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Ellezard
09-24-2016, 04:13 PM
He has a lot of great cards that allow him to play a mobile and tanky shield playstyle while also dealing good damage with all the CDR cards (shield get hit, charge cooldown reduced. Kill, all cooldown reduced. Flat reduction on fire ball). They all also have high value on them.

Compared to the other tanks, his damage isn't even bad either with the constant flame-throw, fire ball and charge into their face over and over at low CD.

His shield is also the best one since the other shield can easily be flanked. On Fernando, you can easily just turn and walk around or charge to reposition while also keeping it up for the longest duration.

He also has one of the best game changing ult in the game that when used properly, can hard counter almost every ult, including that "Broken" Skye ult people keep complaining about.

And the other tanks are not even that bad either because they do really well in certain comp like double-tank comp. Fernando is just the best in both single and double tank comp that it's ridiculous.

He's also ridiculously easy to play so there's no "skill floor" claim to justify everything he does.

There's just no real weakness to this guy.

bvirus
09-24-2016, 04:29 PM
He has a lot of great cards that allow him to play a mobile and tanky shield playstyle while also dealing good damage with all the CDR cards (shield get hit, charge cooldown reduced. Kill, all cooldown reduced. Flat reduction on fire ball). They all also have high value on them.

Compared to the other tanks, his damage isn't even bad either with the constant flame-throw, fire ball and charge into their face over and over at low CD.

His shield is also the best one since the other shield can easily be flanked. On Fernando, you can easily just turn and walk around or charge to reposition while also keeping it up for the longest duration.

He also has one of the best game changing ult in the game that when used properly, can hard counter almost every ult, including that "Broken" Skye ult people keep complaining about.

And the other tanks are not even that bad either because they do really well in certain comp like double-tank comp. Fernando is just the best in both single and double tank comp that it's ridiculous.

He's also ridiculously easy to play so there's no "skill floor" claim to justify everything he does.

There's just no real weakness to this guy.

Yes, there is. Get Wrecker. Wrecker kills his shield fast, and he's vulnerable once it's down.

Also to claim that he's ridiculously easy to play kinda proves you haven't played with him at a high enough level. It's not the same type of skill needed to play Cassie or Androxus. It's more about situational awareness, knowing when to charge in, when to put your shield up, when to back off, when to use your ult, where to position yourself to protect people. Yes, he doesn't require aiming skill, but he does require tactical skill. But hey, it looks easy, so it must be easy. What do I know?

He's a great tank, no doubt. But just because he's good, it doesn't mean he's unbalanced. This is a radical idea, but have you considered that your difficulty in killing him might, just might, be because the person you're against who's using Fernando might be sort of smart and is playing him properly?

Ellezard
09-24-2016, 04:43 PM
Wrecker works against every shield so this is no special kind of weakness just for him. And even with his shield down, Fernando is still tankier than the other tanks because of his base stat (with exception being Ruckus with 50% damage reduction ability for 3 sec) and while his shield is up, with the "1k damage = charge CDR card", he can just spam charge to get out of the bad spot and reposition over and over, something other tanks can't do.

It also doesn't change the fact that Fernando shield is the best shield.

Barik shield is a deploy and can easily be flanked. You will need another tank to cover for this weakness.

Makao shield has super long CD and much shorter Duration.

Fernando has lower CD, longer duration, higher durability and doesn't leave room for flanking.

And he is ridiculously easy because he is 100% about decision making, not execution. You only need a certain amount of skill and knowledge to be able to make decision. You need to constantly make plays for execution. Cassie looks easy if you play her like a derp shoot-shoot-shoot type but her current best build, the Disengage-Roll build becomes a lot harder to play properly because you are heavily punished if you miss that one shot, making her execution extremely important but also game-breaking rewarding.

I can just compare my time on Makao with him. Although I can carry games with Makao with good hooks, Fernando is way more consistent for the same result when I do play him because he has much better tools in general. I just have to play smart, save my ult to deal with stuffs like Skye and profit from having the best tank kit.

Laserman
09-24-2016, 04:48 PM
I feel like fernando does nothing but be a walking shieldbot without the card to make his basic attack slow enemies. Especially at the current speed you walk when using your flamethrower

bvirus
09-24-2016, 05:18 PM
Wrecker works against every shield so this is no special kind of weakness just for him. And even with his shield down, Fernando is still tankier than the other tanks because of his base stat (with exception being Ruckus with 50% damage reduction ability for 3 sec) and while his shield is up, with the "1k damage = charge CDR card", he can just spam charge to get out of the bad spot and reposition over and over, something other tanks can't do.

It also doesn't change the fact that Fernando shield is the best shield.

Barik shield is a deploy and can easily be flanked. You will need another tank to cover for this weakness.

Makao shield has super long CD and much shorter Duration.

Fernando has lower CD, longer duration, higher durability and doesn't leave room for flanking.

And he is ridiculously easy because he is 100% about decision making, not execution. You only need a certain amount of skill and knowledge to be able to make decision. You need to constantly make plays for execution. Cassie looks easy if you play her like a derp shoot-shoot-shoot type but her current best build, the Disengage-Roll build becomes a lot harder to play properly because you are heavily punished if you miss that one shot, making her execution extremely important but also game-breaking rewarding.

I can just compare my time on Makao with him. Although I can carry games with Makao with good hooks, Fernando is way more consistent for the same result when I do play him because he has much better tools in general. I just have to play smart, save my ult to deal with stuffs like Skye and profit from having the best tank kit.

So, you're saying we should nerf Fernando again because all you need to do is play smart with him? As if everyone does this.

Fernando can be great, or he can be nothing but a nice juicy target to build up ult charge. It depends, as everything in this game does, on the player, the team composition and, probably most importantly, the situation. Every week, someone whines about the last champion that annoyed them.

Wanna kill a Fernando? Get wrecker, then kill everyone else on his team first, then focus him down. That's all it takes. Even good Fernando players will die to this.

Ellezard
09-24-2016, 05:25 PM
We should nerf Fernando until he's brought down to a decent tank level, around Makao level.

bvirus
09-24-2016, 05:28 PM
We should nerf Fernando until he's brought down to a decent tank level, around Makao level.

Pretty sure Makoa is better than Fernando in a couple of areas - his hook is beastly, and his shield is actually better in terms of shape than Fernando's. His attack is higher as well, and Makoa can wreck most non-tanks with the hook-attack combo.

Maybe we should nerf Makoa.

RightToBearArms
09-24-2016, 05:39 PM
Fernando at a casual level is terrible, and I assume at high levels if he's on a team they just build Wrecker and that's gg for him.

Ellezard
09-24-2016, 05:41 PM
Pretty sure Makoa is better than Fernando in a couple of areas - his hook is beastly, and his shield is actually better in terms of shape than Fernando's. His attack is higher as well, and Makoa can wreck most non-tanks with the hook-attack combo.

Maybe we should nerf Makoa.

Bad ult thanks to all the damage nerfs.
Long CD shield with short duration.
Damage dropoff issues so don't expect to kill people at range outside Fernando range.
Lower mobility since he can't spam shell spin like Fernando charge because majority of his cards are bad.

Yeahhh.... No. Outside hooking to stomp damager out of position, Fernando does everything.


Fernando at a casual level is terrible, and I assume at high levels if he's on a team they just build Wrecker and that's gg for him.

Considering pro teams always have him around and put him at S+ tier along with Evie though...

Miragen
09-24-2016, 07:40 PM
He's a good shield, but he lacks in damage.
Ruckus is not a good shield, but he has damage.
Makoa is a lesser shield, but better damage.
Barik has a decent shield, and decent damage.

He's overperforming in the shield part, but lacks elsewhere i'd say.

I just had a pretty good game as Fernando vs a Barik, at the end I had nearly 400k shielding and 90k damage, as where the Barik had 200k shielding but 140k damage, so they both have their strenghts and weaknesses.

You'd obviously need a bigger sample size to really draw any conclusions but I assume Fernando is going to be a better shield where Barik is going to do better damage.

ICantUse0piuM
09-25-2016, 03:55 PM
I play Drogoz about 50% of the time, unless my stupid teammates are doing their moronic Cassie, Kinnessa, Viktor triple threat of failure shit. Anyways, I just buy wrecker and have no problem with Fernando.

Roster
09-25-2016, 07:15 PM
Bomb king have so many bonus versus shield and ruckus with wrecker 1 is enough.
Fernando was far better before him nerf ( better shield / better duration of him shield / better cooldown for him fireball)

ProfessorFart
09-25-2016, 11:17 PM
Fernando does anything but over perform. In fact, as I've stated before, he's quite underpowered. The reason he's used in the competitive scene and has high win rates is because of how vital his defenses are despite how non-existent they can be to wrecker. I find it laughable that you stated:

There's just no real weakness to this guy.
because there's PLENTY for better and for worse.

The good weaknesses:
These are the collection of weaknesses that I'm perfectly fine with as they exist by the design of his character and the designation of his role and can be exploited to outplay a Fernando. Under most cases, they should also apply to the other frontliners.

-Low effective range. Something shared amongst everyone in his class. Unless the fight is taking place in closed spaces, this is a weakness that can be exploited by a vast majority of the roster, especially the damage champions. Just watch out for those fireballs.

-Low mobility both in movement speed and movement skills. Same as the first, though for Fernando, he experiences a significant drop in speed when firing. This isn't much of an issue since fights for objectives take place in small spaces where the front liner class feels at home.

-Larger hitboxes makes him an easier to hit target. Only Barik breaks this mold because he's not a real tank, although he fits the class for being able to secure objectives with his ability kit.

-Cannot attack with the shield up. This prevents Fernando from intercepting a flanker or a vital target unless he closes up his shield and moves to engage them.

The bad weaknesses:
These are weaknesses that make Fernando an underpowered champion and their existence only serves to hurt his performance. There's no way for one to work around these weaknesses; not by loadout, outplaying the enemy, or by items. These are the most worthy of being ranted about.

-Low(est) damage (the only one who can deal less than him is Grover at close range). In a low ttk game environment, 400 dps is inexcusable for Fernando who already has a handful of legitimate weaknesses that can be exploited without items. Sure, he can kill a low health target in a matter of seconds, but that's more than enough time for a flanker to zip in and out, or for a damage champion to distance themselves all the while several other champions can do it in less time and from greater distances. He also moves significantly slower when firing like Ruckus, who is capable of melting Fernando with the sheer minigun damage. Isn't the frontline class supposed to be, I don't know, the kings of close range combat that can melt through players who either waltz too close or don't pay attention?

-Items. This is just insult to injury for Fernando, despite it not being a guaranteed case. First off, the bane of all frontliners other than Ruckus, Wrecker. This just doesn't make it easier to go through shields, it's high bonus values out right obliterates their existence in just a few seconds. Fernando's shield, which is the strongest currently, can still be bought down in a matter of seconds with focus fire which begs a few questions. "Why nerf the duration to 10 seconds?" "Why have a duration to start with? It just puts that remaining shield health to waste." "Why nerf it's durability after this burncard revamp?" Then there are the damage resistance cards, which is Blast Shields in his case, which turn his already pathetic damage into a garbage low of 280 dps. Worst of all, the damage resistance case could probably arise because of a more threatening AoE damage champion like Evie and Drogoz, meaning Fernando suffers for something he isn't doing: being a nuisance with his damage.

His usage:
Fernando is just irreplaceable by any other frontline champion and never will be unless he's nerfed beyond viability. His shield is the strongest and most flexible out of all the frontliners and that's basically the reason he's still being picked despite how powerful wrecker can be and how lacking his capabilities are elsewhere. The large health pool just helps him last a bit longer when he's trying to fight back or wait for his shield. Even in the face of multiple players going up to "+150% damage to shields," some protection is better than none and Fernando provides the best level of that "some" protection which is why he's in the top tier. So if his only important asset doesn't last very long, why is he used in the pro scene and still wins?

Because the Fernando that wins is the Fernando that got carried by the better team. In the pro scene, I highly doubt that he is the one that carries the team.


Bomb king have so many bonus versus shield and ruckus with wrecker 1 is enough.
Fernando was far better before him nerf ( better shield / better duration of him shield / better cooldown for him fireball)

To be fair, unlike Fernando's other nerfs since CB30, the Fireball cooldown nerfs were necessary as the current burn card system would've dropped the cooldown to 1.6 seconds. Now, Incinerate IV and Chronos III puts Fireball's cooldown at 2.7 seconds, just a tad off of 2.8 seconds made from pre-patch 33's Incinerate IV and Chronos combo.

Zeleen
09-26-2016, 06:28 AM
He feels pretty S tier to me however, I don't play him because I like a challenge so I prefer Barik.

That being said, to those who think he's weak(rofl): Do you even heat transfer brah?

Miragen
09-26-2016, 07:21 AM
Don't think heat transfer is really that valuable, charge so you can do what, upto a 1000 hp shield?

Ellezard
09-26-2016, 08:37 AM
Heat transfer is what allows him to be really mobile in-combat with his shield up so he can reposition whenever. If you want, you can add that 1k shield on dash card and spam his charge over and over in the middle of the capture point while rotating between his shield and charge shield to take as much damage as possible for the team. You can easily earn up to 4 more dash with that card alone at rank 3 or 4 so when combined with the charge shield and the initial dash, Fernando has 5000 extra shield health you have to plow through.

From what I get from people trying to say he's fine in the current state.

1) Wrecker
2) he doesn't deal damage

but I'm going to have to repeat it again

1) Wrecker works against every tank so other tanks are even weaker against wrecker

And because of his shield health, for every bullet he takes on his shield, his team is not taking it. With how powerful Evie/Andro is and how easy it is for people to get stomped by Skye because of how bad they are, Fernando forcing people to shoot his shield is what allow his team to perform with ease. Every other shield except Barik ult shield will be down before Fernando's shield goes down.

and

2) You pick a front liner because you want someone to eat all the fire while taking capture point. Outside Fernando and possibly Makao, you need at least 2 tanks for it to be good. Fernando is just someone you just pick and voila! Perfect tank for every possible team comp you can think of.

RainOFrags
09-26-2016, 08:43 AM
nerf him then

bvirus
09-26-2016, 11:00 AM
Because the Fernando that wins is the Fernando that got carried by the better team. In the pro scene, I highly doubt that he is the one that carries the team.

None of the credit if you win, all the blame if you lose. The life of a tank.

And in the pro scene, there's no such thing as "carrying". Everyone needs to pull their weight, or you lose.

Roster
09-26-2016, 12:13 PM
Fernando have him weakness like all tanks ,just look at ProfessorFat paragraph.

Ellezard
09-26-2016, 12:23 PM
Fernando have him weakness like all tanks ,just look at ProfessorFat paragraph.

Universal weakness is universal. Every character must have their own unique weakness. Fernando's only real "Weakness" is that he has the least dps out of all tank, which does NOT hinder him in anyway in his intended role to be the shield for his team and take points.

A weakness is supposed to hinder someone from doing something. Skye for example, can't jump up to high places due to lack of actual mobility move. THat's an example of a real weaknes she cannot overcome. Fernando has none of this.

ProfessorFart
09-26-2016, 07:36 PM
Universal weakness is universal. Every character must have their own unique weakness. Fernando's only real "Weakness" is that he has the least dps out of all tank, which does NOT hinder him in anyway in his intended role to be the shield for his team and take points.

A weakness is supposed to hinder someone from doing something. Skye for example, can't jump up to high places due to lack of actual mobility move. THat's an example of a real weaknes she cannot overcome. Fernando has none of this.

Saying that Fernando has no personal weaknesses only serves to prove your lack of understanding him. You also seem to be contradicting your own argument by acknowledging his low damage and saying it does not hinder him yet you say he doesn't have any unique weaknesses. Fernando's lackluster damage contradicts his frontline position as that class as a whole is supposed to have enough firepower to evict other players off the objective which is an enclosed space. His shield just acts as a means to help him stay on it when the opposing team is making a push.

Fernando's personal weaknesses compared to the other champions in his class should be very evident to those who play as and against him.

-Range: Barik, Ruckus, and Makoa all have the advantage of attacking targets out of their effective range with a noticeable fall off damage. Barik's turrets in particular can target and fire at medium range while Makoa can bring in champions closer to him. His Fireball aside, Fernando deals zero damage outside of it's available attack range which means when you're zoning him you don't have to worry about chip damage, just the fireballs that get tossed once every few seconds.

-Mobility: Barik and Makoa have the advantage of maintaining full movement speed while using their weapons and as mentioned, Makoa can use his anchor to pull back enemies. Fernando himself suffers a significant loss in speed of 50% when using his primary weapon which can make it easier for enemy champions to escape it's range to zone or disengage a fight with him. Ruckus shares this weakness to a much greater extent, however, it's offset by the sheer damage of his miniguns, their superior attack range, and the fact that he can use his movement ability and continue firing. Fernando can partially offset this weakness by using Hot Pursuit and Running start which, at maximum level, grant +40% movement speed after Fireball and Charge which when used while firing his weapon will net his movement speed as 90% of his base speed. Ideally, this is meant to hinder his ability to pursue and juke targets while he's using his weapon.

-Damage: Yes, this again. So, Fernando's primary weapon has limited range and it's use slows him down significantly to hinder his ability to pursue targets, and you're saying his low damage isn't a hindrance? When it comes to Fernando his ability to stay on the point in the face of long range attacks is granted by his shield, which prevents the enemy team from wearing both him and his backline down from afar. But once they are up close and on the point you should be fighting for it as in, shoot back at them and get them off the objective that so rightfully belongs to you. This is where his low damage hinders him because a knight doesn't protect just providing shelter with his shield, he is also supposed to exterminate the intruders with his weapon. Fernando's primary means of defending is his shield to obviously block out damage, but his most reliable means of defending is using his weapon to forcibly evict the attacking team off his point if they break through his shield or they are too close for him to effectively defend with it. If he's not dealing enough damage for that to happen well, then he's not exactly very good at defending at that point now is he?

Downplaying a weakness simply because it's universal is ludicrous as it's still a weakness that exists and thereby can be exploited. The universal strengths and weaknesses are just as important as personal ones because they set a general bar for what champions under a certain classification should or shouldn't be capable of. Their personal weaknesses for the most part are just a form of their universal weaknesses and to an extent can be worked around.

Sure, the situation implied seems hopeless for Skye since she cannot reach a target perched up on a bridge. However, Skye's crossbow can still deal an okay amount of damage outside of her preferred close range while her poison bolts have pin-point accuracy and a very long maximum range (not that any Skye player would try to snipe people with it) and thus she can hit the target from where she stands. If anything this sudden ambush would more than likely flush someone out of what they thought was a safe spot in a state of panic. While she can't overcome it, she can certainly work around it.

All of what Fernando has sounds overpowered on paper but in practice you can only take some of it and what ultimately determines whether or not he stays on the point is the effectiveness of his backline not solely himself. While he can move and reposition the shield, he does not have jurisdiction over what his backline does and that can lead to them succeeding or failing in cases he has little to no influence in. At the end of the day, Androxus and Evie are picked because they are wanted; but Fernando is picked because he is needed. He provides something all serious teams are looking for, the best shield, so him being a top pick is never going to change unless he's nerfed to the point where the other front-line characters can literally do his job better. However, that alone does not determine his actual performance as a whole, especially since you only look at one aspect of it. Saying Fernando is overpowered because his of what his shield is capable of is akin to accusing someone of crimes they never committed.

MiuiKy
09-27-2016, 12:57 AM
Fernando can be countered with a good Bomb King + Wrecker item combo, enough said.