as it didn't seem significant enough, but looking at statistics it seems that heroes like Grover and Makoa have a level 4 version in most of their decks. I suppose they're more of a frontline though, and don't have much of a synergy between their other cards (although I kinda like the movespeed on heal card on Grover).

YingLee
10-19-2016, 08:23 AM
Correct me if i'm wrong, but i think it's 1.7s for LMB, so it's more like 400 DPS, not 1000.

You misunderstood because it's weirdly described.
Your attacks take about 1s. Of that 1 second, the first 0.7 seconds deal damage, after that it's just some resetting animation.
It's not that you deal damage for 0.7s then there's a full second of not attacking, that'd be really ridiculous



I disagree massively by an insane amount in regards to her attack. It's fucking stupid running into the retard zone suggestion, it really really is. Her attack is by far on the weaker side even if your aimboting. That's is the most stupid thing in your post. You speak as if every single attack is staying on target which is hard to achieve against good people. Direct ideal hits from other healers hurt more. An ideal hit from Groot is the same is Widowmakers charged faceshot. Rachet even if he did less damage can ideally hit more then one person for the same damage and that can be added up as damage applied.

I compared her to Grohk because they're both hitscan short to medium range characters, Ying is so far ahead it's insane. Treeman needs luck or his enemies to be slow in the head to hit all his attacks because they're a projectile and a slow one at that, whereas for ying it's much easier since if you track correctly, you'll hit everything.


Btw what about the personal HP card? I've been neglecting those on most heroes as it didn't seem significant enough, but looking at statistics it seems that heroes like Grover and Makoa have a level 4 version in most of their decks. I suppose they're more of a frontline though, and don't have much of a synergy between their other cards (although I kinda like the movespeed on heal card on Grover).
If they nerf other cards I can see it being good. More max health on squishies is good, especially if you heal as fast as Ying. Since it takes away some of the fear of being bursted. but at the moment I feel like it fate of being a decent card overshadowed by the 5 better cards.
Actually now that I think about it, if Balanced King becomes more mainstream, this could become a guaranteed pick because it'll let Ying survive two stickies from him.

nvm they apparently nerfed BK's bombs so she can survive two regardless.

CunniYingus
10-19-2016, 09:03 AM
Ok here are core changes that absolutely NEED to change on kit:

Illusions heal/offense balance. As the numbers are right now, her kit encourages the boring defense style, where you just drop the 'healing totem' and walk away because Shatter is almost never worth it. And that's a huge pity because I play full assassin Ying and it's the most fun I have with any champ in this game, but it's just not worth it right now.

Solution: Reduce the cooldown on illusions while keeping the same damage on Shatter but reducing the damage on idle illusions. This will help to promote a variable playstyle.

Ultimate just needs to be completely reworked. It's just dull, boring and doesn't synergize with her kit nor fit her design in any way. None-aim, non-positional skill that simply drops another, mostly unnecessary, some-sort-of HoT on your teammates. To me, her ultimate right now feels like a 'temp art' of skills, as if the real ultimate is being prepared but isn't finished yet.

Solution: Give her utility ultimate instead. As was suggested in other thread, it could be some sort of blind with a counterplay option. Perfect example is a flashbang in CSGO - if you're quick enough you can simply look away. Of course she's not going to pull a grenades out of her hair but it would some sort of thematic alternative - it could be a command like Shatter, but instead of suicide bombing enemies, her illusions would beep for 0,75s and then detonate, blinding everyone looking their way for 2 seconds. Bonus fun points if this command is activable while the illusions are chasing down enemies with Shatter, giving some more strategic depth :)

Rivx
10-19-2016, 11:28 AM
I don't see anything wrong with shatter playstyle. Just don't use it when your illusions are on cooldown so you can have at least one back up immediately, and if you have to shatter in the middle of a teamfight then you can easily get them back with Rewind. If the enemies ignore you they can get hit by two 1k explosions, I've got a few 4k's this way.

Ult is pretty sad though, especially since the illusions it creates just stand still and your allies get out of their range very quickly.

YingLee
10-19-2016, 12:22 PM
Ok here are core changes that absolutely NEED to change on kit:

Illusions heal/offense balance. As the numbers are right now, her kit encourages the boring defense style, where you just drop the 'healing totem' and walk away because Shatter is almost never worth it. And that's a huge pity because I play full assassin Ying and it's the most fun I have with any champ in this game, but it's just not worth it right now.

Solution: Reduce the cooldown on illusions while keeping the same damage on Shatter but reducing the damage on idle illusions. This will help to promote a variable playstyle.
Okay just from this I can tell you play with yourself more often than you play with her

Shatter is extremely strong, I use it more than 90% of the other abilities in the game. There's very few that are so universally good.

Rivx
10-19-2016, 12:43 PM
Btw apparently illusions have a passionate hate for BK's bombs. Every time there's one on the enemy team, all my shatters end up going to waste because they just run towards the nearest mine and explode on it.

CunniYingus
10-20-2016, 04:24 AM
Okay just from this I can tell you play with yourself more often than you play with her

Shatter is extremely strong, I use it more than 90% of the other abilities in the game. There's very few that are so universally good.

How very rude, and also not sure what people are you playing against but most players who aren't afk have already learned to play against shattering illusions. Of course they don't evade everything, but those who hit their targets just don't justify the lack of healing from them.

But maybe you're just lower level :o

YingLee
10-20-2016, 07:01 AM
Btw apparently illusions have a passionate hate for BK's bombs. Every time there's one on the enemy team, all my shatters end up going to waste because they just run towards the nearest mine and explode on it.

Yeah I mentioned this in the initial post of this thread. They'll target all deployables. This means they'll also often sit on kinessa's mines


How very rude
Well your name & signature combo doesn't really instill confidence

Hesphaestus
10-20-2016, 11:08 AM
Ok here are core changes that absolutely NEED to change on kit:

Illusions heal/offense balance. As the numbers are right now, her kit encourages the boring defense style, where you just drop the 'healing totem' and walk away because Shatter is almost never worth it. And that's a huge pity because I play full assassin Ying and it's the most fun I have with any champ in this game, but it's just not worth it right now.

Solution: Reduce the cooldown on illusions while keeping the same damage on Shatter but reducing the damage on idle illusions. This will help to promote a variable playstyle.

Ultimate just needs to be completely reworked. It's just dull, boring and doesn't synergize with her kit nor fit her design in any way. None-aim, non-positional skill that simply drops another, mostly unnecessary, some-sort-of HoT on your teammates. To me, her ultimate right now feels like a 'temp art' of skills, as if the real ultimate is being prepared but isn't finished yet.

Solution: Give her utility ultimate instead. As was suggested in other thread, it could be some sort of blind with a counterplay option. Perfect example is a flashbang in CSGO - if you're quick enough you can simply look away. Of course she's not going to pull a grenades out of her hair but it would some sort of thematic alternative - it could be a command like Shatter, but instead of suicide bombing enemies, her illusions would beep for 0,75s and then detonate, blinding everyone looking their way for 2 seconds. Bonus fun points if this command is activable while the illusions are chasing down enemies with Shatter, giving some more strategic depth :)

Ying main here. If you've spent enough time playing Ying, (ive spent 121hours on her) you would realise that theres a layer of complexity around shatter. Knowing when to shatter makes the difference in the damage you do. Usually l leave my illusions around to heal the tank. If the tank backs of/looks like hes about to die, i shattering (sry tanks). As for her ultimate. I find that it helps your team survive an enemy flank, not so much a grover kind of heal. If i noticed enemy flankers coming in but the whole team seems oblivious (perhaps thats because i positioned myself in positions where i can easily see enemy flankers), if available ill ult and save the team. Other than that the ult isnt as great as it used to be.


Okay just from this I can tell you play with yourself more often than you play with her


But maybe you're just lower level :o

Lets try to avoid the name-calling guys. Keep it pleasant for each other and other forum goers okay :)

Rivx
10-20-2016, 04:11 PM
I'm currently using level 2 Fracture card that heals illusions when I shatter them, so I can do that when they're about to die to avoid wasting them. It also lets me do double shatters with just two points in Rewind.

YingLee
10-24-2016, 03:20 AM
I'm currently using level 2 Fracture card that heals illusions when I shatter them, so I can do that when they're about to die to avoid wasting them. It also lets me do double shatters with just two points in Rewind.
i feel like increasing the health on them flat out is better than just healing them on shatter