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View Full Version : Buck - Capable but lackluster. Needs a little rework



Venatore
09-29-2016, 10:45 AM
So right now so far it is practically public knowledge that while Buck is a capable flanker, he is still underwhelming when compared to the majority of other champions available right now.

While his kit is really good on paper, on the field he tends to suffer from a very simple problem: he lacks the offensive capacity to benefit from the rest of his skills. Why you ask? Because Buck has a well rounded kit of mobility, soft cc and sustain but has trash tier damage.

His only source of damage is his shotgun, which obviously is trash at long ranges, lackluster at mid range and on most cases, not as powerful as it should be at close range, and that is exactly the issue with buck. He can close the distance, he can slow you down and keep that distance and he can even sustain himself on a 1x1 encounter (with a very balanced mechanism, since you can easily shut down most of his healing), but he can't in fact really benefit from all of it, since his only damage source has majors flaws for the situations he puts himself into, lets check them:

- Bad weapon at long and mid range due to spread, low magazine and reload speed;
- Not optimal where it should be, max damage is too low for the current ROF, magazine size and reload speed. Even the accuracy is not that great, since flankers usually end up targeting more mobile targets its easy to miss with a shotgun that only has 6 shells;
- His only damage buff doesn't help with any of it, you are doing double damage, but it is still hard to aim, slow to fire and easy to avoid.

That said, what is my simple suggestion to improve buck? Give him 2 max ammo and make his shotgun an automatic weapon, with higher rate of fire. It makes much more sense since he is not stationary like Barik, he moves around, its much more logical for him to use an automatic shotgun. His max damage per shot would not increase, but his potential DPS would be much higher in a skilled player hand. Even his ult would be more useful since you could activate it to refresh ammo/heal and really benefit for it in a situation where you need to cap a support and a damage dealer, you can unload at one, ult and immediately unload with double damage at the other, you are now a train, get out of the way or get rekt.

So, what do you guys think? I think it is a simple, doable solution that would put Buck right on track.

Silbergeist
09-29-2016, 12:26 PM
I've been playing with Buck at a better ping now, and I must say he's a lot better when you're having faster responses, and I don't feel he lacks damage. He's a tanky character, if you give too much damage he may need a health nerf, which would make him a different character altogether. But I think he needs some buffs, of course, mainly to sustain a little better (against those friggin' bursts), so I think giving him damage reduction through Regeneration would be a great first call.

Then something must be done about his reload (it doesn't make much sense that he has this cap), be it by removing it altogether and reverting to a normal reload of 1 or 2 seconds, or by giving it a passive while he reloads. He could regenerate some health while also gaining movement speed (the movement speed could be a little too much, I know), or the passive could be linked to his net's cooldown, which I also think is a problem. Like, for every bullet he reloads after the first one his net cooldown's reduced by 10%, it could affect his Q too, but this would maybe be too much.

Last of all, as I've just said, I think his net's cooldown's just too much. Be it reduced by the aforementioned idea or just by raw reducing it, 14 seconds is too much.

That's pretty much everything, I also thought his supreme was bad, but with the better latency and the ammo bug being fixed, it's actually a pretty good supreme, really strong, and not as OP as some characters' supremes are. But it could be changed to something more flashy and based on helping out the team, even though it's not a necessity, just a design choice that's up to Hi-Rez to decide.

Those are my conclusions currently.

kargon
09-29-2016, 12:40 PM
That public knowledge was before patch OB34.

As of the latest patch, due to the hitscan fix for Buck / Barik weapons, Buck is quite good now. QUITE! He is an exceptionally good flanker (which is his job). The goal is to pop into the back (or side) lines, kill who you can, and get out. He is very VERY good at this.

It's important to note that he is not a "Damage" char. Quite often you'll end the match with a relatively low 40k damage but 35-40 Eliminations with 10-15 being Solo kills. This would be in the same game your Viktor does 130k or so.

Buck is incredibly hard to kill. He's the "tanky" flanker so he can stick around for an extra shot or two, then it's time to get out. This is an important aspect of his gameplay style. You flank, make yourself known by taking the first shot, the enemy turns on you, you finish them, and then GTFO. It's very hard to kill him without good chase.

One on One, Buck can go toe to toe with ANY Damage or Flank character, though I will admit that Evie is quite hard to finish (good escape, can get far very fast).

To reply to your points:

- He can also damage (and finish) with Heroic Leap and Net (small damage, but it's additional damage)
- Buck isn't meant to have a good weapon at mid/long range. His weapon is close. CLOSE.
- If you are having ammo problems, pick Deft Hands (and rank it up to 2 in Seige, 1 in Payload)

Tips:

With Deft Hands, learn to Shoot > Reload, Shoot > Reload. With Deft Hands 2, it's a very similar rate of fire to Shoot, Shoot, Shoot, Shoot, Shoot, Shoot... except you never run out of bullets. This is a key technique for Buck.

Follow up a successful Heroic Leap with Net. That 1 second timer is perfect for getting your Net Shot to connect (since they move slower!).

Learn when to Heroic Leap UP instead of AWAY. Come down on the opponent, preferably behind them, get a shot or two off, activate Recovery, another shot or two, and then your Heroic Leap is back up. At this point, decide to leap away (if you are losing), or UP (if you are winning) so you can come back down and hit them for another 350 damage as well as slow them again.

As it stands, Buck is on track.

My only suggestion is that his Ult reload his weapon automatically... which is what it is supposed to do, but doesn't seem to work.

kargon
09-29-2016, 12:45 PM
Then something must be done about his reload (it doesn't make much sense that he has this cap), be it by removing it altogether and reverting to a normal reload of 1 or 2 seconds, or by giving it a passive while he reloads. He could regenerate some health while also gaining movement speed (the movement speed could be a little too much, I know), or the passive could be linked to his net's cooldown, which I also think is a problem. Like, for every bullet he reloads after the first one his net cooldown's reduced by 10%, it could affect his Q too, but this would maybe be too much

As mentioned, Deft Hands, and Shoot > Reload. You can't afford to shoot 2-3 shots and THEN reload. You want to shoot ONE shot, then reload (Deft Hands 2 > Shoot, is incredibly fast with only loading one bullet).


Last of all, as I've just said, I think his net's cooldown's just too much. Be it reduced by the aforementioned idea or just by raw reducing it, 14 seconds is too much.

It's pretty long, I agree. However, having it TOO often would probably make him a little too strong. Getting 2x 540 damage shots + 30% each (700+), and then adding headshot... faster than he gets it now, would be pretty crazy.

Make sure you combine Shoot > Reload (along with Deft Hands 1 or 2), and Headshots. I think you'll notice your damage go WAY up as well as your ability to stick around with a few more bullets available.

Silbergeist
09-29-2016, 01:17 PM
As mentioned, Deft Hands, and Shoot > Reload. You can't afford to shoot 2-3 shots and THEN reload. You want to shoot ONE shot, then reload (Deft Hands 2 > Shoot, is incredibly fast with only loading one bullet).



It's pretty long, I agree. However, having it TOO often would probably make him a little too strong. Getting 2x 540 damage shots + 30% each (700+), and then adding headshot... faster than he gets it now, would be pretty crazy.

Make sure you combine Shoot > Reload (along with Deft Hands 1 or 2), and Headshots. I think you'll notice your damage go WAY up as well as your ability to stick around with a few more bullets available.

About Deft Hands: I don't like the idea of depending on a specific item to fix a mechanic problem. Items should be there as options for a playstyle, if it becomes a must, as in other options are weaker in comparison, it's wrong and needs a real fix. Those things should be optional to a playstyle or tactic, and the same go for cards, there shouldn't be the "must have" cards, they all should have equivalent value so that you can choose your own deck that matches what you want to do in a match.

My idea of reducing the cooldown based on the reload would make it tactical. If you're reloading, you're vulnerable, but also reducing those 14 seconds from Net Shot, so it's balanced enough in my conception, and wouldn't make it available too often, as there would be the need for you to reload to have the cooldown buff, both balancing each other.

As for a raw cooldown reduction, I think reducing it to 10 seconds, like Regeneration, would be a good call. Buck would be like Pip with slightly longer cooldowns. Pip, for instance, has his Slowing Bomb (RMB), that's on an 8 seconds cooldown and slows for like double the time Buck's Net does, in an area, while Buck's single target, so even if it only gives one damage bonus, the slow's still enough to compensate for it. So, yeah, 14 seconds cooldown's too much.

kargon
09-29-2016, 01:38 PM
About Deft Hands: I don't like the idea of depending on a specific item to fix a mechanic problem. Items should be there as options for a playstyle, if it becomes a must, as in other options are weaker in comparison, it's wrong and needs a real fix. Those things should be optional to a playstyle or tactic, and the same go for cards, there shouldn't be the "must have" cards, they all should have equivalent value so that you can choose your own deck that matches what you want to do in a match.

This isn't a mechanic problem, it's his design. It's intentional. Gun does great damage. Can't have too many shots available without skill involved or he becomes the "set it and forget it" character. You just hold the button down and profit. That isn't skill. There should be a clear difference between good players and great players. Strategy and aiming is one, loadouts, adaptation, reaction are other things.

So seriously... why even have Deft Hands as a talent then? There would be no reason to pick it if everyone's reload was good. His weapon is very strong up close, and if he had access to 8 bullets without any sort of bullet management (such Shoot > Reload), he would be ridiculous. If he had no real drawback to doing crazy damage in close, where is the balance? There is balance now; high damage, low total amount of shots (without work).

None of these are MUST HAVES. They are exactly what you said; options on a playstyle preference.

If players don't HAVE to make a choice (in this case, Deft Hands or Cauterize... SOMETIMES Bulldozer, for Buck), then they won't. They will pick one thing, and the rest are completely useless. No choice. Deft Hands allows you to customize your playstyle. Do you want to be the Buck that jumps in, unloads 6 shells and gets out? Pick Cauterize. Do you want to be the Buck that jumps in, abuses his tankiness, sticks around for 8-10 shots because you can manage shots / reloads better? Pick Deft Hands. Do you want to be the Buck that clears deployables and runs? Pick Bulldozer. These are all choices which allow you to customize and personalize your playstyle. This is solid design.

From personal experience, I don't always pick Deft Hands. I look to see what the enemies have picked, and I often go with Life Rip first (assuming no Cauterize on the enemy team). If they have more than one healer, I go for Cauterize and get it to at least level 2. That changes the way I play the character. With Life Rip, I can stick around juuuust a little bit longer before I have to get out... which usually allows me 2 Heroic Leaps. With Cauterize, I'm about getting into the back line WITHOUT using Heroic Leap so I can score a massive headshot (and apply Cauterize) and then use my Heroic Leap to chase. With Deft Hands, I stick around and shoot > reload > shoot > reload> shoot > shoot, shoot (if necessary) and then leave.

The burn cards are there for you to decide what area you want to focus on and strengthen depending on who you are facing. This is exactly what they do.


My idea of reducing the cooldown based on the reload would make it tactical. If you're reloading, you're vulnerable, but also reducing those 14 seconds from Net Shot, so it's balanced enough in my conception, and wouldn't make it available too often, as there would be the need for you reload to have the cooldown buff, both balancing each other.

As for a raw cooldown reduction, I think reducing it to 10 seconds, like Regeneration, would be a good call. Buck would be like Pip with slightly longer cooldowns. Pip, for instance, has his Slowing Bomb (RMB), that's on an 8 seconds cooldown and slows for like double the time Buck's Net does, in an area, while Buck's single target, so even if it only gives one damage bonus, the slow's still enough to compensate for it. So, yeah, 14 seconds cooldown's too much.

An issue here that isn't addressed is the synergy between his talents. If you jump in, net shot, shoot a couple times (3-4 seconds), activate reload, then leap into the air (3 seconds killed), then land and have it back already... it's going to be too strong. That's 6-7 seconds of time from the first Net.

With an already low base of 10 seconds (as you suggested), and additional CDR during Reload, AND Concussion IV (-4 seconds Net Shot CDR), the Net would be back in like 4-5 seconds. This is insane.

You can already get Net Shot down to 10 seconds with Concussion IV, by the way. If you want it any lower, add Stomping Ground (up to 60% CDR on ALL skills on a kill). Want even more? Try Chronos (base 10% extra).

What I'm saying here is that you can absolutely get what you want, but it's a choice. Think about it:

Concussion IV (brings Net Shot to 10 seconds from 14)
Chronos L1, L2, L3 (brings net shot down to 9, 8 and 7 seconds from 10 after Concussion IV)
Stomping Ground to add even MORE CDR on kills.

This is already good... but it's a choice. Once it becomes the standard, it's no longer a choice. It's a tradeoff and a decision you have to make.

If you want to run this setup, then take Speed Loader IV for 20% Reload Speed (and thus you don't need Deft Hands). Or, combine it with Deft Hands for even faster reload. Again, a choice.

Also, you can have both Concussion IV and Speed Loader IV if you so choose.

Choices are good (and fun!).

Silbergeist
09-29-2016, 02:26 PM
This isn't a mechanic problem, it's his design. It's intentional. Gun does great damage. Can't have too many shots available without skill involved or he becomes the "set it and forget it" character. You just hold the button down and profit. That isn't skill. There should be a clear difference between good players and great players. Strategy and aiming is one, loadouts, adaptation, reaction are other things.

So seriously... why even have Deft Hands as a talent then? There would be no reason to pick it if everyone's reload was good. His weapon is very strong up close, and if he had access to 8 bullets without any sort of bullet management (such Shoot > Reload), he would be ridiculous. If he had no real drawback to doing crazy damage in close, where is the balance? There is balance now; high damage, low total amount of shots (without work).

None of these are MUST HAVES. They are exactly what you said; options on a playstyle preference.

If players don't HAVE to make a choice (in this case, Deft Hands or Cauterize... SOMETIMES Bulldozer, for Buck), then they won't. They will pick one thing, and the rest are completely useless. No choice. Deft Hands allows you to customize your playstyle. Do you want to be the Buck that jumps in, unloads 6 shells and gets out? Pick Cauterize. Do you want to be the Buck that jumps in, abuses his tankiness, sticks around for 8-10 shots because you can manage shots / reloads better? Pick Deft Hands. Do you want to be the Buck that clears deployables and runs? Pick Bulldozer. These are all choices which allow you to customize and personalize your playstyle. This is solid design.

From personal experience, I don't always pick Deft Hands. I look to see what the enemies have picked, and I often go with Life Rip first (assuming no Cauterize on the enemy team). If they have more than one healer, I go for Cauterize and get it to at least level 2. That changes the way I play the character. With Life Rip, I can stick around juuuust a little bit longer before I have to get out... which usually allows me 2 Heroic Leaps. With Cauterize, I'm about getting into the back line WITHOUT using Heroic Leap so I can score a massive headshot (and apply Cauterize) and then use my Heroic Leap to chase. With Deft Hands, I stick around and shoot > reload > shoot > reload> shoot > shoot, shoot (if necessary) and then leave.

The burn cards are there for you to decide what area you want to focus on and strengthen depending on who you are facing. This is exactly what they do.

Well, you've suggested Deft Hands as an argument to me saying that his reload mechanic needs a fix, so I just followed this line, but if you don't think Deft Hands is a must for a fix to his reload, you believe his reload is just good as is, from what you've said there. I think it's too much, his damage isn't that high to justify it, you have Barik with kind of the same DPS and a faster reload, same for Pip, so it still rings to me that his reload needs to be lower, be it as it may. Giving it a passive would be the best option (while keeping it the same speed as it is now), in my opinion, would add tactical value, and that's always good, would make the champion more unique also.


An issue here that isn't addressed is the synergy between his talents. If you jump in, net shot, shoot a couple times (3-4 seconds), activate reload, then leap into the air (3 seconds killed), then land and have it back already... it's going to be too strong. That's 6-7 seconds of time from the first Net.

I see no problem here, you've waited roughly 7 to 8 seconds to be able to use the skill again, pretty much like Pip has to wait to use his RMB a second time, but for you to get this cooldown reduction you had to reload, so you still had to be vulnerable for quite some time to get your passive working. I think it's balanced enough, you could change the mechanic to reduce Net Shot's cooldown by 1 second every bullet Buck reloads after the first one, which would make it remove 5 seconds, a little less than the 50% from before.


With an already low base of 10 seconds (as you suggested), and additional CDR during Reload, AND Concussion IV (-4 seconds Net Shot CDR), the Net would be back in like 4-5 seconds. This is insane.

You've got it wrong here, my idea of reducing the cooldown of Net Shot to 10 seconds is an option to having the cooldown passive on reload. Having both would be insane, as you've said.


You can already get Net Shot down to 10 seconds with Concussion IV, by the way. If you want it any lower, add Stomping Ground (up to 60% CDR on ALL skills on a kill). Want even more? Try Chronos (base 10% extra).

What I'm saying here is that you can absolutely get what you want, but it's a choice. Think about it:

Concussion IV (brings Net Shot to 10 seconds from 14)
Chronos L1, L2, L3 (brings net shot down to 9, 8 and 7 seconds from 10 after Concussion IV)
Stomping Ground to add even MORE CDR on kills.

This is already good... but it's a choice. Once it becomes the standard, it's no longer a choice. It's a tradeoff and a decision you have to make.

If you want to run this setup, then take Speed Loader IV for 20% Reload Speed (and thus you don't need Deft Hands). Or, combine it with Deft Hands for even faster reload. Again, a choice.

Also, you can have both Concussion IV and Speed Loader IV if you so choose.

Choices are good (and fun!).

Cards are a choice, but they're not exclusive to Buck, Pip can also get cooldown reduction on his 8 seconds RMB, and he can also get Chronos, of course. In the end, you shouldn't depend on your cards to have a balanced cooldown on one skill, for as much as you have a way to reduce your cooldown to 10 seconds for 4 point, which's a lot, Pip can get his to 4 seconds, then you get Chronos on top of this and you're using RMB as your basic attack.

What I mean is, skills should be balanced by their raw values, cards are an add-on that helps you work out a playstyle. Having a skill on 14 seconds cooldown should mean this skill is really strong, which isn't the case on Buck's Net Shot, it's just as good as Pip's RMB, maybe a little better, so 10 seconds cooldown would make sense, and then if you want it to be less, you could get Concussion.

But I prefer the passive idea, you leave Net Shot's cooldown 14 seconds, but give his reload the said passive of less 10% every bullet he reloads after the first one, and it becomes a lot more interesting to work with his skills and combo mechanics.

EDIT: And even if you get Concussion, as the passive removes a percentage of the cooldown, it also affects how much the passive will decrease from the skill's cooldown.

kargon
09-29-2016, 02:39 PM
Well, you've suggested Deft Hands as an argument to me saying that his reload mechanic needs a fix, so I just followed this line, but if you don't think Deft Hands is a must for a fix to his reload, you believe his reload is just good as is, from what you've said there. I think it's too much, his damage isn't that high to justify it, you have Barik with kind of the same DPS and a faster reload, same for Pip, so it still rings to me that his reload needs to be lower, be it as it may. Giving it a passive would be the best option, in my opinion, would add tactical value, and that's always good, would make the champion more unique also.

I don't say it needs a fix. I'm saying it's fine as is because you are given TWO different ways of reducing it, if you feel that's the style of Buck you want to play. I'd say about half of my games I don't pick any type of reloading speed increase because it's not necessary (depends on opponents, game mode, offense/defense of payload, etc).

His damage is actually in a really good place with the hitscan fix that came with OB34.




I see no problem here, you've waited roughly 7 to 8 seconds to be able to use the skill again, pretty much like Pip has to wait to use his RMB a second time, but for you to get this cooldown reduction you had to reload, so you still had to be vulnerable for quite some time to get your passive working. I think it's balanced enough, you could change the mechanic to reduce Net Shot's cooldown by 1 second every bullet Buck reloads after the first one, which would make it remove 5 seconds, a little less than the 50% from before.

Like I said below, with the right combination of burn cards and loadout, you'd be able to get this to an insane level of CDR (and thus be able to cast it far too often). They've already given us the options to get it to 7-8 seconds (or lower). This exists in the game right now.



You've got it wrong here, my idea of reducing the cooldown of Net Shot to 10 seconds is an option to having the cooldown passive on reload. Having both would be insane, as you've said.

As I mentioned, you can already get it far below 10 seconds without any of this, so it's not needed in any way. It's simply a choice, but a choice that is available if you want it.



Cards are a choice, but they're not exclusive to Buck, Pip can also get cooldown reduction on his 8 seconds RMB, and he can also get Chronos, of course. In the end, you shouldn't depend on your cards to have a balanced cooldown on one skill, for as much as you have a way to reduce your cooldown to 10 seconds for 4 point, which's a lot, Pip can get his to 4 seconds, then you get Chronos on top of this and you're using RMB as your basic attack.

What I mean is, skills should be balanced by their raw values, cards are an add-on that helps you work out a playstyle. Having a skill on 14 seconds cooldown should mean this skill is really strong, which isn't the case on Buck's Net Shot, it's just as good as Pip's RMB, maybe a little better, so 10 seconds cooldown would make sense, and then if you want it to be less, you could get Concussion.

The thing is, the cooldown is balanced because of the options they've given you. You choose which things you want to be stronger... again, a choice. Do you want your Heroic Leap to be up a lot? Go that direction. Do you want reload to be really fast? You have two options for that. Do you want Net to be on a ridiculously low CD? You have that too. You can't have it all... and that is why it's a choice.

If it was base 10 seconds, you could make it 6 seconds with Concussion IV. That's before anything else (Chronos, Stomping Grounds). Again, insane. If you want it to be 10 seconds, make it 10 seconds. It's completely available to you.

Silbergeist
09-29-2016, 02:54 PM
I don't say it needs a fix. I'm saying it's fine as is because you are given TWO different ways of reducing it, if you feel that's the style of Buck you want to play. I'd say about half of my games I don't pick any type of reloading speed increase because it's not necessary (depends on opponents, game mode, offense/defense of payload, etc).

His damage is actually in a really good place with the hitscan fix that came with OB34.

I concur, his damage's great, but the option of reducing the reload time isn't avaiable just for Buck, any character can have it, so, while Buck needs level 3 Deft Hands to have a reload closer to what Barik has, Barik with a level 3 Deft Hands would basically have no reload, but that's not needed, Barik can get anything else in place, and while Buck wasted one item slot and a lot of credits just to get to the same level as Barik, Barik can just buy anything else in place of Deft Hands while reloading just as fast as Buck and pretty much the same DPS. What's Buck's advantage here that justifies his long reload?



Like I said below, with the right combination of burn cards and loadout, you'd be able to get this to an insane level of CDR (and thus be able to cast it far too often). They've already given us the options to get it to 7-8 seconds (or lower). This exists in the game right now.

As I mentioned, you can already get it far below 10 seconds without any of this, so it's not needed in any way. It's simply a choice, but a choice that is available if you want it.

The thing is, the cooldown is balanced because of the options they've given you. You choose which things you want to be stronger... again, a choice. Do you want your Heroic Leap to be up a lot? Go that direction. Do you want reload to be really fast? You have two options for that. Do you want Net to be on a ridiculously low CD? You have that too. You can't have it all... and that is why it's a choice.

If it was base 10 seconds, you could make it 6 seconds with Concussion IV. That's before anything else (Chronos, Stomping Grounds). Again, insane. If you want it to be 10 seconds, make it 10 seconds. It's completely available to you.

All of this can be summarized to this: anyone has these choices.

Pretty much like Barik reloads just as fast as Buck after buying level 3 Deft Hands, Pip can use his RMB just as fast as Buck after spending 6 points in two cooldown cards (and one has a special requirement to be activated), and if Pip did the same he would be even more ridiculous than Buck, shooting his RMB every 2 seconds. Then again, what's Buck's advantage on his Net Shot that would justify him needing to spend 4 points, or more, on cards, plus the credits and slot for Chronos, just to have the skill's cooldown match that of Pip's RMB?

Pip also has those card options, and if he does the same as this hypothetical Buck, he would still have a cooldown a lot shorter than Buck for pretty much an equivalent skill.

kargon
09-29-2016, 03:53 PM
I concur, his damage's great, but the option of reducing the reload time isn't avaiable just for Buck, any character can have it, so, while Buck needs level 3 Deft Hands to have a reload closer to what Barik has, Barik with a level 3 Deft Hands would basically have no reload, but that's not needed, Barik can get anything else in place, and while Buck wasted one item slot and a lot of credits just to get to the same level as Barik, Barik can just buy anything else in place of Deft Hands while reloading just as fast as Buck and pretty much the same DPS. What's Buck's advantage here that justifies his long reload?

The point being, what? Buck has better initiate and escape. Buck has stronger burst. I mean, we can list all the differences as well as we can list the similarities.

Interestingly enough, Barik can "waste" all the item slots or card slots he want and NEVER have an equivalent initiate or escape. They are different characters, this is an apples to oranges comparison... even if their gun is similar. Buck absolutely needs a drawback to his high damage and huge range initiate/escape. Some of that is on reload which can be managed/mitigated 3 different ways (Shoot > Reload; Deft Hands; Quick Reloader).



All of this can be summarized to this: anyone has these choices.

Yet they all aren't the same and/or have the same impact on their unique kit. Summarizing that doesn't change the fact that everyone has a different kit and the impact of said burn cards (and loadout options, which are also mostly unique) are clearly more or less effective depending on the character.


Pretty much like Barik reloads just as fast as Buck after buying level 3 Deft Hands, Pip can use his RMB just as fast as Buck after spending 6 points in two cooldown cards (and one has a special requirement to be activated), and if Pip did the same he would be even more ridiculous than Buck, shooting his RMB every 2 seconds. Then again, what's Buck's advantage on his Net Shot that would justify him needing to spend 4 points, or more, on cards, plus the credits and slot for Chronos, just to have the skill's cooldown match that of Pip's RMB?

Pip also has those card options, and if he does the same as this hypothetical Buck, he would still have a cooldown a lot shorter than Buck for pretty much an equivalent skill.

If you think that with those Pip choices that he's a better flanker than Buck, then perhaps you should play him as such.

I don't pick skills to make my character play like another character, otherwise I would simply just play the other character. I pick the skills/loadouts/cards to accentuate what they do well and offset (if available) any specifically designed weaknesses. Now, I also have loadouts that only accentuate their positives to really push them over the top at doing their job, but again, depending on who I'm playing with, who I'm playing against, what mode, and what map, I change things up. This is the benefit of the burn card system (and loadout). If Buck's reload was as fast as Barick, it would never be a meaningful choice to take Deft Hands because it wouldn't be a weakness... there'd be no choice. It would effectively reduce the number of choices... which is going against what the system is about.

Silbergeist
09-29-2016, 05:04 PM
The point being, what? Buck has better initiate and escape. Buck has stronger burst. I mean, we can list all the differences as well as we can list the similarities.

Interestingly enough, Barik can "waste" all the item slots or card slots he want and NEVER have an equivalent initiate or escape. They are different characters, this is an apples to oranges comparison... even if their gun is similar. Buck absolutely needs a drawback to his high damage and huge range initiate/escape. Some of that is on reload which can be managed/mitigated 3 different ways (Shoot > Reload; Deft Hands; Quick Reloader).

They are different characters indeed, but I question, does the reload balance Buck's mobility or just outweights it? The matter here is balance, and I'm not parting from the principle that Buck's balanced, I'm saying he's lacking in some areas. You say this reload exists to balance his mobility and slightly faster rate of fire, and I agree, but, you see, I had to directly call you on this point to have this answer, but it's satisfactory, it's the answer I needed to change my mind. He's mobile and tanky, so he needs some limit, they put it on his reload.



Yet they all aren't the same and/or have the same impact on their unique kit. Summarizing that doesn't change the fact that everyone has a different kit and the impact of said burn cards (and loadout options, which are also mostly unique) are clearly more or less effective depending on the character.

You're talking about choices and neglecting balance, that's the problem. I'm all about balance first, choices later. I'll talk more about this next.


If you think that with those Pip choices that he's a better flanker than Buck, then perhaps you should play him as such.

I don't pick skills to make my character play like another character, otherwise I would simply just play the other character. I pick the skills/loadouts/cards to accentuate what they do well and offset (if available) any specifically designed weaknesses. Now, I also have loadouts that only accentuate their positives to really push them over the top at doing their job, but again, depending on who I'm playing with, who I'm playing against, what mode, and what map, I change things up. This is the benefit of the burn card system (and loadout). If Buck's reload was as fast as Barick, it would never be a meaningful choice to take Deft Hands because it wouldn't be a weakness... there'd be no choice. It would effectively reduce the number of choices I had... which is going against what the system is about.

Yes, my friend, that's the point of my arguing. I'm saying Buck's not balanced in those areas, that's why choices aren't a good answer, as they're common to every character, so they can't balance things out. If you take away cards and items and just leave characters and their skills, why Buck's Net Shot's on a higher cooldown than Pip's RMB? What does Buck has that counterbalances this? You could argue he has more health than Pip, but then again, his model's hitbox is far bigger and he's "melee", both of those already overweight Buck's health. Buck's mobility's already counterbalanced by his reload, so that's out of the way also.

It's not about "playing like Pip", it's about being balanced when compared to Pip, or any other character. If it was about playing like Pip, I would say Buck needs a smaller hitbox, no fall off damage, a projectile weapon and a burst heal, but that's not the case. Buck having a reload that's longer than Barik is a weakness, of course, but it needs a reason to be a weakness. Giving such a weakness just to create more choices would be a problem, as you're not creating it to balance things out. But Buck's reload matter's already out of the way, just used it to illustrate my point.

It's also not about Pip being a better flanker, but about him being a better overall character. It's about character's worth. Would people prefer Pip or Buck on their team? You could make this comparison with any other champion. And, actually, Pip can play like a flanker, as I've seen some do, and he's actually pretty good at it with all his mobility, after all, classes aren't a thing set in stone, they're just what the devs thought would be better for each Champion, but they can be ignored, as each Champion is his own class.

I play Buck instead of Pip because I like Buck's playstyle, not Pip's, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't voice his weaknesses, and basing them on other character's is a must, as I'll be competing against those characters, and if they do something similar, but just overall better, I must ask for a balance.

Now, to the matter of fact, Pip has his RMB that slows in an area for 2.5 seconds, giving bonus damage to the first shot, and has a cooldown of 8 seconds, he also has a heal that's 1000 health instant and in an area, also on an 8 seconds cooldown. Buck has his Net that slows one target for 1.5 seconds and applies bonus damage through the duration, it's on a 14 seconds cooldown, 6 seconds more than Pip's RMB, also, Buck has a heal that regenerates 1000 health through 4 seconds on a 10 seconds cooldown, it's a weaker version of Pip's heal, but on a higher cooldown, being it 2 seconds longer. Even if you take cards and items, those skills still have said differences, which in this scenario would make Buck the weaker character, now what I want to know is: what Buck has more than Pip to make it needed that those skills be on such a lower level? What counterbalances this?

Let's see:
-Buck has high health, which's counterbalanced by his shorter range, lower damage and higher model hitbox.
-Buck has high mobility, which's counterbalanced by his reload mechanic.
-Buck has a healing skill that's weaker than most on a slightly higher cooldown, what counterbalances this?
-Buck has a CC that slows one target for 1.5 seconds and gives bonus damage through the duration, but it's on a much higher cooldown than Pip's RMB that does practically the same, so what counterbalances this?

kargon
09-29-2016, 06:34 PM
They are different characters indeed, but I question, does the reload balance Buck's mobility or just outweights it? The matter here is balance, and I'm not parting from the principle that Buck's balanced, I'm saying he's lacking in some areas. You say this reload exists to balance his mobility and slightly faster rate of fire, and I agree, but, you see, I had to directly call you on this point to have this answer, but it's satisfactory, it's the answer I needed to change my mind. He's mobile and tanky, so he needs some limit, they put it on his reload.

Basically, yes... I think the reload (and limited clip) balances out his burst. Burst being:

Heroic Leap > Net Shot > Shot, Shot...
... and
Ultimate > Heroic Leap > Net Shot > Shot, Shot...

Before I go any further, I want to point out that Buck's Ultimate seems to be bugged in that it is not granting a full reload (which it clearly states it should). This would increase his sustained damage, but not change his burst. Just something to mention.

Anyway, he can do quite a bit of damage in those 6 shots, but if he fails, it's time to leave. You can mitigate your sustained damage by reload weaving (shoot > reload > shoot > reload) which is more effective with Quick Reload IV or Deft Hands I (or both... or even more with II or III).

The fact that he has an escape if needed (with Heroic Leap) is why he can't have more bullets (without work). Forcing the reload on him basically means you are really vulnerable and need to Heroic Leap away to fight another day, UNLESS you were reload weaving (or your Ult worked properly). In order to reload weave properly, you need some form of reload speed decrease, which you can get from the aforementioned card or burnout cards. This is something that increases player mastery, and gives a meaningful choice to the player as well ("how do you want to play?").



You're talking about choices and neglecting balance, that's the problem. I'm all about balance first, choices later. I'll talk more about this next.

Actually, I've always come from this in regards to balance. This thread is about how he needs a little rework, and I feel he doesn't. I actually feel Buck is in a very good place and his strengths and weaknesses are "fair". I feel he IS balanced.



Yes, my friend, that's the point of my arguing. I'm saying Buck's not balanced in those areas, that's why choices aren't a good answer, as they're common to every character, so they can't balance things out. If you take away cards and items and just leave characters and their skills, why Buck's Net Shot's on a higher cooldown than Pip's RMB? What does Buck has that counterbalances this? You could argue he has more health than Pip, but then again, his model's hitbox is far bigger and he's "melee", both of those already overweight Buck's health. Buck's mobility's already counterbalanced by his reload, so that's out of the way also.

I am specifically saying he IS balanced in those areas. He has obvious strengths and obvious weaknesses. Put them together and you have some form of balance. More of this, less of that. You then utilize the choices that are available to every character to either shore up perceived weaknesses, or accentuate his positives, or a mix of both.

Even though every character has the same burn card choices available, the impact of each of those cards affect each of them differently because of their innate abilities. For example; Skye has a quick reload, and even then, taking Deft Hands is very useful for her. She doesn't need it, but it accentuates one of her positives (already strong reload). Her reload is drastically faster than Buck. Now Buck's reload is slow (and gets slower the more bullets he has to reload), so for him, you pick it to shore up a weakness. In both cases you are making the same choice for a completely different reason.

As for Pip vs Buck RMB. The answer (IMO) is quite obvious. Pip slows you by 50% for 2.5 seconds. Buck slows you for 50% for 1.5 seconds but increases damage by 30% during that time. Buck's is about setting up his brutal damage. Pips is about just slowing you down. Net gives Buck 2 shots within the default 1.5s window (.9 fire rate) at 30% increase... which takes his damage from 540 max to 700+ max (for those two shots). Increasing it by .6 with Tangled 2 can get you 3 shots at .9 per within a 2.1s Net Duration.

Imagine a world where Buck has more frequent access to a 30% damage buff and the ability to reload in-combat to take advantage of it. He would be an absolute destroyer. His health would have to be nerfed to compensate, and then he's just a budget version of Skye. The more tanky version of Buck gives him the ability to stick around and reload weave, earn a second Heroic Leap mid-combat (for escape), and get that one last shot in before he has to leave.



It's not about "playing like Pip", it's about being balanced when compared to Pip, or any other character. If it was about playing like Pip, I would say Buck needs a smaller hitbox, no fall off damage, a projectile weapon and a burst heal, but that's not the case. Buck having a reload that's longer than Barik is a weakness, of course, but it needs a reason to be a weakness. Giving such a weakness just to create more choices would be a problem, as you're not creating it to balance things out. But Buck's reload matter's already out of the way, just used it to illustrate my point.

Again, Buck's burst is MUCH higher than both Pip and Barik. Yes, Barik has a similar shotgun and turrets, but also lacks the mobility to effectively use it to flank people (thus, he is not a flanker). His turrets must mark an opponent to get his buff (or double buff), while Buck can choose who he wants to mark and get the 30% right off the bat.

What is Barik's weakness? Almost zero mobility. Sure he can scoot away... but to where? Barik has his own strengths... the ability to control an area... very well. Barik being able to reload faster helps him hold an area... it definitely doesn't help him flank (I mean... it doesn't hurt his ability to flank, but if you play Barik as a flank, you use him to set up turrets behind the enemy who is pushing towards your team). So yea, Buck obviously can't hold an area as well, so I wouldn't expect his toolset to allow that. These are obvious tradeoffs.



It's also not about Pip being a better flanker, but about him being a better overall character. It's about character's worth. Would people prefer Pip or Buck on their team? You could make this comparison with any other champion. And, actually, Pip can play like a flanker, as I've seen some do, and he's actually pretty good at it with all his mobility, after all, classes aren't a thing set in stone, they're just what the devs thought would be better for each Champion, but they can be ignored, as each Champion is his own class.

Better is subjective. Pip is not a better flanker than Buck. This is a matter of fact. Pip is more versatile than Buck, that's for sure. Heal, damage, support (from range), etc.

Team composition is a real thing. If my team had Grover, Fernando, Barik, Viktor... I definitely would not play Pip. I'd play a flanker, and especially in this team comp, I would pick Buck (self sustain, tanky, and I know the rest of the group will be relatively close together).

If my team had Makoa, Grohk, Cassie, Viktor, I would most-likely pick Pip (then again, I also might pick Grover).

I don't outright disagree that SOME classes can be played different ways, but you aren't playing Skye as a Tank, or Cassie as a Healer. Some characters have a bit of versatility (Pip being one of them, Grover being another), but for the most part, classes are mostly set in stone with a few exceptions.



I play Buck instead of Pip because I like Buck's playstyle, not Pip's, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't voice his weaknesses, and basing them on other character's is a must, as I'll be competing against those characters, and if they do something similar, but just overall better, I must ask for a balance.

Now, to the matter of fact, Pip has his RMB that slows in an area for 2.5 seconds, giving bonus damage to the first shot, and has a cooldown of 8 seconds, he also has a heal that's 1000 health instant and in an area, also on an 8 seconds cooldown. Buck has his Net that slows one target for 1.5 seconds and applies bonus damage through the duration, it's on a 14 seconds cooldown, 6 seconds more than Pip's RMB, also, Buck has a heal that regenerates 1000 health through 4 seconds on a 10 seconds cooldown, it's a weaker version of Pip's heal, but on a higher cooldown, being it 2 seconds longer. Even if you take cards and items, those skills still have said differences, which in this scenario would make Buck the weaker character, now what I want to know is: what Buck has more than Pip to make it needed that those skills be on such a lower level? What counterbalances this?

Where are you getting the bonus damage from Explosive Flask? Both in-game and on the official page it says:

"Fire an explosive flask that deals 150 damage and slows enemies by 50% for 2.5s."

Where is the damage boost? It's not in the base description, and it's not in the loadout cards.

Buck's heal is also a buff which can activate lifesteal (if you so choose to card it). Pip also cards his, but he has to hit an enemy with something first. Buck can just activate and then damage.

Yes, Pip can activate his more often, because Buck gets the damage boost (and a more immediate lifesteal if carded). Additionally, Buck can not only reduce the CD by 4 seconds (much like Pip), he can also reduce all CD's by 60% with Stomping Grounds IV... and more incredibly, he can have it IMMEDIATELY RESET ON A KILL. Seriously. 10 seconds to 0 seconds. ZERO... SECONDS.

Pip does not have that option.



Let's see:
-Buck has high health, which's counterbalanced by his shorter range, lower damage and higher model hitbox.
-Buck has high mobility, which's counterbalanced by his reload mechanic.
-Buck has a healing skill that's weaker than most on a slightly higher cooldown, what counterbalances this?
-Buck has a CC that slows one target for 1.5 seconds and gives bonus damage through the duration, but it's on a much higher cooldown than Pip's RMB that does practically the same, so what counterbalances this?

- Buck has really high damage, especially in OB34. He has to be close, but the damage is there.
- Buck's reload mechanic is managable in 3 ways (loadout, burn cards, weaving).
- Buck has the ability to instantly bring his heal off CD (0 seconds CD).
- Buck can get 60% CDR on Recovery as another loadout option.
- Buck's recovery can also activate carded Lifesteal if he so desires (compounds his healing)
- Buck gets a dmg boost on Net which he can reduce to incredibly low CD (where's Pip's dmg boost?)

Silbergeist
09-29-2016, 08:09 PM
Basically, yes... I think the reload (and limited clip) balances out his burst. Burst being:

Heroic Leap > Net Shot > Shot, Shot...
... and
Ultimate > Heroic Leap > Net Shot > Shot, Shot...

Before I go any further, I want to point out that Buck's Ultimate seems to be bugged in that it is not granting a full reload (which it clearly states it should). This would increase his sustained damage, but not change his burst. Just something to mention.

Anyway, he can do quite a bit of damage in those 6 shots, but if he fails, it's time to leave. You can mitigate your sustained damage by reload weaving (shoot > reload > shoot > reload) which is more effective with Quick Reload IV or Deft Hands I (or both... or even more with II or III).

The fact that he has an escape if needed (with Heroic Leap) is why he can't have more bullets (without work). Forcing the reload on him basically means you are really vulnerable and need to Heroic Leap away to fight another day, UNLESS you were reload weaving (or your Ult worked properly). In order to reload weave properly, you need some form of reload speed decrease, which you can get from the aforementioned card or burnout cards. This is something that increases player mastery, and gives a meaningful choice to the player as well ("how do you want to play?").




Actually, I've always come from this in regards to balance. This thread is about how he needs a little rework, and I feel he doesn't. I actually feel Buck is in a very good place and his strengths and weaknesses are "fair". I feel he IS balanced.




I am specifically saying he IS balanced in those areas. He has obvious strengths and obvious weaknesses. Put them together and you have some form of balance. More of this, less of that. You then utilize the choices that are available to every character to either shore up perceived weaknesses, or accentuate his positives, or a mix of both.

Even though every character has the same burn card choices available, the impact of each of those cards affect each of them differently because of their innate abilities. For example; Skye has a quick reload, and even then, taking Deft Hands is very useful for her. She doesn't need it, but it accentuates one of her positives (already strong reload). Her reload is drastically faster than Buck. Now Buck's reload is slow (and gets slower the more bullets he has to reload), so for him, you pick it to shore up a weakness. In both cases you are making the same choice for a completely different reason.

As for Pip vs Buck RMB. The answer (IMO) is quite obvious. Pip slows you by 50% for 2.5 seconds. Buck slows you for 50% for 1.5 seconds but increases damage by 30% during that time. Buck's is about setting up his brutal damage. Pips is about just slowing you down. Net gives Buck 2 shots within the default 1.5s window (.9 fire rate) at 30% increase... which takes his damage from 540 max to 700+ max (for those two shots). Increasing it by .6 with Tangled 2 can get you 3 shots at .9 per within a 2.1s Net Duration.

Imagine a world where Buck has more frequent access to a 30% damage buff and the ability to reload in-combat to take advantage of it. He would be an absolute destroyer. His health would have to be nerfed to compensate, and then he's just a budget version of Skye. The more tanky version of Buck gives him the ability to stick around and reload weave, earn a second Heroic Leap mid-combat (for escape), and get that one last shot in before he has to leave.




Again, Buck's burst is MUCH higher than both Pip and Barik. Yes, Barik has a similar shotgun and turrets, but also lacks the mobility to effectively use it to flank people (thus, he is not a flanker). His turrets must mark an opponent to get his buff (or double buff), while Buck can choose who he wants to mark and get the 30% right off the bat.

What is Barik's weakness? Almost zero mobility. Sure he can scoot away... but to where? Barik has his own strengths... the ability to control an area... very well. Barik being able to reload faster helps him hold an area... it definitely doesn't help him flank (I mean... it doesn't hurt his ability to flank, but if you play Barik as a flank, you use him to set up turrets behind the enemy who is pushing towards your team). So yea, Buck obviously can't hold an area as well, so I wouldn't expect his toolset to allow that. These are obvious tradeoffs.




Better is subjective. Pip is not a better flanker than Buck. This is a matter of fact. Pip is more versatile than Buck, that's for sure. Heal, damage, support (from range), etc.

Team composition is a real thing. If my team had Grover, Fernando, Barik, Viktor... I definitely would not play Pip. I'd play a flanker, and especially in this team comp, I would pick Buck (self sustain, tanky, and I know the rest of the group will be relatively close together).

If my team had Makoa, Grohk, Cassie, Viktor, I would most-likely pick Pip (then again, I also might pick Grover).

I don't outright disagree that SOME classes can be played different ways, but you aren't playing Skye as a Tank, or Cassie as a Healer. Some characters have a bit of versatility (Pip being one of them, Grover being another), but for the most part, classes are mostly set in stone with a few exceptions.




Where are you getting the bonus damage from Explosive Flask? Both in-game and on the official page it says:

"Fire an explosive flask that deals 150 damage and slows enemies by 50% for 2.5s."

Where is the damage boost? It's not in the base description, and it's not in the loadout cards.

Buck's heal is also a buff which can activate lifesteal (if you so choose to card it). Pip also cards his, but he has to hit an enemy with something first. Buck can just activate and then damage.

Yes, Pip can activate his more often, because Buck gets the damage boost (and a more immediate lifesteal if carded). Additionally, Buck can not only reduce the CD by 4 seconds (much like Pip), he can also reduce all CD's by 60% with Stomping Grounds IV... and more incredibly, he can have it IMMEDIATELY RESET ON A KILL. Seriously. 10 seconds to 0 seconds. ZERO... SECONDS.

Pip does not have that option.




- Buck has really high damage, especially in OB34. He has to be close, but the damage is there.
- Buck's reload mechanic is managable in 3 ways (loadout, burn cards, weaving).
- Buck has the ability to instantly bring his heal off CD (0 seconds CD).
- Buck can get 60% CDR on Recovery as another loadout option.
- Buck's recovery can also activate carded Lifesteal if he so desires (compounds his healing)
- Buck gets a dmg boost on Net which he can reduce to incredibly low CD (where's Pip's dmg boost?)

About Pip's bonus damage, just tested it on Shooting Range, and unless it's just a bug, he gains quite a good bonus damage on the first shot. From 600 his shot does 780. Buck on the other hand deals 632 from his raw 550. EDIT: Must be a Shooting Range bug, he should do 715 damage.

About Buck's supreme, the bug where the ammo didn't reload has been fixed with OB34, you should check it out, it's great.

I really think Buck's burst's already counterbalanced by his shorter range and bigger character model hitbox, so his reload counterbalances his mobility+tanky style, which makes Buck really powerful and as such needs some stopping once in a while.

Now, about the rest, if you really believe Buck's balanced, then I can't say anything else to change your mind, neither can you say anything else to change mine, I think he's a little weaker than the average roster, or just some character's are a little stronger than they should, either way, some changes need to take place. My ideas are the one's I've said here, nothing more, nothing less, and I really like the reload's passive idea, but that's me. Anyway, it should be noticed that nearly everyone dislikes Buck, and that must have some logical source, it's nearly unanimous the opinion that he needs a buff. I don't think he needs a rework, like OP's suggesting, I just think he needs those little buffs I've talked about, which would certaily not please everyone who says he's weak, but would certainly make him better.

It caught my attention you didn't discuss much about Buck's Regeneration. Are you OK with it? Or do you think it actually needs some changes?

kargon
09-29-2016, 09:56 PM
About Pip's bonus damage, just tested it on Shooting Range, and unless it's just a bug, he gains quite a good bonus damage on the first shot. From 600 his shot does 780. Buck on the other hand deals 632 from his raw 550. EDIT: Must be a Shooting Range bug, he should do 715 damage.

Yeah, not sure if that is a bug or not. Hopefully we will find out in future patches.


About Buck's supreme, the bug where the ammo didn't reload has been fixed with OB34, you should check it out, it's great.

I've definitely been playing him. Maybe I've just conditioned myself to reload before using it. I should have paid more attention. NICE!


Now, about the rest, if you really believe Buck's balanced, then I can't say anything else to change your mind, neither can you say anything else to change mine, I think he's a little weaker than the average roster, or just some character's are a little stronger than they should, either way, some changes need to take place. My ideas are the one's I've said here, nothing more, nothing less, and I really like the reload's passive idea, but that's me. Anyway, it should be noticed that nearly everyone dislikes Buck, and that must have some logical source, it's nearly unanimous the opinion that he needs a buff. I don't think he needs a rework, like OP's suggesting, I just think he needs those little buffs I've talked about, which would certaily not please everyone who says he's weak, but would certainly make him better.

Right now, I don't find him weak in any way. I don't find him overtly strong either. I'm still putting more and more time with him every day (I play him almost exclusively). I have games where I go near 30-0, and then games where I go 15-10... but the poorer games are when our team usually has weak chemistry/coordination.

I'm doing a lot of experimentation with new loadouts (I'd be happy to list them if you are interested).


It caught my attention you didn't discuss much about Buck's Regeneration. Are you OK with it? Or do you think it actually needs some changes?

This doesn't stand out to me as a problem but I usually have a Recovery available after escaping so I pop it to expedite his healing. By the time I'm ready to jump back into a fight, it's ready to go again.

Silbergeist
09-30-2016, 06:26 AM
I'm doing a lot of experimentation with new loadouts (I'd be happy to list them if you are interested).

Of course, I'll try the shoot>reload one to see how it fairs.

kargon
09-30-2016, 01:41 PM
Of course, I'll try the shoot>reload one to see how it fairs.

Anything with Quick Reload III or IV will help with that. A QR III and Deft Hands I is preeeeettty nice. For this build, I typically run something more tanky, such as:

Quick Reload III (or IV)
Giga Siphon IV (40% Lifesteal during Recovery)
Deep Breath II (1s Recovery Duration - for Giga Siphon)
Reconstruction I (1s CDR on Recovery)
Stomping Ground II (or I - Reduce CD on all skills by 30% (or 15) on kill)

This is meant to be tanky, so as to stay in battle. Here I would pick either Haven I or Deft Hands I first. If the enemy doesn't have a lot of burst damage, I'd go Deft Hands. If they do, then Haven. If I went Deft Hands first, my next pick would usually be Life Rip (or Haven depending on how it's been going). If Haven first, then potentially Cauterize if I notice my flank targets have decent self-healing.

Stomping Ground is in this build because the CDs are pretty long (Net Shot and Recovery). It makes a decent difference, as some of the recovery time is burned while I'm eating hits in the back line.


Here's the one I've been experimenting with recently and it has proven to be QUITE fun:

Concussion IV (Reduce Net Shot CD by 4s)
Tangled II (Increase duration of Net shot by 0.6s)
Giga Siphon I (10% Lifesteal while Recovery is active - 4s duration)
Seismic Wave II (Reduce Heroic Leap CD by 1s)
Stomping Ground III (Reduce Active CDs by 45% on Kill)

The focus of this build is Net Shot down to 10s w/ a duration long enough to get 3 shots at 30% bonus. As mentioned, Buck's fire rate is 0.9s, so 2 shots is 1.8s. Tangled I adds 0.3s duration to Net Shot bringing it to 1.8s CD), but that isn't enough because, at minimum, there is going to be some delay between Net Shot casting and your first shot hitting.

So, if Net Shot hits, and your first shot hits .1s after, then your next shot hits .9 after that (1.0), then your next shot cannot hit until 1.9s minimum. My making the duration 2.1s, you have 0.3s of play. If you need a bit more, crank it to Vigor III for 2.4s, but if you play Buck enough I think you'll get the timing down to get 3 shots off in 2.1s.

I was experimenting with a solid Level 1 "filler" card, and while there are a few decent options, Giga Siphon is a good option and I think it outclasses Bully at every level (10% vs 8%). Aside from the 2% base difference at Level 1, Net Shot is a much longer default CD (14s) and Recovery is base 10s. Also, both of them require an activator (Net Shot must hit, Recovery must be active), one of which doesn't require aim. This means you can gain the Lifesteal benefit against any target after activation.

It's clear that Giga Siphon wins this battle outright.

Note:

Bully actually needs a buff (IMO). It should start at 12% and then go up 12% for every level (ending at 48%). This would beat Giga Siphon (with no aim requirement) at max 40%. Seems pretty fair. That being said, it opens up a combo of IV Bully and IV Giga Siphon (which has a double activator requirement, but gives you either 98% Lifesteal, or 40+19 Lifesteal... depending if it's multiplicative or additive - probably the later).

Seismic Wave II is nice because you bring your Heroic Leap CD down to 5s base (about a 17% decrease).

On a successful kill, you reduce all CD's by 45% with stomping ground, which basically halves your long CD's (Recovery / Net Shot). If you are successful at flanking, you'll be able to escape quicker, heal quicker, and be ready to flank again... quicker.


Anyway, give them a try!

daggerW
09-30-2016, 06:53 PM
I agree with Silbergeist. Buck really feels like a gimp person. As we know flankers is very close to the assasins - so hit and run is their main tactic. Bck didnt have anything that will be support him at this role. Healing? Oh [lease Irather take Fernando or Makoa. Close range dps? Hi there Skye. So he is not tank and his dps is rather low. I think that heshould be close to a thor from smite with his more enemies more dps passive.

FenexDragonis
09-30-2016, 07:20 PM
buck is very disappointing... back in the day he used to be alot of fun to play.. now hes just a 3k health attacker with low mobility and very limited range restriction

even his ult is kinda disappointing

MiuiKy
09-30-2016, 09:31 PM
Wow, nice wall test in page 1..
Anyway, in my account I've seen a Buck SO GOOD the guy literally carried us :v
Fucker did 87 eliminations! Our second best was Drogoz with 21!

FenexDragonis
09-30-2016, 11:44 PM
Wow, nice wall test in page 1..
Anyway, in my account I've seen a Buck SO GOOD the guy literally carried us :v
Fucker did 87 eliminations! Our second best was Drogoz with 21!

no one is saying buck is bad.. he just doesnt fit the flanker role.. and is a bit disappointing compared to other flankers.. maybe the other team was just bad?

hes the grover of flankers.... grover is not bad by any means.. but theres no circumstance where i would want a grover on my team over a pip ghrok or ying

Silbergeist
10-01-2016, 12:17 AM
He's not bad, but he's not a conventional flanker. I like what he is now, feels really like a Warrior from conventional MOBAs, and I dare say he's the only one fitting this role currently, but I really wanted that little more sustain on Regeneration, a sustain through damage reduction, that is. Would be great when flaking Cassies or in a duel with Androxus', as they're burst damage characters.

dusan4
10-01-2016, 06:25 AM
Bucks recovery should instantly restore 20% of his health upon activation. Recovery is kinda crappy rn.

BrandonB207
10-01-2016, 08:45 AM
I actually think Buck is fine. Maybe increase his shotgun dmg to 30 per pellet instead of 27? Buffing him too much would make him overpowered again.

PTLagger
10-01-2016, 11:16 PM
His kit and dmg are fine. It would be great if Buck reload 2 shell every second, so he need 3s total to do full reload.
Btw I think his jump should have x2 damage to deployables (700 dmg to them). In game we have anti-shield champs (Drogoz, Bomb King), why not have anti-deployables? His Jump seem fit with this